Linking to the Genesis, as far as the movie makes nods to, the creatures of Midian were all different primeval races that existed thousands of years ago, that no doubt were the inspiration for many myths and legends(demons, Medusa, vampires...). In Genesis, it mentions that Moses lead an army to destory Midian, and all men and beast were killed(with the exception of virgin women and female children, which were given to the Israeli warriors as spoils). In context with the film, men and beast is almost the same thing, as that's probably what they were referring to, the Midianites being inhuman creatures. In the Bible(mostly Old Testament), there are many cases of non-Jewish/pagan tribes being completely wiped out of existence because they were deemed impure, sinners and were thought to be a cramp in unifying the world under God's law. The flashback of ancient Midian's destruction parallel's Decker's goal for genetic cleansing. Decker's goal was similar to the Israeli's during the destruction of ancient Midian. Of course, you could also bring up every other case of genetic/ethnic cleansing(Jewish people would fall on the opposite side during WWII, you had the whole thing in Bosnia, just to name a few).
In the end, I don't see it being strictly a religious thing, more than a human thing. The movie says that, each time, it was human agenda, fear and envy that caused their need for destruction(killing those different). It's what initiated the original Midian's destruction, and it's what initiated new Midian's destruction. Humans are the monsters, not the Nightbreed, because we can't accept differences. We always want to try to find a way to convert those different to us. Like Dr. House said regarding Circle Queens, that anything within the circle is acceptable, but everything outside has to be broken and "fixed" just so it could be let into the circle. They don't think that, maybe, those outside of the circle are happy in their own way. Their logic forbids them from seeing that, because they tell themselves that you can only be happy if you are within the circle. That's how people are, sadly.
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TheSolarSailor
13 years ago
I agree, laeyisoracle, that the basic story being told in both present day and ancient history is of a Midian that was destroyed because it contained something that does not fit inside of the box standards and normalcy that the now dominant human race has created for itself. This is not up for debate and is a point made very clear in the film. What I find fascinating is the origins of the Nightbreed themselves and how so many possess supernatural abilities and live beyond death. Peloquin himself seems to be like Boone, a transformed creature that has become something more than he once was. Boone used to be human and still retains his original appearance, much like Peloquin used to be normal by the standards of his own race and still appears that way. But we both know that there is much more to them now. What is this gift that enables them to become unbound by life as we know it? What started it? Was it considered by others of their race to be a gift or a curse? Who is Baphomet? What are his plans? Does he really only wish to protect the remnants of the great tribes, or does he have larger plans yet to be revealed? Why is his body broken and dismembered? What was Baphomet and why was he defeated in the ancient times (I assume that his current state is from a defeat)? Who defeated him? Who are Baphomet's enemies? I brought up the Sons of God earlier in the thread because it is an idea that can so easily play in to this fictional world of the Nightbreed. Maybe Baphomet was a fallen angel? It is a fascinating idea and the story is just screaming to be told. I will never understand why Clive Barker has never returned to tell us any more.
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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?
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CountVladDracula
12 years ago
You're trying too hard to religify this. Baphomet was a Christian propaganda corruption of The Horned God of Pagan religions. It was a corruption of an older Latin name in an anti-Pegan smear campaign and later was reused for nineteenth century occultism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet
Sometimes he is depicted as a dragon. Today he is used as a symbol of religious persecution because he was an excuse for many needless Pagan deaths during the crusades. Since the entire story is about judging that which is different as evil out of fear and jealousy I strongly suspect this is the reason Clive Barker chose the name.
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CountVladDracula
12 years ago
You should watch the VHS tape release from 1991. Clive Barker does an introduction to make it clear that none of the creatures of Midian or Baphomet are truly satanic / evil. That was kind of the point... In fact to quote his introduction "Hiding from their cruelest enemy... man." "Where deadmen can be heroes and monsters beautiful."
What you are doing in trying to demonize the breed is exactly what the story's real villains do. Here is the story's creator's own words about them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ccfaFZmcQ
They were meant to be perceived as victims of persecution not "secret evil" or you entirely miss the point of the story much like those that caused the film to be cut to shreds.
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TheSolarSailor
12 years ago
I've got the VHS and I have seen the interview at the start of it numerous times back in the day. I made it clear earlier that the views offered up are from outside religions and their attempts to explain the existence of these creatures and their obvious abilities to live beyond death, as Rachel puts it to Lori in the film. There is an element of the supernatural with the Nightbreed, at least with some of them and certainly with Baphomet himself. It's interesting and fun to connect this with religion (not in the sense of it being religious, but rather in how religion sets out to explain them away as the forces of evil, Satan, etc.), as it all coexists in this world of the Nightbreed. No one here is claiming that the Bible or Christianity is the final authority and certainly not trying to religify it all, but instead just debating and speculating on the way it all links together, and/or what Baphomet in the film actually is. It's fun to speculate about the sons of God as referenced in the Bible, as something could have happened at a point in early history that inspired the story, even if it is distorted by religion into something that better props up their own belief system. You aren't telling me anything here other than the obvious. I've read the script. I've read the novel. I've seen the interviews. I am not missing the point. This thread was trending into things that aren't explained in the film. Again, it's fun to speculate. Besides, Clive set this up himself by purposely using names such as Midian and Baphomet, thus drawing in religion to the story himself.
- - - - - - -
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?
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CountVladDracula
12 years ago
Of course there's something of the supernatural but it does not mean Satanic. They are not evil so biblical Satanic isn't the answer. The Bible took a lot of words and names from other lore. Hell for example comes from the Norse Goddess of the dead Hel. So there's a chance there might be some "lost religion" that got absorbed into Christianity.
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TheSolarSailor
12 years ago
In other words, we're on the same page and have been all along. I find the concept of Baphomet in this film fascinating. As I stated earlier in the thread, who are his enemies? I don't think he means humans specifically, though I could be wrong as we are given next to nothing on the god's background. But I wish we knew why his body was broken and why parts of him are missing. I always imagined there being a much larger war going on in some other realm where he may have possibly once existed. Others like him may have done this to him. Barker himself writes in his book, The Nightbreed Chronicles,
Many of the Breed believe he is related to the entity the Naturals call the Devil. In essence, it is the assumption of this faction that Baphomet is a fallen pretender to some celestial throne, and that under the guise of gathering the Breed together, the God is in fact gathering an army for storming the citadel he was exiled from. The God's silence on this and every other matter is perfect proof of his power
These things all exist in this world Barker wrote about, and religion is merely one skewered idea that stems from these events that have taken place. That is why I find it all so interesting. All we know is what man has written about these things, but what's the real story behind Baphomet? It's interesting stuff.
I wish that Clive would not have given up on telling this story. The movie may have flopped back in the day, but he really should have continued the books. Every now and then, there is a snippet from Barker where he sheds a bit of light on some of the things that would have happened or gives a tad bit of insight on things, such as the quote above. Another is the role of Ashberry and how the next installment would have taken place many years later, not the next day. Sigh, such a rich world left unexplored.
- - - - - - -
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?
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CountVladDracula
12 years ago
Linking to the Genesis, as far as the movie makes nods to, the creatures of Midian were all different primeval races that existed thousands of years ago, that no doubt were the inspiration for many myths and legends(demons, Medusa, vampires...). In Genesis, it mentions that Moses lead an army to destory Midian, and all men and beast were killed(with the exception of virgin women and female children, which were given to the Israeli warriors as spoils). In context with the film, men and beast is almost the same thing, as that's probably what they were referring to, the Midianites being inhuman creatures. In the Bible(mostly Old Testament), there are many cases of non-Jewish/pagan tribes being completely wiped out of existence because they were deemed impure, sinners and were thought to be a cramp in unifying the world under God's law. The flashback of ancient Midian's destruction parallel's Decker's goal for genetic cleansing. Decker's goal was similar to the Israeli's during the destruction of ancient Midian. Of course, you could also bring up every other case of genetic/ethnic cleansing(Jewish people would fall on the opposite side during WWII, you had the whole thing in Bosnia, just to name a few).
In the end, I don't see it being strictly a religious thing, more than a human thing. The movie says that, each time, it was human agenda, fear and envy that caused their need for destruction(killing those different). It's what initiated the original Midian's destruction, and it's what initiated new Midian's destruction. Humans are the monsters, not the Nightbreed, because we can't accept differences. We always want to try to find a way to convert those different to us. Like Dr. House said regarding Circle Queens, that anything within the circle is acceptable, but everything outside has to be broken and "fixed" just so it could be let into the circle. They don't think that, maybe, those outside of the circle are happy in their own way. Their logic forbids them from seeing that, because they tell themselves that you can only be happy if you are within the circle. That's how people are, sadly.
You hit the nail on the head.
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