Yes, I think you're right; sexual abuse is part of her backstory. I understand you completely with what you're saying about use of such elements in a character and in storytelling, vis-a-vis, the sexiness of said character. I get that you're not commenting on real people, but on the perception of a character. I think use of those elements in backstories are overplayed, and often cheaply. Ryder's story is an example of that, and it's a mark against the writing that it just uses something like that without unpacking it in a more "appropriate" storyline. With that said, I must confess that while I think it's a bit "hacky," it doesn't really affect my enjoyment of the film Dr. No overall. Nor does it stop me from enjoying Andress in the role. I think it's because, while the element of sexual abuse in her backstory is used too cavalierly, it's a small element of the film, so it doesn't taint the overall movie.
Hm. This is a complex subject and I might need to contemplate it longer for a more full discussion, but if you want to, we can pursue it.
The nutshell is that I see your point, but it doesn't really change whether or not I find the character sexy. I suppose it's because I consider SA as an element of a person/character, but believe that it should not define a person or hold them back from being sexual beings or sexy. With that said, I also see where creating a character with that backstory and using that character for T&A is unwise or tawdry.
The '67 spoof of CR is underrated - I think it's hilarious and the chaos of it might be insane, but it's fun insane - and, yes, Andress is gorgeous there, too. That film is actually also chock-a-block full of sexy women!
Good point about soap operas, although I've never seen more than a few minutes of any of the "classic" soaps. If you're counting Downton Abbey...
This might be a minor/semantic point, but I'd push back on calling Burton's films "campy" except for a few points within each film. They are, mostly, gothic, dark, and psychologically interesting. Heightened reality? Yes. Stylised? *Very*. But campy? I wouldn't say so. Certainly not on the level of the '66 Batman. Heck, I wouldn't even quite put Batman Forever in that tier. Incidentally, one of the reasons that Batman & Robin doesn't work (in my opinion) is because it's still fairly violent, and if they had embraced the cheesiness just a bit more (and had Clooney go full Adam West) it would actually work better as a goof.
I 100% agree with the Babe Henchwomen on that show, though! Not only are they interchangeable with each other, you could swap them out for a number of Babe Henchwomen on Star Trek (TOS), too, and nobody'd notice!
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HarveyManFredSin (4877)
2 years ago
Thank you for indulging this topic. These are the type of fun deep-dive movie-specific discussions I miss from the IMDb.
I may say more later on this topic, but right now what I'm going to discuss arguably fits more on a 007 board.
There are three 007 films that deal with characters who've suffered SA, that I feel tackle this thorny topic with varying degrees of success. Firstly, there's Licence to Kill, an underrated Bond film IMHO, that features one of the least appreciated Bond ladies, the classically beautiful Priscilla Barnes, as Felix Leiter's bride, Della. In this film, it's her murder, on her wedding day, that basically serves as the catalyst for 007 to go rogue and get his vengeance on Sanchez and his men. Whilst this is classical fridging, I'm mostly okay with this from a necessary story-angle. Fridging is a hackneyed and arguably misogynist form of storytelling, but it nevertheless makes sense here in order to motivate Bond. What I do find entirely unnecessary and egregious, is the implication that Della was gang-raped before she was murdered. It's apparently not enough that this entirely innocent character is killed, but that she must also experience one of the most horrific forms of brutalisation beforehand. It's too much, and completely unnecessary.
Then there's the extremely underrated Quantum of Solace, where he have Camille Montes, a character who was orphaned and sexually abused by the film's secondary villain, General Medrano, as a child. Child SA is particularly disturbing, BUT, Montes played by the stunning Olga Kurylenko IS sexy to me because her character finally gets vengeance for her childhood trauma. She *doesn't* die at the end, like so many Bond Girls, and, moreover, she comes into her own during the final fight scene, without having to depend on Bond. They both help one another out. And so, we leave her strong and defiant, her arc resolved, rather than a brutalised victim who is denied justice.
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HarveyManFredSin (4877)
2 years ago
Finally, there is Severine in Skyfall, a 007 film I regard as rather overrated in contrast to the aforementioned James Bond movies. She is a former child sex trafficking victim, and a rather colourless character who's simply there for Bond to sleep with. Not only does Bond creep up on her in the shower, but a few scenes later, she is unceremoniously murdered by Raoul Silva. She is a sacrificial victim. She never gets vengeance or a sense of relief after all the trauma she lived through.
Although SA is a problematic trope in pretty much all genre films, in QOS, there is a point to it, in the sense that it informs the victimised character, and she isn't finally defined by her victimhood, but ultimately is allowed to get vengeance/even draw upon her horrible experiences to gain some sort of strength (which is emphatically not to say that one must be traumatised to be strong). In LTK and Skyfall, SA is either a basis to push the male hero into action, or it serves no real purpose other than to compound a female character's already tragic story.
Of course, in real-life, people are a complex mix of various experiences and traits, and hopefully those of us who are good, don't judge or define anyone who is themselves a SA survivor, but in the context of a piece of fiction, especially if they're a supporting character, a cipher even, within a movie, that's one of the few facets we know them by, so, like I say, it's hard to feel sexual attraction to a character defined by such sex-related trauma/exploitation, no matter how classically beautiful they may be.
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Ace_Spade (9658)
2 years ago
I agree regarding the deep-dives and the old IMDb boards. I don't go there anymore. I was 95% there for the boards, and the other 5% was cast lists and upcoming projects, both of which I can get from other sites.
Della and Felix getting wrecked in Licence to Kill is hard to watch. I'm not convinced Fridging is limited to female characters. There are plenty of male characters who serve a similar purpose: given little actual story time/character development before being wiped out to motivate the hero. I think it stings more with female characters, though, because there aren't as many female heroes who are being motivated.
As for the "appropriateness" of Della's fate in LtK, I agree that it's probably unnecessary, but Benicio del Toro does such a perfectly creepy villain that it kinda works. This guy's a 100% monster - a true psychopath. LtK goes really dark, especially for Bond, but it's a consistent tone. Also, while the brutality is high, we the audience aren't supposed to feel it's "sexy" or see Della as a sex object, so while I agree it might not have been needed, it's not "weird".
We definitely disagree on Quantum of Solace. If you like it, that's fine, but it's my least favourite Bond movie. I will grant this: Kurylenko did a good job and her character worked for the reasons you state. Interestingly, like Della, Kurylenko also isn't really sexualised. She is perhaps the only "Bond Girl" to not be a romantic/sexual interest for James. While plenty of other Bond Girls have full characters, arcs, and points in the story, they all also have some attraction to 007.
I'll give you Skyfall 100%. Much as I enjoy that film, that character is given a tragic, SA-fuelled backstory; then she sleeps with Bond; and then she's shot. It's exploitative and "sensationalist," and it doesn't work. If they gave her a full storyline or more than five seconds of screentime, maybe it could've worked. But she's just there to sleep with Bond and get shot. It's not even effective writing because we don't even get enough of a connection to her to care when she gets shot. We're almost right there with Bond's line about a waste of scotch (although it's obvious from Craig's excellent work that Bond is pissed about her death, he just isn't going to blink in front of Silva).
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HarveyManFredSin (4877)
2 years ago
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree with respect to Quantum of Solace, but I appreciate that I'm in the vast minority with that one, and that it's one of the least favourite 007 films among most fans.
Still, it does appear that we agree on the topic at hand (i.e. the portrayal of women and reference to sexual assault, within pop culture, specifically Bond).
I must admit, Benicio del Toro delivers his line "We gave her a great honeymoon" with such memorable relish, it's a shame that it's a reference to gang-rape (since the apparent rape isn't shown, and only alluded to by this one piece of dialogue, I still like to believe that he was lying, and that they killed her instantly, without the rape/torture, and that Dario said this line simply to mentally torture Leiter, but I'm probably fooling myself here).
I understand what you're saying about Della. She isn't the typical Bond woman (she's Leiter's bride, not one of Bond's various 'sexual conquests'), but Priscilla Barnes' blonde All-American wholesome look (which reminds me a bit of Farrah Fawcett's warm, smiley effervescence) is personally more attractive to me than the typically dark, exotic Bond Girl, and that she's so sweet and innocent, makes her fate seem even more egregious in some ways.
But Camille/Kurylenko in QOS appeals to me for the very reasons you highlight. Not only does she have a resolved arc, not only does she get vengeance on the man who killed her family, and brutalised her as a child, and not only is she ultimately able to take care of herself, give or take a few pick-me-ups from Bond when she has a flashback to her childhood trauma, BUT as you say, she's NOT a love interest for Bond. As hot as Kurylenko is, she and Bond never consumate a relationship, and any romantic interest between the pair is fairly muted, which reflects well on Bond, Camille and the filmmakers in general, for choosing NOT to go there.
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HarveyManFredSin (4877)
2 years ago
And I'm pleased we can also agree with respect to Severine in Skyfall (although, once again, I realise I'm in the minority, since I don't rate this recent Bond film that highly, mostly because I feel that the film mishandled its various female characters, *including* Severine, and that in having M die at the end, it feels like Bond ultimately fails in his intrinsic mission; like everything that happened in the film was for nothing). But I do agree with you about Craig's line regarding the scotch, so to speak. It's brilliantly delivered; it's just a shame that in eliciting a smile over Bond's stoic toughness in the face of Silva's attempt to rile him, we're also overlooking how badly the *filmmakers* have treated Severine as a character. It's a very regressive depiction of women, for a film that came out in 2012.
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Ace_Spade (9658)
2 years ago
Yeah, we're polar opposites on QoS and Skyfall. I can go into my reasons if you want, but you've probably heard most of them before.
Del Toro kills that role. Just crushes it. He's one of the all-time best Bond henchmen because he's so memorable and creepy, and he does it without razor blade hats, metal teeth, claw hands, or any of the other 1,001 features Bond henchmen have. Dario was absolutely doing that to rip into Leiter's soul, but I don't think it was just bluster. I don't say we know 100% what happened to Della (and it's better that way) but they didn't just kill her quickly.
You're right about Priscilla Barnes and the effect that character has. She (and, to some extent, Felix) are sacrificial lambs in that film. They don't get the best treatment as characters, but it works within that plotline.
And, again, I might disagree with you on Quantum of Solace's overall quality in the Bond canon, but there's no question that they treat Kurlyenko's character's backstory with a bit more care than other SA stories in the 007 franchise.
Same for Severine - on agreement. Her backstory is so quickly introduced, her character is barely there, and it's all unnecessary. It feels like a slap-on patch of "Why should we care?" for the character, and that's a little cheap. I love Skyfall, but I can own up to its flaws. Basically, they try to eat their cake and have it, too. They want to give Severine some pathos for her death, but without spending time developing the character. I wasn't upset because it was regressive, necessarily, but more that it was kinda cheap writing.
If anything, Severine should have been more "innocent" and maybe even somebody who gets dragged into Bond's world because he casually sleeps with her. She follows him like a puppy dog. She's sweet and naive. She helps him out a couple of times, and she's almost getting the hang of the spy thing when they both get captured. Silva shoots her, and we the audience now witness a character who was growing and learning, a character who was fun, and a character who didn't ask for this get blown away.
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Ace_Spade (9658)
2 years ago
PS
Just had a bit of a chuckle remembering this is technically a Batman message board and we're off in 007's world.
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