MovieChat Forums > Back to the Future Part II (1989) Discussion > Not A Plot Hole, But Maybe Close To One.

Not A Plot Hole, But Maybe Close To One.

posted 9 years ago by keithmoonhangover
15 replies | jump to latest

So here's the thing....

Once Old Biff has traveled back to the 1955, he creates am alternate timeline. Now, when that timeline, everything in 1985 is completely different, but Marty still must meet up with the Doc in the car park and travel back to 1985. It's possible, so not a genuine plot hole, but it is very unlikely in my opinion. Can anyone debunk this one?

If you get in bed with the devil, sooner or later you have to fvck.

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] keithmoonhangover 9 years ago

buddyboy28

Marty doesn't have to meet Doc in the car park, and Doc doesn't even have had to created the Delorean in 1985A for Biff to get the book because it's like a parallel universe.

That's not what I'm saying. When Marty goes back to get the book from Biff, another version of him is already there singing Johnny B Good, but how could he be there playing the guitar if the new 1985. It's not like a parallel universe, it's time travel like the rest of the movie.

If you get in bed with the devil, sooner or later you have to fvck.

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] TxMike 9 years ago

It isn't a "plot hole" it is just a disturbance in the space-time continuum according to Doc Brown.

..*.. TxMike ..*..
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes not.

[–] !!!deleted!!! (9347176) 9 years ago

Once Old Biff has traveled back to the 1955, he creates am alternate timeline. Now, when that timeline, everything in 1985 is completely different, but Marty still must meet up with the Doc in the car park and travel back to 1985.

As has been explained many times, this is an example of the "ripple effect" of BTTF's tangential time travel. When a new tangent is created by a change made in the "past," in this case 1955, the change takes some time to travel through the space-time continuum into the future. The deleted scene where Old Biff disappears (a la Marty in BTTF) would be an example of the ripple effect in action. Marty and Doc are protected from the changes in the timeline because they are passing the ripple, going backwards, into 1985a, or "Hell Valley."

-Rod

[–] keithmoonhangover 9 years ago

rodicus.

I know, but 1985 is already changed before they go back again. Biff has the casino etc, so Doc would not have the car in the car park.

If you get in bed with the devil, sooner or later you have to fvck.

[–] !!!deleted!!! (9347176) 9 years ago

I know, but 1985 is already changed before they go back again. Biff has the casino etc, so Doc would not have the car in the car park.

Are you referring to their initial meeting at Twin Pines Mall when Marty travels back to 1955? If so, it still doesn't matter because of the previously mentioned ripple effect.

Just like it took Marty a week in 1955 in BTTF to start to vanish, it would take far longer than Doc and Marty spend in "Hell Valley" for the ripple to catch up with them and erase them from existence. In "Hell Valley" 1985, Doc was committed in 1983, obviously before completing work on the time machine in this tangent. However, the initial time displacement event (in TP1985) has already occurred, setting in motion every time travel-related event that occurs after that point. It occurred in a different tangent. It has nothing to do with "Hell Valley."

The only way that the "Hell Valley" tangent would continue to exist is if Doc, Marty and Jennifer were to be erased by the ripple when it catches up to them.

It does not, because Doc and Marty go back to the altered 1955 to get the Almanac from young Biff. There is no plot hole, discontinuity or otherwise. The ripple effect rule of BTTF time travel was very well laid out and all the events in the films were subject to this rule.

-Rod

[–] adster81-1 9 years ago

It's like saying Marty should have dissapeared straight away after he was hit by the car, either that or nothing should have had him almost dissapear at all because the time line already knew what happens, but then that would defeat the purpose of the movie and drama and tension.

back to the future uses simple easy straight forward logic so that the average viewer can understand it, using the ripple effect helped this

[–] FuTBoL_HooL 9 years ago

My head is hurting :)

Here is my question/puzzle...Biff steals DeLorian, goes back to 1955, hands almanac to himself and becomes wealthy/evil. 1985 is in ruins. Why hasn't 2015 changed?

[–] !!!deleted!!! (9347176) 9 years ago

Here is my question/puzzle...Biff steals DeLorian, goes back to 1955, hands almanac to himself and becomes wealthy/evil. 1985 is in ruins. Why hasn't 2015 changed?

Not sure if you read any of the previous posts in this thread but I'll reiterate, it's because of the ripple effect.

In every instance of time travel that occurs in the films, the ripple effect causes slow changes (Marty taking a week to vanish, etc...). Old Biff taking the Almanac from LP2015 to his younger self in LP1955 creates a paradox which is resolved by the ripple effect. Doc's gloom and doom predictions about paradoxes and galactic destruction were way off, as it turns out. Because the ripple effect takes so much time to catch up to the present and affect changes there, our heroes have time to get back to 1985A, or "Hell Valley," before any noticable changes are seen in 2015. When Biff arrives in 2015, he is in obvious pain when he stumbles out of the DeLorean, breaking his cane head off in the process, and in a cut scene Old Biff then vanishes due to being shot by Lorraine in the "Hell Valley" version of the 1990's.

Hilldale, where the Old Biff time displacement event takes place, is well outside the city center of Hill Valley. It's also possible that there wouldn't be that many changes to this area of town as result of Biffco's dominance in and around the courthouse area. Remember, even the lady cops in 2015 said that Hilldale was a dump, anyway. They called it a breeding ground for "tranks, lobos and zipheads."

-Rod

[–] GuyNCognito 9 years ago

So....

2015 Biff goes back in time to change the past.

2015 succeeds.

2015 Biff makes it back to his own 2015 because of "the ripple effect" and it taking time to catch up.

2015 Biff suffers the consequences of changing the past. We see it in 2015 as his cane breaks.

So, did the ripple catch up then or not?

If yes, then 1985 would already be changed. Marty from the first film would never have had a chance to travel to 1955 in the first place as the ripple passed through the old 1985, changed it, and reached 2015 to kill Biff.

If anything, it is a hybrid of a plot hole and a paradox.

Grant discovered raptor eggs in Jurassic Park

[–] certificateoflivedickens 9 years ago

So, did the ripple catch up then or not?

If yes, then 1985 would already be changed. Marty from the first film would never have had a chance to travel to 1955 in the first place as the ripple passed through the old 1985, changed it, and reached 2015 to kill Biff.

I think an easier explanation is basically that once 2015 Biff decides to help his 1955 Biff out, he'd no longer exist because the life he lived isn't the same anymore. He belongs to another timeline that isn't available to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItMJtA8vfpw

[–] Circle_of_the_Moon2101 9 years ago

There is a very simple explanation of this phenomenon in the BttF universe:

There is a delay between history being changed in this movie and it becoming effective in the distant future. In other words, it takes some time for the ripple effect to affect future years.

[–] sanddragon939 8 years ago

No, the alternate Marty and Doc DEFINITELY did not participate in that first time-travel experiment.

An issue of the IDW BTTF comic-book series actually deals with 1985-A. Its revealed that Doc meets his alternate self, who's been lobotomized. Doc realizes that since the Delorean was never built in this timeline, its continued existence is paradoxical. He, Marty, Einstien and the Delorean exist in a 'bubble' of the normal timeline, that will eventually burst and he predicts that might cause a universe-ending paradox.

The Marty who we see in BTTF2 in the background is the same old Twin Pines Marty from the original timeline. Old Biff traveling back to 1955 does not affect Marty's presence. Remember, Old Biff arrived on November 12th 1955, at which time, Marty had already been in 1955 for a week. Biff giving himself the Almanac doesn't automatically nullify Marty's existence in 1955.

Formerly sn939

[–] TheEndIsNigh (509) 2 months ago

^^^
This person gets it. It doesn't matter that Doc was sectioned and hasn't been able to create the time machine. 1985A is a "paradox bubble" that can burst at any noment. When Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale wrote the screenplay with 3, they literally titled it Paradox. Even during the shoot, it was called Paradox.