MovieChat Forums > The Seventh Sign (1988) Discussion > 4 horsemen

4 horsemen

posted 20 years ago by sironyx
20 replies | jump to latest

Can anyone familiar with the Bible explain the horseman and their part in the apocolypse and specifically in this movie? The priest when confronting Abby says there is still one horseman left. Is the priest himself that horseman? if there are 4 horseman and seven signs, who is responsible for what? If David is the ressurected Jesus, is he the tool of God's wrath and judgment or is the priest? I am no too familiar with Christianity and appreciate the responses to help me understand a bit more.

[–] Greenwood79 19 years ago

hiya

sorry, not seen the movie yet so can only answer part of your question. I'm not familiar with seven signs but there are seven seals opens by angels to herald the end of the world.

If you check out the Book of Revelation chapter 6, the four horsemen that appear with the opening of the first four seals are (in order of appearance)

Conquest: "...and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

War: "And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

Famine: "...and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."

Death: "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

please note the horsemen are never actually named in the Bible so far as I can remember, these are the names for the riders that I am familiar with (tho for some reason Conquest is commonly replaced by Pestilence, but I'm not sure what the source for this is)

They're so slow. We could just walk right past em and we wouldn't even have to run.

[–] Not_Deceived 19 years ago

I have only seen "The Seventh Sign" once or twice back in the 80's, so I don't remember a lot from it. However, I can tell you what the four horseman Four Horsemen are as how the bible explains it:

The First Horseman (Revelation 6:2) represents the Antichrist. He is seen riding a white horse (mimicking Jesus at His Second Coming, Who also rides a white horse). This rider is seen carrying a bow, but no arrow, going about to conquer. This means he will come to power through diplomatic means.

The Second Horseman (Revelation 6:4) The Antichrist takes the peace away from the world, meaning he will cause world wars, with a great sword (may nuclear?)

The Third Horseman (Revelation 6:5) The rider rides a black horse, carrying a pair of scales (to balance.) When John the Apostle saw this horse, he heard a voice saying "A quart of wheat for a denarius (a whole day's wages), and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine!"

Because of the devasation of war, there will be a food shortage. A person will have to work a whole day just afford a loaf of bread. But "do not harm the oil and the wine" are symbols of wealth. The rich will not be effected.

The Fourth Horseman (Revelation 6:8) A pale horse. The rider's name on this horse is Death and Hades (or hell) follows him.

Again, the devestation of such a world war will kill 1/4 of mankind. The fact that Hades/Hell follows him indicates that a lot of the deceased will be those who have rejected Christ. Those who reject Christ are sent to Hell when they die, and will be resurrected to stand before Jesus at the Great White throne judgment, and be cast in the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:12-15).

If you do not know Christ, today is the day for salvation! Jesus died for your sins and wants you to spend eternity with Him. God will not allow unrepentant sinners into heaven and demands sin be punished, so that is why Jesus came down to take your punishment.

We are in the last days. Jesus is coming, really soon, it you haven't noticed the signs in our world today. For a lot of people, it will be too soon. For more information on end-times events, check out this site: www.raptureready.com.

"The Seventh Sign" is a very unbiblical portrait of end times evnets, but that's no surprise, considering this is a Hollywood movie.

[–] adamatomic41 19 years ago

raptureready.com is a joke. There have always been wars, natural disasters, economic crisis, and powerful leaders. It doesn't mean crap.

[–] rachid_usmc 19 years ago

>God will not allow unrepentant sinners into heaven and demands sin be >punished, so that is why Jesus came down to take your punishment.

But I'm assumming God will allow mass murderers, child rapists, and psychopaths into heaven just as long as they "repent" right before death? Boy are we in luck....

[–] southaustinartist 19 years ago

NO

That question has been debated for centuries and the concensus is the repentance has to have meaning to God, not just the person fearing for his life just before he dies. The only example I can offer is in Dante. someone evil repented at death and the demons took him anyway. Dante offered the explanation available at the time. Go read Inferno.

ALSO: Catholics are nothing like Evangelicals. Dont be afraid to ask a Catholic priest anything. Eastern Orthidox patriarchs ( priests ) are also a good source of information, and they wont attempt to convert anyone either.

[–] es-joer2 19 years ago

An interesting thing about the Crucifiction, if taken at face value, is that if Jesus is God-made-man, then his execution is basically a giant con made to guilt-trip people into an ideology. Like someone I know once said:

"He incarnates himself to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself and make himself lift a curse he himself put on humans."

It's a very round-about-way to get people into a guilt-trip. Since Jesus would be God, he wouldn't really be "risking" or "sacrificing" anything and would be fine and dandy once it was all over (being a supreme, almighty, all powerful god and all). The ones who would have truly suffered, would be the people he left behind, along with all the uncertainty and mystery (which is also deflated in the same story, since he shows up a while later anyway).

I think I'll keep my detached agnosticisim. ;)

[–] jackuslanternusiv 19 years ago

Its funny that you make such a strong argument, considering that clearly you have not learned enough about the crucifixion to learn how to spell it correctly.

Jesus is not God. He is the Son of God. (Remember the trinity: father, son, holy spirit: they are three separate beings which make up one) He came to experience life as a human. He felt the emotions and pains that we as humans face throughout our lives. One of the most important parts of the crucifixion is when he says "Father why have you forsaken me?" At this point, God (the father) has had to separate Himself from Jesus (the son) because it is at this point that Jesus takes on the sin of the world. In this way, Jesus can die for our sins, and yet the father is not made any less perfect by being associated with that sin.

God did not put sin on humans, we did... in the garden of eden. We gave into temptation, putting the "curse" on ourselves.

And its not a guilt trip. Its a gift. If you truly accept in your heart that Jesus came to die for your sins, then you may be saved. (in my humble opinion) The crucifixion of Christ is not really meant to be sad, or make you feel guilty. Its meant to make you understand to what length He would go to have you be able to live eternally with Him in heaven. For if He hadn't died for our sins, then we wouldnt be allowed into heaven. And its meant to make you happy and full of praise that someone would do that for you. (and by you: i mean you, each and every one of us. some like to think that as He was dying on the cross, Jesus saw each one of our faces flash before His eyes, and it is what kept Him from calling upon the legions of angels and removing himself from the cross as he easily could have done.)

I could go into a lot more, but ill save it for later. Hope it was actually helpful to some.

[–] rachid_usmc 19 years ago

>God did not put sin on humans, we did... in the garden of eden. We gave into temptation, putting the "curse" on ourselves.

Actually, Adam and Eve gave into temptation. We did NOT. Why would we be so full of sin for a mistake someone else did eons ago? If God has so much anger for them to the point that even us, who had nothing to do with the incident, is still considered sinful due the act commited by someone else, then God isn't too mercifull is he?

Did Jesus neccessarily have to die for our "sins"? If he's considered the "son" of God, couldn't he just do it the easy way and wipe out sin as it is instead of actually dying? Seems like wasted effort to me.

[–] veteran_of_the_trade 18 years ago

>"Actually, Adam and Eve gave into temptation. We did NOT. Why would we be so full of sin for a mistake someone else did eons ago? If God has so much anger for them to the point that even us, who had nothing to do with the incident, is still considered sinful due the act commited by someone else, then God isn't too mercifull is he? "

The "It wasn't me" defense won't get you to heaven. Faith will.

>"Did Jesus neccessarily have to die for our "sins"? If he's considered the "son" of God, couldn't he just do it the easy way and wipe out sin as it is instead of actually dying? Seems like wasted effort to me."

Everyone wants the 'easy' way. Steroids, liposuction, breast implants, etc... Nothing done the easy way has any substance. It's just lame.

[–] m-ciggy 18 years ago

Can anyone name the Seven Signs?

[–] annerkey29 18 years ago

Technically they aren't signs, they are seals. The interesting thing is they seemed to have mixed the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets and what happened with each. The first seal is the white horse of conquest with a rider wearing a crown. 2 is the red horse with the rider who has the power to take peace and make men slay each other. He had a sword. 3 is the black horse with the rider who had a pair of scales. 4 is the pale horse whose rider was named Death and Hades behind him. They had the power to kill by sword, famine, plague, and by animals over 1/4 of the earth. These 4 don't seem to have anything to do with the things that happened when David broke the seals in the movie of the first 4, maybe the people killing people. 5 is the martyrs and the last one being killed and their numbers complete. 6 is the earthquake, the sun going black, the moon going blood red, the stars falling from the sky, the sky "rolling up like a scroll" and all islands and mountians being moved from their place. 7 was the scilence for half an hour in heaven. There aren't specific details apart from that in the bible, so the rest is up for interpretation. However accurate that can be. The trumpets had some of the other signs from the movie, like the rivers turning to blood, the oceans (seas) turned to blood, the animals dying as a result. The part in the movie about the desert and the freezing that occured there are not in the bible in the judgements that I can find. I think the other one that I can't find was the birds dying and the hailstorm, only the hail is in the bible. Not the birds that I am aware of. That sums up the signs and then some. Sorry if it is more confusing.

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] annerkey29 18 years ago

Veteran of the trade's answer wasn't really an answer to the question that I read. Don't know if you will even come back and read this, but what the heck. There were 2 trees, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They ate from the knowledge of good and evil tree. When they ate from this tree "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves." The eating of this fruit seperated mankind from God. "God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.'" Before they ate the fruit, they only knew good, not evil. Otherwise they would not have walked with God. God created man in His image and likeness, with the free will and all that jazz. Once the knowledge of evil was known by Adam and Eve, they had the ability to choose between the two. If they chose evil and ate the other fruit and people lived forever as evil people, can you imagine what that would be like? They disobeyed God and the curse was put on them and their offspring, all of us. So depressing sounding, I think. That's where Jesus came in. Jesus doesn't have the same power as God, he can't just wipe out sin. He HAD to die, he took the penalty of death for us. He chose to die physically so that we don't have to be condemned to eternal death, which is the penalty for the biggest mistake ever made causing a generational curse that will last until the end. It's about the fact that they flat out disobeyed God. It affected the whole human race, how many people are still suffering for the sins of their fathers, even to 2 or 3 generations back? Lots. He didn't stay angry, and He is merciful, we were provided a way out. That way out is to accept the atonement of Jesus dying for us. That's it. Besides, the easy way isn't always the best way. Would we have learned our lesson otherwise? I'm not screaming at people to convert here, if you read this and want to go ahead (hoorah!), if you don't that's your choice. All I am doing is answering your questions based on my beliefs and knowledge. I hope this explains it for you.

[–] carole_anne 18 years ago

Very intelligent answer and delivered very eloquently.

[–] shystichu 16 years ago

Then answer me this:

1. Why was the tree of knowledge put in the Garden in the first place? Why was the serpeant (devil) ALLOWED in the garden?
2. Since God knows all, why did he allow Eve to have conversations w/ the snake in the first place? If he's going to conceal the fact that they should not know evil, than how about takeing all things related to such AWAY from Eden???

And how about this:

We are all told God is all powerful, and all good. However, in the bible it states that Satan needs God's permission to tempt man, now either God is not all powerful that he cannot stop Satan from tempting man, or he is not all good, that he allows it.

Answer those riddles for me christians and I'll convert!

Life's tough, it's tougher when you're stupid.

[–] senua 16 years ago

Firstly, it's quite clear you don't want to be 'converted', you just want to point and laugh and show how clever you are. In reality you're just showing how little you understand.

Secondly, if you really do want an answer to those questions try studying the text and its history yourself to understand the deeper meaning in it. You don't think the serpent is literally a talking snake do you? Or that the two trees are actual trees? What you're sneering at is a huge theological minefield with many interesting interpretations, I know which one I think could be right but that doesn't matter, you have to find your own. Reading the Bible with a 'this is all rubbish but if God is really there he'll show himself to me, right?' attitude is not going to get you anywhere. Seek and ye shall find means you have to truly want to know God and have a relationship with him not 'I don't really need God in my life but just in case I'll sort of think he might be there, after all you never know'.

The reason man is allowed to be tempted is the same reason we all have individual personalities, thoughts and feelings. If we do not choose to come to God ourselves then we are little better than robots programmed to worship and nothing else. This is also why you can't 'force' belief on anyone, either you believe it and know God personally or you aren't a Christian, the knowing God is the most important part. Also, you're referring to Job with your quote, again you show you have no understanding of the situation. Earth and the material world belong to Satan, he has taken dominion over it because our sins allowed him to, he doesn't need to ask for permission to do anything except in cases like Job; he was a man who walked with God, he had God's protection so Satan did need permission to do what he did which was a lot more than simple tempting.

Anyway, I think the most important question here is if you're so secure in your atheism what are you doing trying to test Christianity on a movie forum? Why think about it in the first place? Why does it matter to you at all?

[–] bigbeataudio 16 years ago

"Anyway, I think the most important question here is if you're so secure in your atheism what are you doing trying to test Christianity on a movie forum?"

Dude, that was just a pathetic argument. I could also apply the same logic back to you.

"Anyway, I think the most important question here is if you're so secure in your Christianity what are you doing trying to test atheism on a movie forum?"

Like all followers of religion, who claim you have to find "your own" way whilst being told "HOW to think", you really have NO idea how to think for yourself. (Your all Sheep...baa baa)

The real problem with religion, is that "God" put it in the hands of man to "interpret", there by f%^king up a great idea!

[–] senua 16 years ago

Dudette actually and I wasn't testing atheism (I don't need to test it because I know there is a God), I was answering the questions. I don't care what you believe, it's totally your choice but if someone wants to debate my religion then I'm more than happy to help out.
For the record, I am not a 'religious' person, I don't follow dogma, I am a spiritual person who has a relationship with God and try to live my life the way I feel he wants me to, there is a big difference. I have a choice in whether I listen to God and I admit it, I'm only human and sometimes I don't and honestly those times usually don't turn out well, after all he has my best interests at heart. Everything you're saying just goes to show that you don't understand where I'm coming from and puts you firmly in the camp of angry atheist, it's kind of sad that you feel so bitter about what is in reality a wonderful experience.

You know absolutely nothing about me or my ways of thinking and yet here you are denouncing me as a sheep and telling me how I live me life, a pretty standard atheist response when they get faced with things they don't like. I noticed you didn't bother to challenge anything I said just whipped out the insults.
Maybe I think you are a sheep who can't think for themselves, a closed book who won't entertain the thought that there is something out there that can't be explained or understood, you think you have you're own way whilst being told HOW to think too, you know. You put your faith in science and a very narrow logic; there is no God, man will find the answers, no need to look any further than the end of your nose, anything spiritual or supernatural is rubbish, baa baa.
You do know that science is only man's interpretation of the world around him and is subject to change as we discover and learn more and not some outside force that repells the need for the Divine? Science has not explained anything about the big picture, it has made guesses and that is all, the theory of Evolution has not been proven completely so saying that is the answer is just as faith based as putting it all down to a creator god.

I agree that man has royally messed up religion, that is why I distance myself from that label. It's been used as an excuse to carry out all sorts of disgraceful things that go against it's core message. All I have to say about it is that God is a living presence, he doesn't live in Churches or sit up on a cloud watching us get on with it, if you look for him and truly want to find him then he will touch your life and you'll have all the proof you need.

[–] bigbeataudio 16 years ago

Senua many appologies regarding the 'dude', I was wrong to assume you were male and it was wrong of me to assume all religious people are sheep. Your right, Im an athiest thru and thru. But, I have no plans to put all my faith in science. Im well aware that science can give me none of the good answers in life. One thing that seems to be very wrongly accused of athiests, is that we have 'no faith', that our lives are empty simply because we dont believe in any sort of diatey? Nothing could be further from the truth.
I dont believe in God, but I beleive in love, in trust, in helping people and trying to better my life and those around me, its just that I do it without God. I dont need God, to be better or to hope that we will live in peace etc. If a question comes up that cant be answered, I dont say only God knows, I try to find the answer myself. I find the idea of God so small, when you look up into the sky on a stary night, when you look at how big the universe is, God to me just becomes a man made idea. I dont know all the answers, but Im not going to make up something to fill in the gaps, either way, we will find out the answer soon enough. The thing that gives me hope, is that either way, we both push to better our lives and those around us on earth before D-day.

[–] senua 16 years ago

Hey, sorry for assuming things about you too, I guess we've come up against the same sort of people in both camps too often and have become a little jaded. I think the term Humanist would suit you better than atheist ('Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appealing to universal human qualities, particularly rationality, without resorting to the supernatural or alleged divine authority from religious texts' swiped from wiki), no offense meant by suggesting that, it just seem to fit your outlook.

We do seem to be pretty similar in our thinking styles, (minus God on your side ;) ) although when I look up I'm moved by creation and see how big God really is, I don't pretend to understand what the Divine actually is, I'm too small and finite to possibly hope to but I see it all around, feel it move in my life and know what we call God in my own way. Stargazing is one of my favourite things, whenever I go outside at night my head goes back until my neck starts to complain.

I guess I'm lucky in some respects, I know without a doubt that there is something more out there because I have experienced it, I wouldn't be so adamant that God was real if I hadn't. Doesn't mean I'm not still looking for answers though, anyone that just says 'God did it' over every little thing needs to stop being so blind and own up, take responsiblity for themselves. Life is still full of wonder and mystery for me thankfully, it would be incredibly boring if it wasn't.
Thanks for replying, you now go on my cool atheists list, you should know you have some pretty awesome company on there :).