MovieChat Forums > Bull Durham (1988) Discussion > Factual Mistake

Factual Mistake

posted 16 years ago by watchmyongfly
30 replies | jump to latest

When Nuke goes to the pool hall to tell Crash he's been called up to The Show, Crash introduces Sandy as having hit .376 (or something close to that) for Louisville in 1965.

The Louisville Colonels were disbanded when the American Association suspended play after the 1962 season, one of two AA teams not to be recycled to either the Pacific Coast League or the International League (the other was the Omaha Dodgers). There was no Louisville team from the 1963 season until the Red Sox farm team at Toronto was moved to Louisville for the 1968 season in the International League.

[–] jeunet1 16 years ago

He He I hate to break it to you...but there are about a million factual mistakes in this movie. Being such a classic I expected it to have a very realistic representation of the sport and as usual....it didnt even come close...I don't have time to make a laundry list of complaints....but being a lifetime ball player myself I can verify that there are very few realistic baseball moments in this movie.

ok ok i have a few seconds here....the thing that irks me the MOST (being a pitcher) is Nuke discussing Crash's pitch calling OUT LOUD?!?!?! I can gurantee you that this has NEVER happened on a baseball field anywhere on this planet EVER. He is essentially tipping his pitches...nay....COMPLETELY GIVING HIS PITCHES AWAY.

that is all for now.

Your over confidence is your weakness.......

Your faith in your friends...is yours!!!

[–] Frank_Z 16 years ago

This thing with pitchers and fielders covering their mouths when talking in the infield - well it is pretty recent. If you get a chance to see some old ballgames on some sports classics station, you will see that at least until the 1980's, few if anyone covered their mouths.

And besides, with all the background noise at a ballpark, you really can't hear a conversation in a normal voice from that 60 feet without listening devices.

[–] JR541 16 years ago

According to Tim McCarver it had been done at least as early as the 70's. He mentioned that when he was a player with Montreal in 1972 his manager Gene Mauch was good at figuring out who was going to cover the base. Mauch noticed that even though the player had his mouth covered that you could still see his neck muscles contort from opening his mouth. Being that it was so l early in the 1970's that it also makes it possible that it was used in the 60's.

He's taking the knife out of the Cheese!
Do you think he wants some cheese?

[–] Frank_Z 16 years ago

I respect Tim McCarver for having been a talented catcher who was a regular player on a World Series Championship team. But that was 40 years ago and now he makes a lot of mistakes of fact and of memory.

He may be right about Mauch having said something like that, but just look at games on ESPN Classics or elsewhere and you will find that if people were covering their mouths, it was the rare exception.

[–] JR541 16 years ago

The McCarver Book I read this in was called "Oh Baby, I Love it" and it was written in 1987 when he was retired for only 7 years. I'm gonna take Timmy Macs word over yours in this case. I fond the actual quote from the book online.

"Mauch couldn't actually see the open or closed mouth — he'd watch the vein in
the infielder's neck. If the vein contracted, his mouth was open."

He's taking the knife out of the Cheese!
Do you think he wants some cheese?

[–] Frank_Z 16 years ago

I see, you are talking about an infielder giving a sign. That is quite a different case from having discussions with a pitcher. Middle infielders often communicate about who has coverage - for instance on a steal of second - by using the sign of looking over with an open or closed mouth. And in that case, it has usually been behind the glove in order to hide the sign.

As for taking someone's word, don't take mine, just take the opportunity to watch some old games. I will be watching, too, when I get a chance - and I will let you know what I see.

Just remember, the original claim was:

ok ok i have a few seconds here....the thing that irks me the MOST (being a pitcher) is Nuke discussing Crash's pitch calling OUT LOUD?!?!?! I can gurantee you that this has NEVER happened on a baseball field anywhere on this planet EVER.

Since the claim was that "this never happened on a baseball field anywhere on this planet EVER" it takes only one example anywhere at any level of baseball to refute that claim. However, my position is that historically that claim could be refuted at the major league level not only once, but in fact that the opposite was the customary practice as recently as forty years ago.

Grist for the mill:

Fredi González, Manager of the Florida Marlins, talks with his pitcher on the mound - no mouths covered:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FrediGonzalez.JPG

I realize this does not match the situation where a pitcher and catcher confer on the field, so I will be on the lookout for examples that more closely match that situation.

[–] greenbird-1 11 years ago

The practice of pitchers covering their mouths with their gloves became common in the early 90's.

In the 1989 NL playoffs between the Giants and Cubs (a year after this movie was made), Cubs pitcher Greg Maddux had a conference on the mound with his catcher and - without covering his mouth - said he was going to throw a fastball inside to the hitter, Will Clark of the Giants.

Clark read Maddux's lips and knew an inside fastball was coming. He hit it onto Sheffield Avenue for a grand slam.

Pitchers started covering their mouths more frequently after that.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] jejozi 13 years ago

I've been watching and playing ball since the 60s. Watching since the game of the week with Dizzy and Pee Wee in the 60s and just about every Cubs game in the late 70s through the 80s, playing every year since '67. While a few may have done it in the 60s and 70s, it didn't become common until the mid 90s. First I remember anyone doing it was Rick Sutcliffe when he joined the Cubs in '84.

This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.

[–] crood 8 years ago

Probably around the time every stadium had giant Jumbotrons and expanded the number of cameras.

[–] jscrash-1 16 years ago

Hey meat, I guarantee that this happens, tipping pitches. Actually most accounts came from Ron Sheldon's minor league career. Even though I'm a Star Wars fan, anyone quoting Star Wars in a Bull Durham chat, definitely is not a "career baseball player". I guarantee you never progressed past High School if not Little League. Believe me it happens.

[–] wheelz04 16 years ago

being a lifetime ball player myself I can verify that there are very few realistic baseball moments in this movie.

Fair enough.
There are a lot of details the film gets wrong. For one, the conference on the mound (when they discuss candlesticks) goes on WAY too long. The umpire would have broken things up after about 20 seconds.

Also, Nuke gets called up to the show because "the big club is expanding its roster." Then Crash is cut and ends up going to Asheville to "finish out the season." Problem is, roster expansion happens on September 1st, and the Minor League season ends on Labor Day weekend. There wouldn't really be any season left to finish out at that point.

BUT, despite these and other examples, I maintain that this film gets the feel, the attitute, the philosophy of baseball exactly right. That's harder to define, but to me it just feels right.

So I say -- Don't sweat the small stuff.

[–] crabapple86 15 years ago

Hollywood is fantasy, and nothing but.

Bleu Cheese Salad Dressing is made on the Moon! My Uncle from Mars told me, so I know it's true!

[–] jscrash-1 14 years ago

INCORRECT!!! I once saw an interview with a couple catchers who said they had done this. Learning in the Minors is sometimes as important as winning. Anything you don't believe has happened on a field probably has, hell, a local boy from here (Eureka, CA) was once tagged out jogging home in the minors after a catcher threw a peeled potato from his back pocket and throwing it into left field, when Rick Lundblade jogged home the catcher tagged him out with the ball that was still in his glove. The catcher was released the next day but every year they have a "Potato" night and the catcher signs autographs all night. Don't speak, of which you do not know. =)

[–] leengee 14 years ago

Just a thought, but Nuke is not credited with an over abundance of smarts. Be that as it may, I took at as just mumbling to himself, made loud enough and clear enough for the audience to hear, not necessarily the batter.

"There's poo in there" - Zack

[–] oldsalt61 14 years ago

I know this is an old thread but here goes anyway. The major league clubs get to expand their roster to 40 players from September 1 through the end of the season. They will pick players who have had a good year at one of their minor league clubs or who they believe to be a prospect that would benefit from the exposure. Some have stayed in the show; but usually from AA or AAA. There are several ways to give infield cover signs; and yes voice is one of them. No hard and fast rule as to which is used.

[–] Teach417 11 years ago

I'm really sorry I didn't see this post six years ago, as I'm sure you'll never see this reply. But I have to ask, when you say you've played baseball all your life, do you mean that you played professionally, or as an amateur? Because Ron Shelton, who wrote and directed this movie, played pro ball. He was an infielder who reached triple A ball, playing a couple of seasons with the Rochester Red Wings. Yes, there are factual errors, because this is a work of fiction, but I have a lot more faith in his understanding of the overall approach to and spirit of the pro game than I do in that of a recreational ball player. As for Nuke talking on the mound about the pitch selection, did you really not understand that he was mumbling to himself, that essentially they were vocalizing his thoughts? He wasn't shouting this out so that the batter could hear him from sixty feet away.

We provide ... Leverage.

[–] Robbmonster 9 years ago

Your watching movies for 'realism' is your weakness.

If you want realism, watch documentaries, or if you are a lifetime ball player, go hang out at the field.

If you want fantasy, go to the movies some time.

Never defend crap with 'It's just a movie'
http://www.youtube.com/user/BigGreenProds

[–] JR541 16 years ago

If this were a documentary then its a mistake. It's a fictional film with fictional people. This could be a fictional Louisville team.

He's taking the knife out of the Cheese!
Do you think he wants some cheese?

[–] tyler_roughnecks 16 years ago

ALSO:

Mötley Crüe never recorded a song entitled, "Raye Anne, She's A-Stayin'"

The All-Time Minor League Home Run record was not 246 circa 1988.

There is no way Crash felt that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone -- seeing how he played Jim Garrison in Oliver Stone's JFK three years later !!

[EDIT] for any literalists reading this, my JFK comment is what is known to some as HUMOR :)

[–] JR541 16 years ago

The goofs section mentions the mistaken minor league home run leadership. I know you're just joking when you say that Crash would no way feel Oswald acted alone because Costner portrayed Jim Garrison as well but they are two different people.

He's taking the knife out of the Cheese!
Do you think he wants some cheese?

[–] tyler_roughnecks 16 years ago

OF COURSE I was joking :)

‘guess I should have included a trite “LOL” ...

[–] Shinryu83 16 years ago

also: I've seen a dubbed version, so I might be off here, but...in the version I saw Nuke was described as making his "professional debut" at the beginning of the film. no way that would be in Triple-A. But again, it might be a translation quirk.

"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."

[–] mjkowols 16 years ago

In 1988 the Durham Bulls were a single A team in the Carolina League, so that could have possibly been his professional debut. Especially if he was such a highly thought of prospect. Of course that makes the likelihood of him making the jump to the show at the end of the season very unrealistic.

[–] findanddestroyatlantis 16 years ago

____________________________________________________________________________
also: I've seen a dubbed version, so I might be off here, but...in the version I saw Nuke was described as making his "professional debut" at the beginning of the film. no way that would be in Triple-A. But again, it might be a translation quirk.
_________________________________________________________________________

Acutally it's supposed to be single-A, which just like Tripl-A is professional. Just because it's not MLB doesn't mean it's not pro.

[–] Shinryu83 16 years ago

That's what I'm saying, but I thought the Bulls were AAA (they are now). Like mjkowols said, this poses the opposite question of how Nuke can jump from A to MLB level in the span of one season, let alone one where he hit a rough patch at one point.

"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."

[–] findanddestroyatlantis 16 years ago

From 1980 to 1997 the Durham Bulls were in the Carolina Leage, which is High A. It didn't become AAA until 1998 when it's affiliation with the Tampa Bay Rays began.

If Nuke was such a highly touted prospect (he's refered to as a bonus baby) then it's possible he got a major league contract coming out of college and would therefore already be on the 40 man roster. If the club wanted to call him up to see how he'd react against better hitters after putting it together in the second half of the season in Durham, then there's no reason they couldn't. They could simply reassign him to AA or AAA the following spring if he didn't make the 25 man roster.

Former Tiger and Current Marlin Andrew Miller had a September call up actually written into his contract. He was drafted in June '06, appeared in 3 High A games, then was called up to the Tigers in September where he appeared in 8 games.

The following year he burned through the minors, making 7 starts at A ball, 4 at AA and 2 at AAA before being called to the big leagues and making 13 starts.

Nuke's situation isn't common, but it's not outside the realm of possibility either.

Also, with regard to Nuke's rough patch, cumulative stats don't mean much with regard to a player getting called up. The player develoment people in the parent organization care much more about how the player has looked in the past few weeks than on the season as a whole because the whole point of the minor leagues is to put player through the learning process.

[–] jejozi 13 years ago

They were in Single-A ball.

This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.

[–] elduderino09 9 years ago

Indeed, it was (at the time and referenced in the movie) as single A. Crash wanted to know why he was back in "the bus leagues." Do AAA players fly to their away games? I thought they'd be bus leagues too.

[–] ojoe1218 9 years ago

I live in Sacramento, where there's a AAA team, and they fly. Maybe not always, but sometimes they have to. Sacramento is in the Pacific Coast League, which despite its name, has only three of 16 teams in Pacific Coast states. It's got teams as far away as Oklahoma City and New Orleans - there are two PCL teams in Tennessee.

This weekend, the Sacramento River Cats will play Saturday night in Sacramento and then Sunday evening in Omaha. Earlier this season, the Memphis Redbirds played an away game in Fresno on one day, and then were back home in Memphis for another game the next night. So, by AAA, they're flying - maybe even in lower leagues. They just don't fly in the same comfort as the big leaguers.