This film depicts the Japs as noble warriors. - Empire of the Sun (1987) Discussion

[–] chechrissie 17 years ago

I love the way that the internet brings the world together. Even the ignorant idiots among us manage to find themselves on computers. We have somebody who has watched the film thinking that the would be kamikaze pilot was in fact Chinese or should I say 'Chinssese'?! And now we have a title including 'Japs'. Love it.

The film is based on a semi autobiographical novel by JG Ballard just in case you didn't manage to read that part of the page. We see the Japanese through the eyes of Jim and he saw them as heroic. Who is to say that many of them weren't and that many Americans and British weren't cowards? Are you naive as well as stupid?

Having said all this I have to agree with the basics of what you have said. However I'm sure most of us have seen 'Saving Private Ryan' and know the answer to that anyway and feel there is no need to word the statement in a hypothetical manner.

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[–] PKBitchGirl 17 years ago

Some officers in the german army were heroic, in The Pianist the German officer doesn't turn in Szpilman and Schindler was a member of the Nazi party yet he saved hundreds of Jews

From The Pianist FAQ section:

Why did the German officer spare Szpilman?

The scene in which Wilm Hosenfeld asks Szpilman to play the piano is often referred to by those who assume that Hosenfeld spared Szpilman because he recognized Szpilman's great talent. In reality, Szpilman was just one of many Poles and Jews that Hosenfeld saved from death until his capture by the Soviets in 1945. In Hosenfeld's diary, available at the back of Szpilman's book "The Pianist: The Extraordinary Story of One Man's Survival in Warsaw, 1939-1945", Hosenfeld wrote about the many horrors he witnessed being committed against Jews and Poles and expressed his intention to save as many as he could. His high rank in the German army allowed him to provide working papers for Jews and Poles, even employing some of them himself in a sports stadium that was under his command. Unfortunately, Hosenfeld was treated brutally by the Soviets who thought that his claims to have saved many Poles and Jews were merely lies. He died in a Soviet detention camp in 1952

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] vfx_girl 8 years ago

That's an interesting point that I didn't really notice or think about before now. It makes sense though, the story is about Jim's experience during the war so it would be coming from his point of view.

(You really didn't need to call the person who posted this stupid though. Even if you don't agree with the viewpoint taken, everyone has the right to have their own opinion.)

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[–] liscarkat (18368) 2 years ago

Wow, what a pompous asshole.

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[–] ami_fee68 17 years ago

And such vocabulary is noble? That you might be making an interesting point doesn't excuse your racism. And btw, Amon Goeth was a sadistic Nazi, and yet he was depicted as a human with a heart, torn between his hatred for Jews and his desire for his Jewish housekeeper. In the end, he performed the 'noble' act of getting her on Schindler's list which saved her life. I haven't read the (SL) book or studied the particular topic enough to know if that storyline actually happened, but the truth about that is irrelevant since your point was about how Spielberg would depict them.
I agree with Che' that we are looking at this through Jim's eyes. But even in Paradise Road where the Japanese are shown burning a woman alive to punish her, they are also stopped in their tracks by the music of the women's choral performance (a true event, btw) - when they would otherwise be beating them for holding an assembly. Then there are movies like the Dirty Dozen, where Americans are supposed to be revered for their actions on our behalf, even when they do things like stabbing a woman in her lover's apartment, just because she is there.
All Nazis were human beings. None of them were born any more prone to committing evil acts than YOU or anyone else. Circumstances made them either passive toward the opportunists, or vulnerable to becoming them. Everyone has the potential to become one who would do unspeakable things. To be otherwise is to have constantly made a choice for what one considers to be good. Do you have any opinion on whether it was noble to drop the bomb on Japan? When you allow yourself to think like you have, you are on a slippery slope toward the same idealogy that causes people to crash into aircraft carriers with their planes, and to exterminate your fellow humans.

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Here is where the birds sing! Here is where the sky is blue!

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] ami_fee68 17 years ago

I'm sorry, but - ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKIN' MIND? You say that *I* am the one who is painting the beautiful Utopian world? Utopia defined: An ideally perfect place in its social, political and moral aspects. That perfectly describes your rosy yet black and white portrait of the good ol' Yanks, if you ask me. If ignoring the evils done by the United States is not naive, then nothing is. Just because we may not have forced women into prostitution or exterminated people systematically does not mean we have never done anything wrong. You have obviously not watched the news in your life, because you have clearly missed the reports when one set of Americans had to land their helicopters between an American platoon and a village in Vietnam in order to stop a massacre, or when the ship the St. Louis was returned to Germany, condemning thousands of people to death in the concentration camps, or when the government interned Japanese-Americans in unbearable conditions in the scorpion-laden desert, or admitted that experiments had been conducted on black men at Tuskegee, or when they turned firehoses on peaceful civil rights protestors, or segregated buses, or when Abu Ghraib and secret American-sponsored torture centers in other countries were exposed. While my concept acknowledges the shades of gray that all humans have, your "Americans and its allies have always been the good guys" is no less idealistic than a Leave It to Beaver episode put in a blender with Mrs. Miniver. Btw, the Russians and Chinese have been our allies, so are they still the good guys should they become our enemies (again)? And, I assume that you have a source to back up that comment about the Japanese being cannibals? That particular act I have never heard of, and I have, though casually, studied this area quite a bit. I do not deny any of the atrocities that the Japanese or Germans did. I do believe without a doubt, however, that the United States is in as much danger of being a victim of dictatorship as every other country in the world; we have been in the past (and even in the present), in terms of not sticking to our constitutional principles when supposed 'extreme events' happen. Think of how on edge we were after 9/11. One of your good guy Americans unprovoked, shot an American Sikh because - wanting in the first place to kill a Muslim, however innocent they might have been - he was too stupid know that a Sikh is not Muslim. It was and still is a challenge for any of us to not fall victim to our prejudices. Obviously "societies are different", however that does not argue against my assertion that society is a learned aspect of humanity. You acknowledged that yourself when you said that "the American forces were made up of all races, including Japanese." Otherwise, how could we have those of Japanese heritage in our forces - on the side of 'good'? And by the way, did you realize that those Japanese-Americans who were fighting on our side were usually the sons and brothers of the interned? And many of them had to wait decades to be honored for their heroic acts. Doesn't sound Utopian to me. Since I don't know how old you are, I can only say that maybe I am young in comparison to you, or maybe I am not. Such condescending statements do not prompt my respect for you, either way.

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[–] Petie3-2 17 years ago

Getting your respect isn't too high on my list of things to do before I die. I merely hope you get some perspective in your life. Diversity isn't necessarily a virtue.

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[–] ami_fee68 17 years ago

"Getting your respect isn't too high on my list of things to do before I die."

Well, then I'm delighted that you may have the chance to die with all your wishes fulfilled.

"Diversity isn't necessarily a virtue."

When one makes such brilliant comments as yours, I must say I wholeheartedly agree.

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Here is where the birds sing! Here is where the sky is blue!

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] ami_fee68 17 years ago

Ramblin', you are an EXTREMIST. You are no better than those who would set out to harm America with dirty bombs and hijackings. You know why? Not because you 'love America', but because you deny that someone loves America unless one ignores all her faults. Did Edward R. Murrow hate America when he protested against Mcarthyism? Did Martin Luther King hate America when he protested segregation? Did Muhammed Ali hate America when he protested the Vietnam war? Only if one accepts your criteria as proof. They saw injustice and amoral acts and they protested.
"The United States of America has fed more people, freed more people, defended more people, provided more disaster relief, promoted democracy, stood up for human rights more than any other country in the history of our planet."
If that is true - and I would love to see your statistics - it is because we did not ignore what we disapproved of. You advocate ignorance of such things, however, when you insist that we can do no wrong just because we are who we are.

I Love America. But one can love their country as they would their sibling without blind approval of his or her actions.

Your Words: "The Japanese were known as ferocious fighters. They were notorious for the savage treatment of POW's and civilians."

Your Words: "is any country perfect? No."

Enough said.
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Here is where the birds sing! Here is where the sky is blue!

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[–] CactusHazretleri 17 years ago

Sorry, but I think as far as that "incorporated all races" thing you're a bit off base. Yes, people of a variety of races did fight on the US side in WWII, but you know what, they fought in RACIALLY SEGREGATED UNITS. I seriously don't understand how it is hateful to America to assert that human nature is broadly the same across the planet and through history. By virtue of our being born in America, are we somehow uncorruptable by the same circumstances that turn otherwise normal and just people into murderers and war criminals? "America" isn't even a race - even if there is such as thing - and there's absolutely zero genetic basis for who this country is.

If you're suggesting it's something about American culture that makes us so perfect, I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Don't get me wrong, I think we have quite a lot to offer the world and on balance I think we really do have more things right in this great country than people do anywhere else. When it comes to war crimes, torture, racism, and the inhumanity we've witnessed so much of over the last century or so, however, culture just plain doesn't explain it.

If you really doubt that Americans are susceptible to the same "inhumanity" as people in the rest of the world, look at what happened two years ago right here in the USA when Hurricane Katrina hit. Looting, rioting, thievery, rape, murder, and vigilantism all sprung up almost over night. When people have the power to do whatever they please with others and know they won't be punished for it - be it in war or situations of anarchy - the stuff hits the fan, and that's true anywhere. Read your Thomas Hobbes.

Maybe I'll grant you that some aspects of the institutional organization in our armed forces - the accountability and (relative) transparency - has acted to prevent many of the excesses and cruelties practiced by armies elsewhere, and if, for example, a soldier rapes a civilian, we can expect the possibility that they'll actually get in trouble for it. On the other hand, there's no denying that this system does not always work. What happened in Haditha, Iraq, for example?

Anyway, my most basic problem with what you've said is that you're holding folks to two different standards - you're measuring America against the best of its ideals and those actions that have accorded with them, but the Japanese against the worst of what they actually did.

For my part, I love this movie, and think it is one of the most powerful and subtle studies of the human condition ever captured on film.

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[–] ami_fee68 17 years ago

Thanks for your comments, Cactus.

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Here is where the birds sing! Here is where the sky is blue!

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[–] RaniaR 17 years ago

Yes - Cactus and Ami, well done.
I admire the US but I am perfectly aware of its many faults and failings. I personally do not admire blind patriotism just as I do not admire religious fanaticism. A lack of objectivity about the system or society you live in is not a healthy thing - certainly not for the system or society itself. It leads to a dangerous feeling of superiority and an inability to critically assess and improve failings. Many non-Americans might argue that that has been/is/will be the "greatest nation on earth's" most dangerous fault, but it is sadly one shared by many nations.

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[–] ami_fee68 17 years ago

Vielen Dank. Leute an IMDb machen sich ein bischen laecherlich mit so welche unglaublich extreme Meinungen, oder? (entschuldige bitte mein grammatik)

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Here is where the birds sing! Here is where the sky is blue!

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[–] RaniaR 17 years ago

Die Grammatik stimmt, und deiner Meinung stimme ich auch zu! Solche extremen Meinungen hängen - leider Gottes - vielleicht mit einem Mangel an Bildung oder Reife oder Objectivität zusammen. Vielleicht kennt man nur sein eigenes Land oder seinen eigenen Bundesstaat, und hat nichts von der großen, weiten Welt gesehen!

Solche extreme Meinungen machen mir allerdings Angst, weil euer Land doch sehr machtvoll ist und wenn die Mehrheit so denkt, kann es für die ganze Menschheit gefährlich sein. Die Welt hat es bereits in Deutschland gesehen - die feste Überzeugung, dass wir "gut" sind und sie "böse" sind, führt dazu, dass man sich ziemlich alles erlauben kann, weil "wir" schließlich immer Recht haben - "wir" sind ja "die Guten"!

BTW - it is not my native tongue either, so hopefully my grammar is okay as well!

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[–] ami_fee68 17 years ago

Well, if it's not your native tongue, then I'm going to be lazy. (Vielleicht lernt der 'Feber'-Typ was davon) (What is your native tongue, if I may ask?)

Yes, my point from my first post on this thread is that those who don't believe that they are just as capable as others of evil are the next to commit it, or at least to allow it to occur (not much difference). I once asked my German teacher if I could tape her while she talked about her life. She was an Austrian Jew who escaped from the Nazi annexation. She was also a Socialist who could sing the Internationale' in four languages. Because of this she wanted me to neither write anything down or to record it. She was afraid of being thrown out of her apartment for her beliefs. I tried to explain to her that that couldn't happen here because it would be unconstitutional, things like that don't happen in this day and age, in this country, etc. She said, "Yes, I thought the same about Austria, too."

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Here is where the birds sing! Here is where the sky is blue!

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[–] RaniaR 17 years ago

Straight off, I absolutely do NOT condone the actions or mentality of the Third Reich but I find it frightening that many who do are ill-disposed towards looking at the actions of their own nation(s) with the same critical perspective. The bombing of Dresden - just one example - was a crime against humanity. It is not less evil because it was carried out by the Allies. It is not justifiable because "we" are "good" and "they" are "evil". This whole "we/they" and "good/evil" rhetoric is simplistic and dangerous, it is a manipulative tool - never trust a politician or body of politicians who resort to painting the world in terms of a 'fight against evil'. One would imagine that history might've taught us that by now. Apparently not.

The story about your Austrian teacher doesn't surprise me. I seem to recall a certain country and western band member who said to an audience in London: "Just so you know, we’re on the good side with y’all [note the use of 'the good side'!!]. We do not want this war, this violence, and we’re ashamed that the President of the United States is from Texas."
Can you remember the uproar this sparked in the nation that holds freedom of speech and thought as one of its most sacred liberties? I can remember seeing news footage on TV of piles of their CDs being crushed by a bulldozer, thinking to myself "This reminds me of Nazi Germany!" And that's scary.

In any case, accepting a black and white view of the world in terms of good vs evil is easy: you don't have to think. You don't have to attempt to understand, you don't have to exert and educate yourself. That is why I find the Third Reich so bizarre and fascinating - and not in a positive sense, I'm afraid. Anyone who has read e.g. Laurence Rees' book on Auschwitz (I haven't seen the series on the BBC, I must admit) will note that one of the most chilling aspects of the Holocaust was the fact that the people who carried out these atrocities were not soulless, evil monsters, they were normal people, who loved their grandmothers and adored their kids and tended their rosebushes. Similarly, I am sure the soldiers responsible for the atrocities at Abu Ghraib were basically nice people, who were kind to their moms and helped old ladies cross the road.

That is the crux of it: what some of the previous posters seemed to try to do (and forgive me if I misinterpret this, but it is an anonymous internet forum so these messages are simply one-dimensional versions of a what would be a more lively, face-to-face argument) is to assert a certain moral authority based on their nationality. Nonsense! Some vague statistics were mentioned as proof of how the USA has always been on the side of "good" - "good" is subjective, just as history is subjective (take a look at the British vs Irish perspectives of the Irish nationalist struggle - a study in creative writing!) - and statistics are manipulable. Have you ever thought how different history would be if certain wars had had different outcomes? How do you think - in this alternative history - the vanquished and the victors would be portrayed then?

Finally, when one considers the fact that the single largest ethnic group in the USA is German, it makes me smile when people bandy about theories about how (intrinsically?) 'evil' certain races or cultures, such as the Germans, were (are?) and how other races or cultures, such as the US Americans, are beacons of democracy and justice and fairness. It doesn't make sense, does it?

BTW, I'm Irish and so English is my mother tongue, or one of them anyway. As an Irish person, I have a certain fondness for the US :-) But just as I am critical of my own country's politics, I'm also critical of the United States'. It, like other superpowers, has such an enormous influence on the rest of the globe in terms of society, environment, economics etc. that it has to accept the fact that its actions are scrutinised all the more carefully. I must admit that it is very nice to read posts by Americans who don't subscribe to the more extreme opinions thrown out in discussions like these: voices of reason are often drowned out by those who scream louder.

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[–] ami_fee68 17 years ago

There was a book "Hitler's Willing Executioners" which really infuriated me because the author implied that proof of the Germans inherent evil was that they had no problem guarding and exterminating Jews and others, but they rose up against the plan to euthanize the developmentally disabled. The author didn't understand that the developmentally disabled can be born into any family - that of Nazis, Jews, whoever - while being Jewish is not so random. Therefore, people will have ties to one group while it's possible that they will never socialize with the latter. It is because of this that they are able to defuse their belief in the Jew's or Gypsy's humanity and commit unspeakable acts without appearing to feel shame about it, while they will defend the life of the disabled.

I was in Germany on 9/11 and all I can say is that fear has a very powerful influence on one's ability to be open-minded and egalitarian. After such an event, I had no idea what to expect from the world, and so when a Turkish kid at a McDonald's asked why my German "was so bad" (how politely worded) and where was I from, I just kept speaking German and said, "I don't know" instead of admitting I was American. It is easier to just stick to suspicion and anger and fear than to return to the perspective you had before you found out that anything is possible. It takes to say that we refuse both to throw people into freezing cages at Gitmo with no access to lawyers, or to accept waterboarding as a means of interrogation for security. Obviously I want to find out if there will be an attack on our soil, but I have faith that taking the high road will not only provide more reliable information, but also it will show those who want to hurt us that they were not right about us - that no matter what they do to us, we won't fall to their level - to do so only makes their actions that much more understandable.

Since you can read German, have you ever read "Ich war Hitlerjunge Solomon" by Solomon Perel? It was the first German book I read, and the story is amazing (the movie Europa, Europa was based on it). There's also "Neger, Neger Schornsteinfeger" which is published in English under the name "Destined to Witness" by Hans-Juergen Massaquoi. I read that in German (all 500 pages!), too, but someday I should read it in English to get the nuances. It's about a half-Liberian, half-German boy growing up in Nazi Germany. It's fascinating how he must face so many hurdles because he is black, and yet because of who his German family is, he is able to 'get away' with a lot, too. Strange things happen in extreme situations; "good friends" locking him out of the bunker during an airraid, etc. What both these books show are people who are perfectly willing and able to be open-minded toward those of other races and religions, but either feel helpless or caught up in the face of oppression towards the others. Destined to Witness also shows how easy it is to influence the young. Five year old Hans-Juergen, although no stranger to encountering racism, bought the Nazi theories hook, line and sinker until his mother snapped him out of it.

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Here is where the birds sing! Here is where the sky is blue!

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[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ami_fee68 17 years ago

I guess he was so floored by my argument that he decided to renounce technology, and build a little cabin in the Wyoming wilderness.

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Here is where the birds sing! Here is where the sky is blue!

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[–] jackboot 16 years ago

I guess he was so floored by my argument

And with this little bit of hubris you have completely negated your entire arrogant, elitist and academically long-winded argument.

But, before you showed yourself to be the "superior" being that you quite apparently believe yourself to be, your argument was a tiresome rant full of holes resting solely on the weight of a too-great volume of words. Instead of pleasuring yourself with such flights of fancy and indulgent invective, get your nose out of the books and out of academia and live real life among real people, of all levels of accomplishment and intelligence.

How dare you be so arrogant. A little humble discourse would go much further than pompous hubris.

Your argument is an abject failure.

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[–] ami_fee68 16 years ago

I guess he was so floored by my argument
And with this little bit of hubris you have completely negated your entire arrogant, elitist and academically long-winded argument.
But, before you showed yourself to be the "superior" being that you quite apparently believe yourself to be, your argument was a tiresome rant full of holes resting solely on the weight of a too-great volume of words. Instead of pleasuring yourself with such flights of fancy and indulgent invective, get your nose out of the books and out of academia and live real life among real people, of all levels of accomplishment and intelligence.
How dare you be so arrogant. A little humble discourse would go much further than pompous hubris.
Your argument is an abject failure.

Speaking of elitist vocabularies: The appropriate word here is not hubris, but rather HUMOR. Look it up. And after you have done that, argue against what I actually said, not just how I said it. Then I might consider whether your critique is a valid assessment.

The most hilarious bit here is your lot of five dollar words demanding that I "get (my) nose out of the books and out of academia and live real life among real people, of all levels of accomplishment and intelligence" as if you have a freakin' clue about my life.

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To be driven by lovers- A king might envy us...

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[–] mwillardsullivan 16 years ago

Funny how Mei Lai was mentioned considering how that was stopped by other American soldiers. I also find it amusing how segregation and Japanese internment is now on par with the Holocaust or the Japanese atrocities in China.

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[–] ami_fee68 16 years ago

Funny how Mei Lai was mentioned considering how that was stopped by other American soldiers.

And perpetrated by Americans and covered up by the American Government which called the slaughter of innocents a "military victory".

I also find it amusing how segregation and Japanese internment is now on par with the Holocaust or the Japanese atrocities in China.

I never put them 'on par' with either. My point is not that America is more evil than Hitler, rather that we are perfectly capable of doing wrong as evidenced by such injustice.
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To be driven by lovers- A king might envy us...

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[–] mwillardsullivan 16 years ago

And perpetrated by Americans and covered up by the American Government which called the slaughter of innocents a "military victory".

It was a piss poor cover up considering that it was on mainstream news only a year later. And I wouldn't go as far as to say that all of the villagers were "innocents". Weapon catches and spiderholes were found in the village.

I never put them 'on par' with either. My point is not that America is more evil than Hitler, rather that we are perfectly capable of doing wrong as evidenced by such injustice.

You drew a direct comparison between the holocaust and Japanese atrocities committed against the Chinese populance with segregation and internment. Don't lie now.

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[–] ami_fee68 16 years ago

It was a piss poor cover up considering that it was on mainstream news only a year later. And I wouldn't go as far as to say that all of the villagers were "innocents". Weapon catches and spiderholes were found in the village.

How poorly it was covered up is irrelevant. Does the cover up of Pat Tillman's murder not matter because we found out about it within a couple years? And just because they weren't *all* innocent should condemn those who were?

---I never put them 'on par' with either. My point is not that America is more evil than Hitler, rather that we are perfectly capable of doing wrong as evidenced by such injustice.---
You drew a direct comparison between the holocaust and Japanese atrocities committed against the Chinese populance with segregation and internment. Don't lie now.

I didn't lie. Just because, for example, rape isn't murder doesn't make rape right. Just because segregation did not include the atrocities of the holocaust doesn't make it not evil, it is evil to a 'lesser degree', but evil nonetheless. Ramblin Fever said this:

People are different. Societies are different. Races are different. We are not one world. And history proves it. The Japanese...were notorious for the savage treatment of POW's and civilians. ... If we're all prone to the same evil acts as you claim, why didn't the Americans and its allies force women civilians into prostitution as the Japanese did? Or use prisoners for bayonet practice, biological experiments, and forced labor? Why didn’t the Americans eat their prisoners as the Japanese did?

And this is what I said:

If ignoring the evils done by the United States is not naive, then nothing is. Just because we may not have forced women into prostitution or exterminated people systematically does not mean we have never done anything wrong.

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To be driven by lovers- A king might envy us...

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[–] Banjo_oz 14 years ago

Thankyou, Ami, for your posts in this thread... I heartily agree with you and wish more folks would open their eyes and see things this way... the world is not "black and white", no matter how many times it is attempted to convince us otherwise.

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[–] ami_fee68 14 years ago

Thank you very much, Banjo.

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To be driven by lovers- A king might envy us...

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[–] wildcardgal 16 years ago

It's perfectly possible to recognize both good and bad in a single thing. America is frequently a fine and noble country, her citizens can achieve great things. However, just as frequently America is neither fine nor noble. Substantial numbers of american children grow up hungry every day and yet other Americans complain that their taxes shouldn't be used to feed the poor because they honestly believe that it's the childrens OWN FAULT! That isn't something to love or admire or pretend it's not happening, that's something to complain about and strive to change.

Let slip the Determined Kitten of Doom!

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[–] griffinresurgent 16 years ago

"And, I assume that you have a source to back up that comment about the Japanese being cannibals? That particular act I have never heard of, and I have, though casually, studied this area quite a bit."

Not all are clickable. But I remember a newspaper account when the Japanese ambassador to the Philippines apologized for cannibalism committed by troops in Mindanao. Apparently this also happened a lot in New Guinea, maybe due to lack of rations. But the ones in the Philippines were done not against prisoners of war, but against village folk who were hunted down for meat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Cannibalism

Griffin

Evolution takes no prisoners.

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[–] ami_fee68 16 years ago

Thank you, although in regards to such topics, sometimes - despite the importance of knowledge - one is more grateful to remain ignorant.
I appreciate someone finally responding to my inquiry.
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To be driven by lovers- A king might envy us...

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[–] pths10 15 years ago

"Just because we may not have forced women into prostitution or exterminated people systematically does not mean we have never done anything wrong."

False! - The U.S. did exterminate people systematically; haven't you ever heard of the Native Americans? After that sentence I had to stop reading your post because it is obvious that you know nothing.

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[–] ami_fee68 15 years ago

Pths10: It's really sad that you didn't read anything in context (including the long since deleted message to which I was responding), - excuse me - anything at all of what I wrote. You might have figured out that we are potentially on the same side of the argument, however embarrassing that may be. It doesn't help you appear less ignorant to me when you fly off the cuff and respond before you have an understanding of my position (BY READING). While I admit that my examples of America's wrongs were from various moments in history, I was actually arguing against John Q. Patriot who insisted that the Japanese were pure evil and that we were perfect, blah, blah, blah, specifically during WWII. I believe the Trail of Tears was a hundred years before Hitler was elected, therefore our wrongs at the time would not have been contemporary to the Japanese internment. Just sayin'. Nonetheless, I apologize for only inserting the ambiguous phrase "may not have" and the vague word "systematically" into the sentence to argue with someone about our behavior during World War II, because we didn't tattoo numbers on my Cherokee cousins' arms or - as far as I know - build giant ovens for them to burn in. Pox-infested blankets seem too random to be "systematic", but that's just my opinion.

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[–] pths10 15 years ago

Yes, maybe I was a bit too judgmental, however, it was impossible for me to read the previous reply because it was deleted, so I was unable to ascertain the true "context" of you're response. With that being said, I acknowledge that you do know what you know your history and were only trying to make a point, I was just pointing out your overstatement. You were right, we are friends. No harm done, at least none worth arguing about on the internet.

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[–] soblessed 13 years ago

Absolutely right! Don't forget America's Eugenics program that inspired the Nazis! From Wikipedia~ When Nazi administrators went on trial for war crimes in Nuremberg after World War II, they justified the mass sterilizations (over 450,000 in less than a decade) by citing the United States as their inspiration.[66] The Nazis had claimed American eugenicists inspired and supported Hitler's racial purification laws, and failed to understand the connection between those policies and the eventual genocide of the Holocaust. How many Nazi war criminals did this country shelter after WW II?

What about the American government's program of the genocide of the American Indian?

I am an American but it makes me want to puke every time I hear some bull-crapping ignorant politician boast about how great this country and our brand of democracy is!

Plus our 'great' history of installing DESPOTIC leaders in nations around the globe. No wonder arrogant know-it-all hypocritical Americans are hated everywhere!

But the vast majority of American SHEEPLE who are too lazy and ignorant to question anything will never have a clue!

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[–] sevenof9fl 17 years ago

"Americans have always been the good guys?"

I think there are people at Mei Lai and Abu Ghraib who would disagree with you; if they were alive to do so.

Moron.

Eddie: "You just broke his ankle, Jack!"
Jack: "He shouldn't have been playing with adults." ii.iv

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[–] psdhart 15 years ago

Well said, chechrissie and ami_fee68, I tottally agree with your postings.
Good on you

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[–] ami_fee68 15 years ago

:o)

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To be driven by lovers- A king might envy us...

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[–] tsujisushi 15 years ago

hey...can u not use "japs?" to mean japanese? it's rather offensive, you know...to a japanese person like myself. thanks.

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[–] notting_hill_gate 15 years ago

the film definitely portrayed the japanese in a positive light, and avoided showing the extreme things they did. it seems the jews are quite sympathetic with the japanese, which is ironic, considering the japanese were teamed up with the germans.

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[–] Esmacious 15 years ago

the film definitely portrayed the japanese in a positive light, and avoided showing the extreme things they did

The film is rated PG - a lot of things are implied rather than shown explicitly (the beatings and fights, and the apparent rape of Jim's mother before he gets back to the house).

But apart from anything, the camp in the film is a civilian internment camp, not a military POW camp - the internees were very short of food but otherwise not treated badly. That was based on Ballard's own experience of such a camp.

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[–] BigJohn74 15 years ago

I liked the way thet the Japanese were portrayed in a humanistic way in this movie - some good, some bad, shades of gray. Apparently, this is incomprehensible to some people who expect the usual Hollywood formula of "good guys" who are brave, noble, and morally upright and "bad guys" who are purely evil, immoral, inhuman caricatures.

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[–] thbryn 15 years ago

"japs ....it's rather offensive, you know"
Did any enemy not have a "rather offensive" name for their adversaries? I don't hear the Germans complaining about a half-dozen or so directed against them.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] dlmedley2003 14 years ago

Many of them were/are...

'Empire of the Sun' reminds me of how she ruined my dreams...

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[–] L0GAN5 13 years ago

Biggest crime of World War 2: the holocaust

Second biggest crime: dropping the atom bomb

The behavior of the Japanese comes way behind the behavior of the countries that perpetrated those two atrocities.

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[–] moonbal 13 years ago

Google Japanese atrocities in WWII before you post this garbage.
You insult the victims of Japanese's heinous war crimes.

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[–] L0GAN5 13 years ago

I'm not condoning the actions of the Japanese, but dropping nukes on civilians is as bad as it gets. Kettle, pot, black and all that.

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[–] subase 13 years ago

Yeah but the bomb was dropped by the military and civilian leadership, who've hardly been beacons of decency.

We are talking about the average japanese soldier. I'd hardly call any fanaticism 'noble'.

Theoretically if a vote was taken. The japanese soldiers would have voted for nuking civilians in every country except their own.

But if you held a vote by american soldiers, I'm sure the majority would not have wanted to nuke any civilians in any country.

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[–] subase 13 years ago

Unit 731 is probably worse than the holocaust. The jap army also had tens of thousands of sex slaves accompanying their army. (not prostitutes there by choice) Also torture and killing of the wounded was not uncommon and of course POW deaths were incredible.

Noble my ass.

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[–] pearlimaew 13 years ago

I have not read all of the comments on this thread, but I just wanted to say that I think the OP might have a point. While there are certainly films depicting good Germans who simply pretend to believe in the Nazi ideology, I have not seen any with Nazis who believe in the core beliefs of Nazism portrayed as the good guys. And I know this is seen from Jamie's view, but you would be hard-pressed to find a film about a Jewish child in a Nazi concentration camp who thinks that Nazi soldiers are just the bees' knees. HOWEVER, based on this film the Japanese camps were not nearly as bad as the Nazi camps, so...although, I suppose you could argue that Jamie's adoration of the Japanese was Stockholm Syndrome.

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[–] kowloonzai 12 years ago

The problem I have about this film is not so much about the Japanese - Jamie is in a westerner specific camp, and does not know what they do to the Chinese, and believe me, their concentration camps for Chinese really were in the same league as the german extermination camps.
What bothers me is what the film says about Chinese. They are depicted as brutal, uneducated thieves, basically, and as mere decoration, almost like unwanted guests - yet this happens in their country, and this whole war there is about China.
Many don't understand why Jamie gets slapped by that Chinese woman. Jamie does not understand.
Does anybody understand what was western colonialism and international concessions in China at that time ? Do you know that whole areas of Shanghai were forbidden to "Chinese and dogs" with matching signboards? Does Jamie understand himself ? No, he only sees Chinese from a colonial, irresponsible, naively patronizing way.
This is what I find really disturbing in the movie. I respect the point of view, but you don't get the whole story.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] Captain_Wesker 8 years ago

The film's depiction of Imperial Japanese soldiers was a BIT more nuanced than your description of it.

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It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing .

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