Enterprise A could have been brand new - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (1986) Discussion

[–] bjlevine 12 years ago

Unlikely. It would take significant time to build a new Starship. Kirk went from Court Martial to hero in a few seconds, thanks to time travel technology.

Pretty sure the original script called for a space suited painter to be renaming the ship when the crew arrived in space dock.

And if by Gene, you're referring to Roddenberry, he had very little to do with TVH, and was likely in full development mode for TNG at the time.

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

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[–] Porpoise01 12 years ago

It COULD have been a new ship they were just completing when the need arose. After all, Excelsior was an "experiement."

But it's more likely they renamed another ship. If you look REALLY close, you can see the paint is a little thicker under the name as though somebody had, say, repainted a model to recenter the name after adding a character.

I'm tired.
I hope it won't be much longer.

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[–] dragonstephen-1 12 years ago

My theory is this ship was built BEFORE Enterprise was destroyed and then when Kirk and co came back this ship was suddenly named Enterprise A to honour kirk

IMDB is full of retards

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[–] bjlevine 12 years ago

Seeing as she was decommissioned (TUC) just a few years later, I think you have to go with the idea that this is a re-christened older ship.

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

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[–] silversurfer19507 12 years ago

The USS Yorktown was renamed the Enterprise-A and given to Kirk.

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[–] bjlevine 12 years ago

Well, that's Gene Roddenberry's explanation, in a nod to the ship originally being named the Yorktown in his original show pitch to the networks.

In any case, it was a ship in serious need of Mr. Scott's touch.

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

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[–] Inspector81 9 years ago

The USS Yorktown was renamed the Enterprise-A and given to Kirk.

This^^

Official canon has always been this since 1986, but I guess people want to create their own fan fiction.

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[–] kerryedavis 12 years ago

It sounded to me like Kirk and crew were decomissioned (retired), not the ship. (Officers also receive a commission, which is what makes them officers.) He says at the end of #6 that (something like) "this ship will soon be the responsibility of a new crew."

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[–] Spifflock_Holmes 12 years ago

It sounded to me like Kirk and crew were decomissioned (retired), not the ship.

The term is not applied to officers in our own day, though I suppose it might be in theirs.

It is, however, applied to ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_decommissioning.

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[–] TheSolarSailor 12 years ago

It sounded to me like Kirk and crew were decomissioned (retired), not the ship. (Officers also receive a commission, which is what makes them officers.) He says at the end of #6 that (something like) "this ship will soon be the responsibility of a new crew." >>> I agree with this, actually. I think everyone assumes that the ship is being decommissioned since that was the case in star Trek III, but in that film it was made clear that the enterprise was old and was NOT going to be refit. Here, not one single thing is stated about the ship being old or no longer being in service. But what we DO know is that the crew was about to retire, thus, decommissioning may indeed be referring to them and not the ship. It's pretty vague and can be interpreted however the viewers wants to interpret it, I suppose. But personally speaking, I think you are right!

- - - - - - -
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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[–] baheidstu-351-733122 12 years ago

Don't forget that the Enterprise B was introduced soon afterwards, certainly within a few years of Kirk and his crews' retirement. They would hardly do something like that if the Enterprise A was still relatively new.

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[–] feenix219 10 years ago

My head canon is a 3rd 5 year mission between 5 and 6... nothing on screen to support that, but I've always liked it.

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[–] kerryedavis 12 years ago

Thicker paint? In the 23rd century, they don't have sanders?

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[–] magic8ball2112 12 years ago

In the end, the only thing 'experimental' about Excelsior was the trans-warp bit. Otherwise, that design pretty much took off in the ST Universe, considering how often it and the occasionally re-dressed Miranda-class (i.e Reliant) ships were seen in the subsequent TV series.

I buy into Roddenberry's schtick about Enterprise - A being the renamed (if similarly aged) Yorktown due to the fact that the practice was continued in DS-9. After the Defiant was blown up but good by the combined Dominion/Breen fleet, a new 'Defiant' shows up 1 episode later when the USS Sao Paulo (of the same class), is renamed.

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[–] kerryedavis 10 years ago

I buy into Roddenberry's schtick about Enterprise - A being the renamed (if similarly aged) Yorktown due to the fact that the practice was continued in DS-9. After the Defiant was blown up but good by the combined Dominion/Breen fleet, a new 'Defiant' shows up 1 episode later when the USS Sao Paulo (of the same class), is renamed.

Wow, I can't believe I missed this part before. Sao Paulo was a brand new ship, including the new design changes to defeat the Breen weapon. They were given special permission to change the name to Defiant in honor of the previous ship.

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[–] kerryedavis 12 years ago

It seems pretty clear in the next film, #5 - The Final Frontier - that the Enterprise A is newly built, both because of what is said (including Spock's comments about the new brig design) and because of how much work Scotty has to do. It was obviously almost completed if not fully completed before the events in movie 4, and just named or renamed before the presentation to Kirk and crew.

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[–] Spifflock_Holmes 12 years ago

It seems pretty clear in the next film, #5 - The Final Frontier - that the Enterprise A is newly built, both because of what is said (including Spock's comments about the new brig design) and because of how much work Scotty has to do.

That "seems pretty clear" only if we ignore the fact that the same work would have been done to refit an existing ship.

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[–] kerryedavis 12 years ago

At just after 15 minutes into "Final Frontier," Scotty records in his engineer's log "I think this new ship was put together by monkeys."

Good enough for you?

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[–] Spifflock_Holmes 12 years ago

Good enough for you?

Nope. The fact that it's a "new ship" to Scotty, or even "new" as compared to the ship it was before, needn't mean it was freshly built from scratch. The rebuilt Enterprise in TMP is described as "almost totally new" as well (and its equipment and facilities are described as "new" without qualification), and it hasn't even been rechristened.

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[–] kerryedavis 12 years ago

Scotty doesn't seem the type who would say "built" when he really meant "rebuilt," or "refit," or whatever.

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[–] Spifflock_Holmes 12 years ago

Scotty doesn't seem the type who would say "built" when he really meant "rebuilt," or "refit," or whatever.

Maybe that's why he doesn't say "built."

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[–] kerryedavis 12 years ago

Fine, "put together." That still implies brand new more than refit, etc. And Scotty definitely does say "new," no denying or arguing with that. In fact, he emphasizes "new."

Also, I would expect they would have kept building Constitution class ships until the Excelsior class was fully proven and probably for some time even after that, until several Excelsior class had been built, proven, taken on shake-down voyages, filled with experienced crews, etc. Especially since the Excelsior class might have been intended for different types and durations of missions entirely.

If it was originally supposed to have trans-warp drive, maybe it was intended for exploration of more distant parts of the galaxy. Meanwhile, new Constitution class ships would have still been built for use closer to home. And it's possible that 3 or more Constitution class ships could have been built for the same "cost" (in terms of materials, time, etc) as one Excelsior. So there are other advantages to continued production of the Constitution class, at least for a while.

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[–] Spifflock_Holmes 12 years ago

Fine, "put together." That still implies brand new more than refit, etc.

Not to me.

And Scotty definitely does say "new," no denying or arguing with that. In fact, he emphasizes "new."

I don't recall that he especially emphasizes it, but it doesn't matter if he does. As I've already said, the word "new" is used several times in TMP, sometimes with a very great deal of emphasis, to refer to the refitted Enterprise, even without any rechristening. I don't see the slightest reason why Scotty couldn't or wouldn't refer to a rechristened ship to which he's just been assigned, a ship that's completely unfamiliar to him and that's at any rate been fitted with all-new equipment, as "new."

There's room for argument and speculation either way, but it doesn't "seem pretty clear" to me that the ship in ST5 is brand new rather than a refit. The evidence is inconclusive at best.

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[–] kerryedavis 12 years ago

In TMP, Decker says "almost totally new" not "new." If you're going to be picky, at least be consistently picky. Scotty didn't say "almost totally new" in #5, he said "new," and he did emphasize it. I've checked it again within the past few minutes before starting these posts.

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[–] Spifflock_Holmes 12 years ago

In TMP, Decker says "almost totally new" not "new." If you're going to be picky, at least be consistently picky.

Perhaps you should try actually reading my posts before you get snarky about my alleged inconsistency. I quoted that line verbatim two or three posts back and specifically noted that this description is applied to a ship that hasn't been rechristened.

The ship in ST5 could be new. But the evidence is not as conclusive as you say it is, and it's not "pretty clear" that it just plain can't be a refit.

I'm done here. If you want to insist that it must be a brand-new ship anyway, have it at. But the evidence is not decisively in your favor unless you cherry-pick it or interpret it according to personal bias, and that's the end of it.

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[–] bjlevine 12 years ago

The ship, regardless of its construction date, was new to them, as opposed to the "old" Enterprise. I always thought that Scotty was referring to the fact that it had none of the modifications he had made to the Enterprise.

Here's an example: the Enterprise refit design routes the phasers through the warp drive for increased phaser power. Not a great idea as seen in TMP. In the book, Kirk mentions this to Scotty and Scotty says that he and Decker had already been working on a way to reroute this. In TWOK, they are able to fire phasers after the warp drive was knocked out, so obviously, Scotty had made that (or some similar) fix.

Either that, or they whipped up the new ship in a couple of weeks.

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

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[–] kerryedavis 12 years ago

I'd like to think that in the intervening years, Scotty's improvements would have become standard to the model. He is the Miracle Worker, after all.

Also, does anyone believe that Scotty doesn't know exactly who invented Transparent Aluminum?

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[–] Spifflock_Holmes 12 years ago

Also, does anyone believe that Scotty doesn't know exactly who invented Transparent Aluminum?

Not me. In fact, in the novelization, Scotty does know for sure that Dr. Nichols is the one credited with its invention. Makes sense to me.

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[–] bjlevine 12 years ago

While he might not know it was Nichols, he has to know it was Plexicorp.

Which line is funnier?

"Why? How do we know he didn't invent the thing?"

"Maybe...except that he's the guy who invented the thing."

Since TVH was a comedy, they went for the bigger laugh.

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

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[–] persen1 12 years ago

I'd like to think that in the intervening years, Scotty's improvements would have become standard to the model. He is the Miracle Worker, after all.

He is a very good engineer, but not a miracle worker. You will find that out when watching Star Trek III.
Here he claims it will take 8 weeks to repair the Enterprise, but since they don't have that much time, he will do it in 2 weeks.
Kirk then asks if he always has multiplied his repair time by 4, and Scooty admits he always has.

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[–] bjlevine 12 years ago

If anything, Scotty was always the guy telling Kirk why something COULDN'T be done. But he did manage to figure out how to make the Romulan cloaking device work with the Enterprises shields in something ten minutes.

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

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[–] feenix219 10 years ago

Especially since we don't know how long that ship was off-line before it was refit and renamed Enterprise A... it could have just gone through a pretty major upgrade. For all we knew, it just got its TMP refit, or, it was just updated with *newer* stuff then any of the other Constitution class ships. All we know is that it needed a lot of fine tuning. ;)

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[–] Inspector81 9 years ago

Quotes from the officially licensed USS Enterprise Haynes Workshop Manual:

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-U-S-S-Enterprise-Haynes/dp/1451621299/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435087179&sr=8-1&keywords=haynes+uss+enterprise+workshop+manual

page 63:
"Another Constitution-class ship, the U.S.S. Yorktown NCC-1717, was recommisioned as the Enterprise NCC-1701-A in 2286 and eventually retired from service in 2293."

page 65:
"Kirk's new ship was the U.S.S. Yorktown, which had recently undergone a substantial refit. In honor of her predecessor she was recommissioned as the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-A."

Technical Consultant on this book is Michael Okuda.

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[–] ogservice 12 years ago

Saying a CONSTITUTION-class refit would then be built brand new as NCC-1701-A is a bit strange.

Let's not forget the NCC-1701 in the first three movies is the same ship as in TOS. It's been in the yard, refitted and put back to space. It can be logically concluded Star Fleet would make the same upgrades to the other surviving CONSTITUTION class starships as they returned from their own five year mission (CONSTELLATION, EXETER, DEFIANT, INTERPID, and a couple of others I can't remember offhand were lost in action. I can't remember if M-5 destroyed a ship or just severely disabled it.)

So, several years after the NCC-1701 is refit and put back to space, another CONSTITUTION class ship, YORKTOWN, comes in to space dock and begins its own refit procedure. About the time the Probe approaches Earth, the refit is complete and Captain Kirk and his command staff take the bridge.

This heralds in the swan song for the last of the CONSTITUTION-class starships as they are all being replaced by larger more powerful designs beginning with EXCELSIOR.

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[–] bluesman-20 12 years ago

ENTERPRISE -A was a brand new ship. It was apprently being bulit while the older ENTERPRISE was being decommissoned. The ENTERPRISE is the flag ship of Starfleet.
It's a legendary ship. The first ship according to the Novel of Star Trek the motion picture and The Lost years to make it back after a five year mission. All other constitution class ships either were destroyed or the Captains went mad or the crews died.
During the Events of the Lost years The ENTERPRISE is taken apart and refitted piece by piece with new tech. The ENTERPRISE is essentiallay a new ship redesigned and rebulit. However it isn't a Brand New ship.
The ENTERPRISE -A IS a Brand new ship bulit to the Original ENTERPRISE's specifications.
Just because the original ENTERPRISE was over twenty years old and being decommissioned didn't mean they weren't going to bulid a new ENTERPRISE. Which as I said before is the flagship of Starfleet.
Also keep in mind EXCELSIOR was just a experimental ship. No one knew if it would work as well as it did in the planning stages. It was literally the only one of it's kind. Just because they bulit one EXCELSIOR didn't mean they would abandon the Constitution line altogether.
The ENTERPRISE-A was retired when Captain Kirk and the Crew of the Enterrpise retired out of respect for them.
By then ENTERPRISE -B With Captain Harriman was well on the way because ENTERPRISE -B appears to be as the same design as EXCELSIOR. which makes sense if Starfleet wishes to move forward with a newer generation of constituation class ships.

I Hate Rude behavior in a man. I Won't tolerate it.-Captain Woodrow F. Call.

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[–] Spifflock_Holmes 12 years ago

ENTERPRISE -A was a brand new ship.

And we know this how? Did you read the rest of the thread?

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[–] bluesman-20 12 years ago

I've read the rest of the thread. In the book it was implied it was new. In Star Trek V it was very much indicated it was new. I believed then and I do still now that when they decommissioned the Original ENTERPRISE they had the ENTERPRISE-A ready to go as it's replacement. Read the book series STAR TREK; The Lost years. Starting with A flag full of stars it tells you How they do a refit on a starship. The ENTERPRISE was refitted andchanged around but still had the original hull. And the Original saucer. The Nacelles and Jefferies tubes were changed as well as the phasers designs. but Still it was the Original ENTERPRISE. You can strip a buliding inside and keep the original facade up. And it's still considered the same buliding just remodeled. That's what happened to the Original ENTERPRISE.
At the End of Star Trek IV They are still making constituation class starships. And Wouldn't give it's Flagship over to a remodeled one.

I Hate Rude behavior in a man. I Won't tolerate it.-Captain Woodrow F. Call.

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[–] Spifflock_Holmes 12 years ago

I've read the rest of the thread. . . . In Star Trek V it was very much indicated it was new.

We've discussed ST5 in this thread, so read it again. It's not reliably implied in the film that the ship is newly constructed.

The Nacelles and Jefferies tubes were changed as well as the phasers designs. but Still it was the Original ENTERPRISE. You can strip a buliding inside and keep the original facade up.

So wait, now you're saying it wasn't newly constructed, just refitted? What's your point, then?

At the End of Star Trek IV They are still making constituation class starships. And Wouldn't give it's Flagship over to a remodeled one.

You keep harping on this "flagship" thing. Do you know what a "flagship" is? I ask because the Enterprise isn't one according to the present-day meaning of the term and isn't called one in TOS or any of the first three TOS-cast films.

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[–] bluesman-20 12 years ago

I'm referring to the original ENTERPRISE it wasn't newly constructed between the events of TOS and TMP. It was stripped down tothe hull. And existing parts were replaced .
A Flagship is the lead ship in a fleet of ships. typically the first the fastest most heavily armed and the most well known. or in common usage the most important or leading member of a group. And That's The ENTERPRISE.
The ENTERPRISE has been cited in various books as being Starfleets best ship and in some books ENTERPRISE is the most well known ship.
I'm looking at examples such as Diane Carey's Finai Frontier where Captain Robert April unveils a new type of ship faster and more able to defend itself. The Starship is sent on a mission to rescue Federation civilains from hostile Klingons the name April gives it is ENTERPRISE.
The ENTERPRISE is the first ever constituation class starship the largest and fastest.
The Show ENTERPRISE gives us a Starfleet that's struggling to come up with a ship that's their own and when they do despite subtle protests from the Vulcans the Ships name is ENTERPRISE.
Just the fact that it's ENTERPRISE-A NCC 1701, Tells you of the importance ofthe ENTERPRISE to starfleet.
And not just ENTERPRISE -A there is a ENTERPRISE B,C,D,E when other ships do not have the letter designation.
Also a Flagship is the Best ship available bulit to be the best ship of the fleet.
In this case there is an Historical implication to the name ENTERPRISE.

I Hate Rude behavior in a man. I Won't tolerate it.-Captain Woodrow F. Call.

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[–] Spifflock_Holmes 12 years ago

I'm referring to the original ENTERPRISE it wasn't newly constructed between the events of TOS and TMP. It was stripped down tothe hull. And existing parts were replaced .

So it's not a new ship; it's a rebuilt, refitted one. Are you saying that's what happened in ST4/5?

A Flagship is the lead ship in a fleet of ships. typically the first the fastest most heavily armed and the most well known. . . . Also a Flagship is the Best ship available bulit to be the best ship of the fleet.

No. A flagship is one from which a flag officer (usually an admiral) exercises command of a fleet. And again, the Enterprise is never, ever, even once, referred to as a "flagship" in TOS or in the first three films (before it's destroyed), and it's even implied in ST:TMP that Kirk can't command the ship because he's an admiral. So again -- your point?

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[–] bluesman-20 12 years ago

Modern usage of the english language. Flagship is the best fastest most well known ship of the fleet because it serves the flag officers. By Trek's time Enterprise is the Grand ship of Starfleet. Everyone knows it. She is the fastest ship the one most people can name.
In ST:TMP Kirk can't command ENTERPRISE Because Decker is the Captain. However Kirk Is given Command by Nogura who gives Kirk a temp reduction in Rank to Captain.
Because of this Decker is given a temp reduction to Commander.
My point is check the books and check the original series. In the ultimate Computer Kirk's ENTERPRISE is chosen to have Daystrom's new computer installed because the ENTERPRISE is the best ship in the fleet.
There is also the matter of the speed records ENTERPRISE Sets.
By the Time of ST:TWOK Kirk assumes Command of ENTERPRISE Despite his being a admiral as he is the senior officer according to Spock.
And In TOS Captain Pike is promoted to a Commodore and given a fleet of ships to command before his accident.
It seems the term Flag officer has changed somewhat in the 23rd century.

Also ENTERPRISE hosted Amassaders and peace conferences. It seems she is important enough to be chosen to do such jobs.

I Can't See Starfleet taking a older ship like the YORKTOWN refitting her and giving her the name ENTERPRISE. that would just water downany historical importance the ENTERPRISE name has. even if it's only symbolic in this case then.

I Hate Rude behavior in a man. I Won't tolerate it.-Captain Woodrow F. Call.

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[–] holmes6 12 years ago

I believe the first time the Enterprise is mentioned as a flagship is the Enterprsie-D in TNG. But flagship in that she is the best the whole fleet has to offer. And commands fleets in the absence of someone ranked higher than the captain of the Enterprise-D (Picard in this case)

When admirals in TNG are swanning about commanding fleets of varying sizes, they tend to do it aboard Excelsior class ships. Of course, by the time Picard is swanning about in his lovely Soverign class Enterprise-E, Admirals might be going about on Galaxy class ships.

Really it's the actions of Kirk and his crew that make Enterprise the pride of the fleet for decades to come. It's only really from TNG onwards that they bring forward the notion that the starship Enterprise is just a continuation of the long history of ships called Enterprise. One being NASA's test space shuttle Enterprise (named after the starship, of course) and by the tv series Enterprise, the NCC-1701 line of Enterprises are a continuation from the NX-01 Enterprise which helped form the Federation. That sounds contradictiory to Kirk's Enterprise being the reasaon the name means so much, and it is. Only because more 'history' to Star Trek has been added after the fact. (note - that's not a dig at the show Enterprise, I love it!)

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[–] magic8ball2112 12 years ago

"could have" but why hand over a minty fresh starship to a command crew of old veterans? Remember how, in TMP, Kirk was unfamiliar to a lot of the technical revamps done to the Enterprise? Imagine handing over a new ship to this bunch, & having their subordinates have to continually walk them through the revamps & out & out redesigns. Plus, in a backhanded way, why let a bunch who'd just been courtmartialed get awarded a new ship, leading to those coming up the ranks to have to wait or else deal with an older model?

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[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

You put your best and most experienced personnel in charge of your newest, most powerful, and most unproven ships. Ever wonder why only the best pilots are chosen to be test pilots.

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[–] chez_paul 10 years ago

"constituion"

"tranwarp"

"constition"

"constition"

"definate"

The above from a poster that also writes "IMDB is full of retards"

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[–] Jose_Accent_On_E 10 years ago

The above from a poster that also writes "IMDB is full of retards"

Thanks for your valuable contribution...

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[–] coreycitn63 9 years ago

The Constitution Class was obsolete by Star Trek III. Starfleet was modifying the flaws of the Excelsior and rechristened the final Constitution ship to the Enterprise.

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[–] marty1968 9 years ago

I'm sure the real life reason was because making a big [refit model was about 15' long IRC] model with much detail for new movie shoots is expensive, Paramount probably didn't know if this movies would be the last if it wasn't a monster hit & weren't gonna spend money for just one movie. The bridge sets, engineering, halls were all mostly destroyed or reused after Enterprise was destroyed in III and it shows in V & VI [the original warpcore from TMP/II 'ended up' on Voyager]

Also I'm sure producers didn't want to piss off fans if a new ship was given to the crew so an A was slapped on 1701, these days with CGI its cheaper to give a new ship as was done between Generations & First COntact

Side Note: for those who read the comics between III & IV, Kirk was in command of the Excelsior and had many adventures in it but of course those are comics and don't have the same weight as movie.
There was also a book 'sequel' to this movie called Probe which filled many gaps after the events of this movie

I think it was a mistake but its 'history' now... now was a reason ever given on screen as to why the Klingon ship interiors changed so much between III & IV? ;)

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[–] bjlevine 9 years ago

Don't give the comics much weight.

As for your last question, sure: Montgomery Scott. I'm sure he wanted it refit to be more like a Starfleet vessel, and had all the resources he needed on Vulcan.

It's funny...for me the Enterprise was like a character on the show, and I never thought of the A as being the same character. It was just another ship.

👷👳
Bob the Builder and Hadji walk into a bar...

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[–] marty1968 9 years ago

Yeah, since the destruction [of sets] since III it was 'lets scrounge for anything that looks like a spaceship' VI was the saddest since they were using TNG engineering section and hallways but the story made up for the distractions, V was great for the Jefferies tubes you could drive a van thru.

But lets get real if the commander of a Navy battleship blew it up [with an Island?] I doubt he would be chilling anywhere and just be allowed to float back home in an enemy ship, even if Vulcan had some no extradition BS... there would be at least a starship to take Kirk and co. back home, but I forget there neverf more than 3 ships in the Federation and never any around earth 

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[–] bjlevine 9 years ago

V also had that Enterprise using Timelord technology that had 76 decks.

👷👳
Bob the Builder and Hadji walk into a bar...

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[–] ManuelManipulation 9 years ago

Yeah, V'Gerprise.

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[–] bjlevine 9 years ago

Plus it could fly to the center of the galaxy (like 25,000 light years) in just a few hours.

17 Fake CJs Ignored (and counting)

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