very well said about dale dye pitt! i bet dale dye was popular leader with his troops when he was in nam for all the things you mention. he have everything a good leader need and more. he is tough but also warm heart and to have these two things in equal measures is very great thing to have. i bet if i served under him in war, i would feel more confident surviving under this mans leadership.
and dale was real natural when put in front of camera. can show all the right emotion. the american military seem to provide lots of characters during this time, as r. lee ermey become famous as well.
" But I guess the thing is when the enemy overran the position of Bravo they were all clumped together instead of spread all out while in attack mode"
yes exactly pitt. i forgot rhah told them to stay in there holes, but taylor had to play john wayne ahahah.
" I have read other accounts of American combat troops in Vietnam calling in artilery on their own position since there were more enemy there than their own men. I guess it makes sense but what an awful thing to have to do."
yes i agree pitt i would have told the captain to re-think his order. and yes it was common for air strikes and arty to be called on friendly position. this is good example from ia drang, when gi's are about to be overrun, the strikes come in right next to there postion, and some friendlys killed:
https://youtu.be/1dn8YAJtLLg?t=385
yes bingo fuel mean he is low. no idea why they say this hahahah
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PittPanthers47 (237)
a year ago
BO--- calling in artillery or mortars or even heavy explosive ordnance from a jet is bad enough---but I would draw the line at the napalm crap. That is some bad stuff and much worse than the others which are bad enough. I would want no part of that.
I cringe every time I see that movie Tears Of The Sun when the bad African soldiers in the red berets get the napalm treatment in the end. i like how their leader is seen screaming when he sees it coming down. I would be doing the same. But they certainly deserved it.
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BOandBarbecue (2264)
a year ago
yes death by napalm worse than hell. i can not imagine being victim of this. just think of how desperate situation is on ground if they are calling in napalm right on top of friendlys. being overrun must be truly scary if you resort to napalm!
i have not seen tears of the sun but this sound like good conclusion. have you seen we were soliders? it have napalm scene, and worse, it happen irl. total nightmare. i cannot watch this film because of that scenes. once is enough!
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PittPanthers47 (237)
a year ago
I did see We Were Soldiers at the theater when it came out back in 2002. It certainly had some good parts to it but others that I would be getting out the editing red pen to make some changes to it if I had been in charge. It certainly depicted a very pivotal episode of American history in relation to our involvement in SE Asia.
I read the book afterwards and it was as fine a battlefield account that I have ever read. That was NO place to be. The landed right on the hornets nest with something like 4,000 good NVA troops right there in the mountain. It was amazing that any of the Americans survived that. Good air support and pounding artillery. My thought was had I been the NVA commander would be to try and take out the artillery support they were getting. I would have sent troops at those places which weren't all that far away, say 5-10 miles away. But I guess that would be battles in themselves and would have required a good number of troops. But upon seeing how devastating the artillery was you had to try and do something.
But I did like the strategy of the NVA commander to try and get in real close to limit the US air and artillery support. It almost worked. I can't imagine the casualties the NVA must have taken there.
Yeah, that napalm scene was horrible. Hard to watch. Once you got hit with that stuff you were basically screwed. You could jump in water and it would still burn. I'm surprised that the Geneva Convention would not outlaw that sort of thing along with landmines. Horrible stuff.
Tears of the Sun is worth a watch if you like the Bruce Willis genre and want to get a glimpse of what goes on in many parts of Africa. I was very intrigued by the movie. The enemy soldiers were something to fear. They were relentless and it was a cool visual with their dark skin and the red berets on their heads.
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BOandBarbecue (2264)
a year ago
was that book on ia drang the one wrote by hal moore and joe galloway? i have to say if it is, then that is book i would very much like to read. i hear good things about this book, pitt.
i have seen many documentary on ia drang. joe galloway was right next to man who get killed by napalm. this poor man look traumatize just by this incident. in documentary i see, this man breaks down just thinking of it. napalm seem inhumane. i read that napalm is now not used in western war because of humane reason, but they still have white phosperous which i think is close relation to napalm.
it is good strategy you have pitt for charlie to try and take out firebases and deny artillery support to gi's. it make sense. there are many examples of this happening in nam where firebases are besiege by i think they must be well protected for charlie to mostly avoid. charlie always got annihilated by gi's when they try and take the battle to americans out in open. i think the battle at end of platoon was an area protecting firebases.
yes this strategy of getting up close to GI is call 'hugging the belt'. it worked against french at dien bien phu. but i think charlie underestimate the skill and talents of american artillery operators and air force, as well as determination of american gi's. these gi's were mostly sons of ww2 veteran so they have fighting in the bloods and are good fighters with heart and determination which too tough to beat.
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PittPanthers47 (237)
a year ago
BO---yes, absolutely it was written by Hal Moore and Joe Galloway. Very, very fine work! I highly recommend it to anyone. As I said, one of the very fine battlefield accounts that i have ever read. I recall finding one of the officers emails online after i read it and sent him an email to express my thoughts to him. He wrote me back with a nice note.
Yeah, my plan to attack the firebases probably would not be overly pragmatic to be honest. As you say they would be very well defended. You would have the logistical problem of moving your troops and equipment there (assuming you know where they were---scouts should know that) through terrain that may not be optimal. You would likely face heavy fire, but at least it likely would divert valuable artillery and air power away from the battle at Ia Drang. But it would also take away many of your troops as well. They probably needed all the men they had for the human wave style of attack they often deployed.
Their best bet to counter the air and artillery was to move in as close as we have talked about. It was a good strategy although that can cost you heavily against a well-trained and determined force such as the First Air Cav. Yes, the soldiers who fought for America in Vietnam were by and large likely just as good as any other war they fought in history. But it was a different kind of war to say the least.
I wonder what kind of artillery the Americans used at the firebases? 105s? or did they go out with the Second World War?
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BOandBarbecue (2264)
a year ago
if you recommence this book pitt then i may have to read. i do not normally read book, only wikipedia article, but this book sound great pitt. which officer did you email pitt? there are many heroes in this great battle. i would like to know what he say. it is great to speak to war veteran from those old wars, they are like real life hero.
are you familiar with battle of khe sanh during tet offensive pitt? i think when charlie attack khe sanh, they overrun its firebase nearby and gi's in firebase were forced to retreat. it seem your strategy was followed on once occasion at least by charlie. it make sense to do this. it is like cutting off life lines.
here is video i find on famous firebase battle in nam, wtih narrator who sound like he been drinking too much caffeine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqgWOyVdxEg
yes according to this they still use 105 howitzer in nam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_the_Vietnam_War
these in bold look like what they use in firebase. M102 sound like upgraded version of M101 used in ww2. probably use more.
Artillery
Self-propelled Howitzer M109 in Vietnam
M55 quad machine gun – used to defend US Army bases and on vehicles
Oerlikon 20 mm cannon – used on riverine crafts
Bofors 40 mm gun – used on riverine crafts
105 mm Howitzer M101A1/M2A1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M101_howitzer
105 mm Howitzer M102 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M102_howitzer
155 mm Howitzer M114 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M114_155_mm_howitzer
M53 Self-propelled 155mm gun
M55 Self-propelled 8-inch howitzer
M107 Self-propelled 175mm gun
M108 Self-propelled 105 mm howitzer
M109 Self-propelled 155 mm howitzer
M110 Self-propelled 8-inch howitzer
L5 pack howitzer 105 mm pack howitzer used by Australia and New Zealand
MIM-23 Hawk – medium-range surface to air missile used in very small quantities by the US Marine
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PittPanthers47 (237)
a year ago
Hey, BO----Yeah, in my opinion the book that We Were Soldiers (which I believe was actually called We Were Soldiers Once and Young) was based upon was top notch. Yes, there were very many heroes in this battle. My dad had a buddy whose brother was killed in it. John Herren was the officer that I got to talk to via email. Classy guy.
I'm sure you know the story of Rick Rescorla (sp??) who fought at Ia Drang and later died in the 9-11 attacks in the WTC buildings. Lots of crazy stories there. I recall a machine gunner named Parrish who after the lull in the fighting got out of his hole and counted over 100 dead NVA right near his area. That is nuts.
I've been watching some scenes from that movie---one question is who are the enemy guys wearing those odd big Vietnamese hats? We see the NVA dressed in their khakis. Were they VC farmers? I didn't quite follow who or what they were.
Yeah, Khe Sanh. Tet offensive. Pretty famous place and even made its way into a Springsteen song. That is a pretty lethal list that you made. I can honestly say I would want nothing to do with any of that being fired at me. Okay, 155s.
Your mention of the firebase reminded me of your previous post and Platoon. I did not get the feeling they were near a firebase as we don't see artillery coming in or do we? I first thought the young soldier the Captain is talking to was at an overrun firebase but I don't think. Not sure. I think Bravo was there to halt the heavy infiltration of NVA from Cambodia during Tet. i wonder what Stone meant by New Year's battle. Jan. 1 for us or did he mean Tet. Likely the latter. We see the village raid take place on Jan. 1, 1968.
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BOandBarbecue (2264)
a year ago
very good you talk to this man john herren pitt. veterans appreciate it when you talk to them and give respects.
yes i read of this great man rick rescorla in youtube comments section of ia drang video i post above. wow, what a brave man! a hero on battlefield and a hero on 9/11. i hear he would sing to peoples to calm them as he was helping them to escape building. great man! so many great man fight in war, it is shame the hippies abuse them when they return to usa in 60s and 70s.
when you say you watch scenes from that movie, do you mean we were soldiers or platoon? because if it is we were soldier, im sorry pitt but i do not remember! i remember everything from platoon and have not watched it from beginning to end in long time, and i watch we were soldier recently hahah. platoon is unforgettable film, every scene and character burned into brain, but we were soldiers i think is just decent 7/10 film and forgettable in many things in it. it could have been better i think!
yes pitt you are right about end of platoon, i agree with you. it is not firebase, it it just basecamps. they say they are bait to lure nva out. they are trying to put plug into entry point from ho chi minh trail of nva coming over border. they are near charlie epicenter. i think the captain is talking to man in jungle who went out on patrol to get charlie, not man at firebase. yes he meant chinese new year i think!
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PittPanthers47 (237)
a year ago
I was watching scenes from We Were Soldiers. In parts it was great and showed a major moment of that conflict. If Americans did not believe that they were embroiled in a war there---they certainly knew it after the horrors of Ia Drang. I honestly don't know how any of those guys survived there. Looks like they fought out in the open for the most part. I would have wanted to get into the cover of the jungle, but the ability to be resupplied by their helicopters was their lifeline. That was how they operated.
I think if I had been in charge of We Were Soliders the first thing I do is really cut out much of that cutting back to the homefront with the wives. Okay, I get that it did well to show the suffering of the families but it took a lot away from the central thesis of the move which was the actual battle at Ia Drang. I could see having maybe one scene showing that but it was a major distraction to keep bouncing back and forth like that.
And the other thing I would have done is to get rid of the over the top patented Mel Gibson charge that we saw in films like Braveheart and The Patriot. That was silly nonsense. I read nothing that it actually happened that way. To make an assault against automatic weapons was to get mowed down where you stood. They should have stuck to the history of the battle and not Hollywood crap nonsense. Those issues caused me to give it a lower grade than what it could have had.
But as I said---I did think they did a good job in many parts of the movie. The book was out of this world. When I was in grad school for American History I know that my one classmate stormed out of The Thin Red Line and demanded a refund. He was appalled by it. I personally didn't think it was that bad. Not great though.
Yeah, good call on Bravo being the bait that lured out the 141st NVA regiment. Bravo and her elements were at the mouth of the bee hive there. Yup, likely right at the Ho Chi Minh trail or at worst at a major area of NVA deployment.
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BOandBarbecue (2264)
a year ago
yes pitt i agree about scenes in we were soldiers showing the wifes. that was the first thing i think of when i think of problems with this film
if the film had came out 10 year before, then it would focus 100% on soldiers in combat. but in 21st century there is new pressure to show things like this in film to give different viewpoint for diversity audience. but a war film will live and die by pacing and story, and every scene with wife kills film stone dead. and the acting when woman find her husband dead? wow! hahahah. worst acting ever!! watch here haha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvkCJQxhQgM
i think the scenes showing hal moore's home life at beginning were fine. all the scenes on base - great. it show background to character and depth before they fly off to battle. then the scenes with wifes on base come and this kill momentum of battle scene haha.
another problem with film is it is filmed in usa. you cannot film nam films in usa. they must be film in places like philippines and thailand, like platoon and casualties of war. these settings give authentic feels to movie, a quality you cant describe, it so important. this film suffer like full metal jacket where you know you are not in nam.
your classmate sound like drama queen. thin red line is weird but not bad hahahah. i did not mind it. very strange but many good actor and at least the film look good.
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PittPanthers47 (237)
a year ago
Okay, that is interesting about filming locations. Where did they film WWS and FMJ at? I must confess that I do not know. I know that the old televison show Tour of Duty which was about Vietnam was filmed in Hawaii, which did not look bad at all to be honest. Lots of backwoods areas in Hawaii that could pass for a jungle in SE Asia.
Yeah, WWS really did need an edit to be honest. I know a lot of people really hated the still pictures scenes the photographer took during the battle. That really did not bother me at all. But to keep showing back home was pretty bad.
I was surprised at the guy's reaction to TRL. Okay, not great but far from bad. Very decent. I remember he blew a gasket over Pearl Harbor as well. I watched it and just enjoyed it as a piece of entertainment. I thought the attack part was quite good save for a few silly parts.
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BOandBarbecue (2264)
a year ago
WWS was film in georgia usa, same as green berets. there excuse was ia drang valley look exactly the same as terrain they film WWS in, georgia. im not so sure. i see pictures of ia drang and it look like se asia to me. WWS would be so much better if they film in se asia.
fmj was film in london docklands (hue scenes) and everywhere else was english countryside with fake palm trees. they could not even get hueys - they rent choppers from english army that were ancient sikorsky helicopters from 1820s. such an inauthentic movie hahah.
also you cannot miss fmj because of the sky - europe always have distinct thick grey clouds/lack of sun and you see them in every scene in fmj hahahahaahha
yes you are right pitt. tour of duty was film in hawaii, but only in first season. they relocation production to south california for later seasons
tropic thunder was film in hawaii too, and while this does not quite look like nam, you can tell at least that it isn't usa or england and that is important.
platoon, apocalypse now and casualties of war are goat nam because there settings play important part (and this also apply to born on the 4th of july and heaven & earth, too). they feel real, like you right there in nam.
yes i agree pitt. pearl harbor was entertaining. it is 3 hour long, but moves fast and action is very good, and josh hartnett gets shot in the end so its okay.
i do not remember still pictures scene in wws but yes, there was problems in the movie. i think mel gibson should have directed this film. i think he would make it better. i agree the bayonet charge was ott.
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PittPanthers47 (237)
a year ago
Wow that is shocking they filmed WWS in freaking Georgia and FMJ in freaking England. I did not know that. Kind of silly. I guess for the home base in the US scnes it would work but not for Ia Drang. Yeah, it did not look all that much like nam but I confess that I do not know speciffically what it looked like. It must have had a decent bit of open ground for the choppers to land during the battle.
I was never real big on FMJ. Not my cup of tea. Okay, yes now that you mention you are correct about Tour of duty. I do recall that now.
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BOandBarbecue (2264)
a year ago
they film fmj in england mainly because stanley kubrick would not leave england hahaha. weird man! he certainly have talent but his movies are weird like him.
yes i agree pitt, i too was never huge fan of fmj. it is too cold. it is not warm hearted like platoon with characters like elias, king etc. film is too mean spirit.
yes they find terrain that look like ia drang in georgia. they make lot of effort to match it up at least.
the comic book nam movies of 80s like missing in actions and rambos went to mexico which i thought was ok.
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