MovieChat Forums > The Name of the Rose (1986) Discussion > One flaw keeps it from greatness

One flaw keeps it from greatness


Okay, a couple of flaws, but the major one is the Psychology of the major characters.

I hate to call a film "dated", because that is the most misused term on imdb. Historical pieces really can't be "dated" in the sense that imdb users claim, because if something is set in the middle ages, it shoud be "dated" for the middle ages.

So when I say that this film is "dated", I don't mean it in the context of historical dating. I do say that it is "dated" to signify popular misconceptions of the sixties and seventies, which made the film already dated by decades when it was put out.

I'll explain.

We get the psychotic killer explained to us as a monk who abhors comedy. This was a popular belief of psychotic behavior from the uneducated film goer of the sixties and seventies, and just not credible for any time period.

We are now getting real life bios of the most vicious psychotic killers, Saddam, the Nazis, nearly all of those who devalued life, as being people who loved comedy.

In fact, the very comedy of which the film spoke was that of 'depersonalization".

"Depersonalization" is the single common ingredient in self righteousness. In order to judge and execute others on a mission, it is necessary for one to first "depersonalize" his targets.

We see this in CABARET, in the scenes where the emcee expresses the mores of Nazi Germany by ridiculing the Jews, making them "inhuman", and butts of jokes.

In fact, the first signal that a person is in danger of some horror by others is when others debase them and laugh at them.

Our society champions "Comedy", and worships "comedy". So it is hard to see the truth. I love comedy, too. I hope I can see when it may lead me to injustice, however, because the fact is that "comedy" really is a "tool" for injustice. It is the "rationalization" of cruel desires. At one time, forty years ago, people realized this, and there was a "stopping" point. When there isn't a "stopping" point, you've already got a system which is designed to exterminate "unworthy" humans.

Sadaam Hussein loved to laugh. Looking for the next Osama bin Laden? Don't look in the mosque. Look in the campfires where people tell jokes. Looking for a serial killer or a homicidal maniac? Look in the audiences of the comedy clubs of America.

Because this is Psychology 101. And where the film fails the test of time. Still, the other characterizations of the film are well done, and the atmosphere is great. So it still is a good film, but with a major league flaw.



Hey I got a question. How are you planning to get back down that hill?

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[deleted]

Agree with Zoetrope5 and also don't get this distinction.

So when I say that this film is "dated", I don't mean it in the context of historical dating. I do say that it is "dated" to signify popular misconceptions of the sixties and seventies, which made the film already dated by decades when it was put out.
If anything the 60's and 70's were more freewheeling comapred to the mid-eighties Reagan era movie when this was made. I have no idea whether they wanted to send a message rather than just tell a story -- but why couldn't the murderous opposition to comedy be a liberal Hollywood attack on the conservative right, particularly the Christian Holy Rollers?

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[T]he fact is that "comedy" really is a "tool" for injustice.

Comedy is just comedy. When it (or anything else) is used to perpetuate injustice, it's a "tool" of injustice. When it's used to laugh at and make fun of tyrants and oppressors, it's a "tool" of liberation.

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Lazy + smart = efficient.

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Serial killers, at least in interviews, seem grim people, overwhelmed by their inner monsters, so to speak. There is nothing comic about them. They seem to take themselves very seriously.

Persecution of hated groups is not done through comedy. Comedy is the result of people who take themselves so seriously, they must demean others. The jokes against the Jews were not so much meant to hurt the Jews (since they were told to an all-Aryan audience), but to make the people present feel superior to the Jews outside, to placate their sense of self-importance, their total lack of the capacity to laugh at themselves.

The point of the commedia was not so much laughing at others, but laughing at yourself. It's those who cannot laugh at themselves who become self-righteous and capable of committing horrors. You laugh at others when you recognize in them what you also are. The people in town laughs at the drunk, because they know at one point of another they also have been wasted and behaved like that.

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Space For Sale.

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I believe that the OP's basic assumption is in error. The murderer, Jorge, is not a psychotic serial killer, and he is not portrayed as such. He's much more complex than that. He's a fully rational man who's actions are understandable within the context of his world where blasphemy, heresy, and other religious offenses were capitol crimes. He does not kill because he has internally debased or dehumanized his victims.

Jorge is in a quandry. He respects knowledge and learning, and yet as a monk believes that he is in possession of holy revealed knowledge which must not be questioned. He does not "abhor" comedy in an absolute sense. He believes that some educated men can handle Aristotle's teachings on comedy, but that simple minded men could be led into damnation by comedy and laughter. He cannot destroy Aristotle's book because it is Aristotle's, but at the same time he cannot allow it's contents to be made public, again because it is Aristotle's.

When he determined that a knowledge with the power to damn men's souls was about to be turned lose on the world he used murder to stop it. A man acting on that motivation today might indeed be judged psychotic, but in Jorge's time I think it was well within the bounds of rationality.

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In a way, Jorge is close to John Doe in Seven. He murders for a reason, and that reason itself corrupts him. Since he is aware of such corruption, he chooses to die, and makes of his own death part of his plan.

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Space For Sale.

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I would say the concept of 'comedy' (at least in the film) boils down to knowing oneself, and those around you. If you can laugh at yourself, for example, it often signifies that you're aware of your weaknesses. If you can't laugh, it means you're in denial about something, and therefore can't deal with it on anything other than a serious level. You end up narrow-minded and closed to alternative explanations, which may or may not do the job. Closed-mindedness is what generally shapes the types of individuals we don't want to see.

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[deleted]

This post and most of the replies it got made me wonder if people had been seeing the same film i have.

Jorge de Burgos abhorred comedy because if you can laugh at something, you can doubt/question it.
And in the end, if you value comedy, there might be no stopping it, i.e. in the end you could laugh at god and the teachings of the bible, the pope, the church and so on, and thereby questioning all this.
As he said at one point in the movie: "There is no progression in knowledge" (paraphrasing here), meaning that to go deeper and question things will lead you away from the righteous path, away from heaven and into the realms of the devil.

He believes he is doing god's work by "protecting" the world, shielding it from perceiving comedy and laughter as a good, valuable thing through the writings of Aristotle.



We're hiding like elephants when they're happy.

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I saw the same film as poster janachan, what s/he said above was quite plainly stated in the exchanges between Jorge and William before the former swallowed the poisoned portions in that page of the book, then threw the book in a burning candle.

Whatever flaw/s there are in this movie, I still am quite glad to have seen this.
The performances are excellent all around, and my unfamiliarity with the many actors further enhanced my appreciation for it, the only three actors I know are Sean Connery as William, Ron Perlman as Salvatore, and F. Murray Abraham as Bernardo Gui the Inquisitor (who was brilliant and amazing as Salieri in Amadeus). And the majority of the characters looked real, unattractively so with the exception of Connery. Even the monastery is of the type that really picture one that fits the narrow-mindedness of the monks living there.

The cinematography is sharply realistic in conveying how it was in the early stage of The Dark Age, when the Church became very powerful, and became the ultimate authority in matters spiritual and material regarding the life (even death) of its followers, mostly of the poor folk, who they usually neglect and live in abject poverty, in conditions of grime and stench.
I love too the ancient sleuthing that's like Sherlock Holmes in the movie, and how books figured prominently here.

I really am grateful to have seen something quite different from what Hollywood usually dishes out.



Truth inexorably,inscrutably seeks and reveals Itself into the Light.

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