The acting in Manhunter was horrible. The actors arent believable either due to the poor acting. The Dialogue is rushed and it sounds cheesier than in red dragon. Im glad Red Dragon was made. Manhunter should be dismissed and ignored.
shareI feel Red Dragon was only made to capitalize on the success of Silence of tge Lambs and Manhunter is a far superior film. Red Dragon seemed to be just going through the motions.
shareI agree.
To me, a great cast (in Red Dragon), but completely wasted with how the finished product turned out.
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Wait a minute... who am I here?
You must be some sort of automated spam-bot. You made the same post verbatim, same title, same text, a few months ago.
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Yes, for dummies Red Dragon is better. But for most people Manhunter is the superior film
shareIn being a joke.
shareRed Dragon is what you get when a director who plies his trade in mindless trash tries his hand at making a more "serious" film with an A-cast: he falls on his face miserably. If not even a cast of Fiennes, P.S. Hoffman, Norton, and Hopkins can rescue your film, you know it's time to stick to making pop music videos and teen-audience action flicks, which are the closest thing to hack Ratner's real forte.
shareTrue. Red Dragon is the most sserious Rattner film has ever made, so far. But in this case, Manhunter vs Red Dragon, I decided to stick onto typical Hollywood genre feature. It isn't thah Mann is useless filmmaker, but I found that his approach for Manhunter to be totally crazy.
And while I, myself, just love 80s film, for overall tone, style, soundtrack, in this case I gave advantage for RD. And usually I despise modern remakes or sequels, but seem it's true when people say "there is 1st time for everything.
Manhunter seems to be a film that people either love or hate. I agree that Mann's style is a little eccentric, but that's its appeal for me. In contrast, Red Dragon was completely a paint by the numbers, generic film with no individuality or style, which is why even some of the best actors didn't bring much to the table. I also hated the fact that it was an obvious commercial effort to cash in on the Lecter franchise, i.e. turning him from a minor supporting character (as in the novel) to the centerpiece.
The only aspect of Manhunter that I can say I truly dislike is the soundtrack. While many of the songs aren't bad as such, they're noisy, intrusive, and often out of place.
You've said it. People love it or hate it. Mann has been eccentric and that's why I chose to give more credit to RD. I found it out of place, just like soundtrack you mentioned - which I have to partially agree with you on that. I love songs, but not in this movie.
shareThe only aspect of Manhunter that I can say I truly dislike is the soundtrack. While many of the songs aren't bad as such, they're noisy, intrusive, and often out of place.Noooo! The soundtrack is part of what seduced me when I first saw the film. Or rather I should say the marriage of the music with the visuals. OK I know it's not for everyone and is frequently one of the things posters object to but I assumed that you as a Manhunter fan would appreciate it.
A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.share
I think Manhunter's soundtrack is definitely dated.
That said, I still love it.
So there.
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Wait a minute... who am I here?
Of course it's dated! The original songs stretch back to 1969 and the original score is now almost 30 years old. So there.
:)
Glad you love it though.
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Noooo! The soundtrack is part of what seduced me when I first saw the film. Or rather I should say the marriage of the music with the visuals. OK I know it's not for everyone and is frequently one of the things posters object to but I assumed that you as a Manhunter fan would appreciate it.
I think "Strong as I am" during the scene where Dollarhyde is in his van outside Reba's house is well placed, too. I really don't think there is a real bad use of the soundtrack (outside the aforementioned 'Credits' song).
You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design
The much maligned Heartbeat that closes the film is of a type of music, soft rock, that I loathe as a rule. It's one of the soundtrack inclusions that I skipped when listening to the soundtrack. Its inclusion has been parodied by a poster who expected the Grahams to punch the air before the action freezes! But ... it has grown on me in terms of the scene, which is a bit sickly, but is also most optimistic. Pastel colours, tanned skins, golden sand, turtles babies that survived and made it to the sea, a bright sun in a blue sky. The song contains triumph too, a triumph fought for and won, as Graham with his newly scarred face embodies. There's a sort of perfection to it that means I accept the song without irritation.
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I agree.
I think Heartbeat is probably the track that people bitch about most when they take to complaining about the music in Manhunter, but I still don't mind it.
And most of the other music in the film, hell I think it still fits perfectly.
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The soundtrack was effective in a couple of scenes ... In many other scenes, it was as though Mann just said, "I really like this song, let's stick it someplace into the movie."What about Coelacanth during the 'tiger' scene? And This Big Hush? The original music when Dollarhyde and then Graham are moving through the Leeds' house? The original music when Graham is sleeping on the 'plane and watches Molly walk towards him?
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Agreed. What bothers me is when its called "dated". How is any soundtrack not dated?
You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design
Yeah, I see your point.
Where this film is concerned, I really just use the term 'dated' for a track like Heartbeat, which to me just screams out "HEY! - CHECK IT OUT! - IT'S THE 1980s!"
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I understand the charge of dated as making the soundtrack so identified with a period in time that it's hard to sink into the film without being reminded that the film was of the 1980's or whatever the time. But aside from the soft rock of Heartbeat and Strong as I Am I don't find any of the music dated, as in so easily identified as 1980's or, in the case of In-a-Gadda-da-Vida, the 1960's!
A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.share
[quoteWhat songs/music were you thinking were tacked on/in by Mann? [/quote]
"Heartbeat" is the most obvious one. As I said on a thread about that topic, I agree that the film needed upbeat music to fit its upbeat ending, but this one just seemed out of place.
There were other scenes where the music itself wasn't so much bad or out of place as it was needlessly loud and intrusive - such as the scene where Graham is sitting in the diner ordering coffee and says "It's you and me sport."
At first I also disliked the choice of music accompanying the scene where Graham is surveying the property of the second victim (i.e. where he climbs the tree and sees the Red Dragon symbol), i.e. they could have selected something eerier, but since then I've grown to like it more.
When Red Dragon was about to released, I read an article where someone in Hollywood complained that Manhunter was 'overscored', so maybe that would be the better word to use, I dunno.
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read an article where someone in Hollywood complained that Manhunter was 'overscored'That's interesting but I think it applies to Red Dragon rather than Manhunter! :D
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I noticed that too, Poppy. I can't really remember the score of Red Dragon, but I do remember that it was too prominent to ignore, and too blunt to do what a score is supposed to do -- namely establish mood.
The only scene that comes to mind specifically is Graham investigating the Leeds crime scene. In Manhunter it's all very brooding, melancholic synth, with that nice burst when he turns on the lights and the sight of the blood hits the viewer like a tonne of bricks; I seem to remember that Manhunter had some very shrill, overbearing "suspense" music during this scene, which completely erodes any power the scene might've had in the first place. I mean, come on -- silence would've been a lot better.
do what a score is supposed to do -- namely establish mood. Yes! Nice capture of something I've been struggling to articulate about the MH soundtrack; it's moody and emotional. i presume you meant to write "I seem to remember Red Dragon had some very shrill ..."and not MH!
I'm scared of the middle place between light and nowhereshare
Good catch! You're right, I definitely meant Red Dragon.
shareYou have my sympathy over Heartbeat. Took me a good while to accept it. Think it's worth printing the song lyrics because they seem to me perfect for Will's bond with Molly and Dollarhyde:
I can hear your heartbeat, knocking on the window,
I can felt the weight deep down below.
I can hear whispers,
Coming from the shadows,
Touch me like hot ten on my soul.
I can hear your tip toe,
I can hear the door close, anticipation in me grows.
Sometimes I,
Sometimes I,
Sometimes I, understand it very clearly.
Heartbeat, heartbeat, listen to my heartbeat [Repeat: x4]
I can hear your tip toe,
I can hear the door close, anticipation in me grows.
I can feel your dark eyes, touch me in the darkness,
Understand the message never sent.
Sometimes I,
Sometimes I,
Sometimes I, understand it very clearly.
Heartbeat, heartbeat, listen to my heartbeat [Repeat: x4]
Listen to my heartbeat. [Repeat until fade]
A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.share
I just wanted to say that I also LOVE the movie's soundtrack. It is so evocative and beautifully in step with the film's mood. I don't get at all people who say the music is off-putting or complain that it's "dated". Whatever. I think the music is effective, even haunting. I am particularly in love with "Graham's Theme".
I pretty much love everything about this movie.
Brilliant soundtrack.Top 3 for me.All of shriekbacks tracks are excellent but the one that does it for me is evaporation.I heard the director was already a fan of shriekback hence the inclusion on the album.
The track used in the graham/lektor jail cell scene by klaus schulze is also nice.
The album is definitely of its time but that doesn't distract from the fact that it's a truly great OST
...Red Dragon was completely a paint by the numbers, generic film with no individuality or style, which is why even some of the best actors didn't bring much to the table.
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Yes Ed! And while I think Red Dragon is still watchable, it has a sort of flat feel to the proceedings, as though the director has just done a routine job on what the script set out, without offering much of his own visual input or purposeful direction of his actors. It was contrived. Mann's version appears to have more meaning and sense of style to reflect the substance that was on offer. It was also scarier.
Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪
Red Dragon is what you get when a director who plies his trade in mindless trash tries his hand at making a more "serious" film with an A-cast: he falls on his face miserably. If not even a cast of Fiennes, P.S. Hoffman, Norton, and Hopkins can rescue your film, you know it's time to stick to making pop music videos and teen-audience action flicks, which are the closest thing to hack Ratner's real forte.I don't think I can even properly describe how much I agree with this.
I'm normally not a fan of remakes, nor of prequels/sequels that are just manufactured to ring in the cash register on a franchise.
However, if you're going to do a remake or a prequel, at least find somebody talented to direct it, someone who can bring in some style or individuality to the movie. Ratner isn't remotely in the same league as Jonathan Demme or Ridley Scott as a filmmaker. Having Ratner as a follow-up to Demme and Scott is like picking Rob Zombie to do a sequel or remake of Citizen Kane.
I wouldn't put the post-Blade Runner Ridley Scott in a league much higher than Ratner - and on the Rob Zombie/Citizen Kane scale, he's certainly closer to the former. His Hannibal, despite having at least some manner of visual style, sucked about as bad as Red Dragon.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
I wouldn't put the post-Blade Runner Ridley Scott in a league much higher than Ratner - and on the Rob Zombie/Citizen Kane scale, he's certainly closer to the former. His Hannibal, despite having at least some manner of visual style, sucked about as bad as Red Dragon.
Shouldn't also forget Scott's debut The Duellists, which was sort of an imitation of Barry Lyndon, but nevertheless outstandingly crafted. After 1982 though... I haven't seen anything I've liked - and stuff like Prometheus or Black Hawk Down's absolutely terrible. I actually think his brother Tony was probably a more accomplished action director.
As for these other chaps... Coppola is of course a special case of a titan that could do no wrong falling off completely. Scorsese's downfall started much later and hasn't been quite 'that' radical perhaps - I mean, mostly he at least manages to be mediocre. Friedkin on the other hand made the gleefully misanthropic and absurdly enjoyable Killer Joe a couple of years ago... and To Live And Die In L.A. was a serviceable cop flick back in 1985. As for Demme, his most interesting films actually predate Silence - Something Wild and Married To The Mob are delightfully idiosyncratic and quirky. Philadelphia's indeed a safe, sentimentalist rubbish; however, his The Manchurian Candidate remake is actually not bad; at least it manages to put a reasonably interesting spin on the original masterpiece.
Of course, there are more directors that suddenly fell from grace come the 21st century, Tarantino being the most obvious example.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
Shouldn't also forget Scott's debut The Duellists, which was sort of an imitation of Barry Lyndon, but nevertheless outstandingly crafted
As for these other chaps... Coppola is of course a special case of a titan that could do no wrong falling off completely
Friedkin on the other hand made the gleefully misanthropic and absurdly enjoyable Killer Joe a couple of years ago... and To Live And Die In L.A. was a serviceable cop flick back in 1985
Of course, there are more directors that suddenly fell from grace come the 21st century, Tarantino being the most obvious example.
If not even a cast of Fiennes, P.S. Hoffman, Norton, and Hopkins can rescue your film, you know it's time to stick to making pop music videos and teen-audience action flicks, which are the closest thing to hack Ratner's real forte.
(Don't forget sexually harassing women.)
The acting in Manhunter was horrible.
The Dialogue is rushed and it sounds cheesier than in red dragon.
Im glad Red Dragon was made. Manhunter should be dismissed and ignored.
Red Dragon was pedestrian and uninspired. Apart from Feinnes who was ok.
Norton's Graham was just a dweeb. Should have died in the first scene. There's no way that he could get into and understand the mind of a serial killer.
Emily Watson just had "victim" tatooed on her forehead. Her relationship with Dollarhyde was unbelievable so wasnt enjoyable and had not tension.
Hopkins Lecter is completely wasted in Red Dragon. He was perfect for Silence Of The Lambs just as Cox was for Red Dragon. If they had to have him in it again they should have fleshed out (forgive the pun) the part. Cox's small screen-time has you wanting more. Hopkin's small part in that makes you feel cheated out of what we saw in The Silence Of The Lambs.
Glasgow's FOREMOST authority Italics = irony. Infer the opposite please.
I think "Red Dragon" is more solid, but "Manhunter" is better in both the atmosphere and the emotional content. It's either that, or that the Neon lights and oh-so-80's synth got to me.
shareI think "Red Dragon" is more solid, but "Manhunter" is better in both the atmosphere and the emotional content. It's either that, or that the Neon lights and oh-so-80's synth got to me.
I personally prefer Red Dragon to Manhunter. I saw Manhunter first and was not majorly impressed. The direction was all over the place, the pacing was very slow and the 80s soundtrack removed all tension from the film (and I usually love 80s movies and music). I also was not impressed by some of the performances in the film (I found Petersen a bit over the top). I also did not find Brian Cox at all scary. I found the pacing better in Red Dragon and I also felt they dealt with the Dollarhyde storyline better.
I have no problem with people having a different opinion to myself, everyone is different. But I do get angry with the Manhunter fans that are rude to fans of Red Dragon and seem to think that their taste in films makes them intellectually more superior. This is not really necessary.
I love 80's movies
I have no problem with people having a different opinion to myself, everyone is different. But I do get angry with the Manhunter fans that are rude to fans of Red Dragon and seem to think that their taste in films makes them intellectually more superior. This is not really necessary.
I don't really see what a director's past films have anything to do with anything. It is the worst form of movie snobbery when people judge a director's films by past films they have worked on. In my opinion many of Mann's films are highly overrated. I enjoyed the Last of the Mohicans, but found Heat exceedingly dull. Everything is a matter of personal taste and no person's taste is more superior than anothers.
I love 80's movies
"but found Heat exceedingly dull"
Yeah, you just lost all credibility right there.
I'm assuming that means you think Red Dragon is a better film than Heat?
It seems some people just have NO taste, never mind superior taste!
Was it a millionaire who said "Imagine no possessions"?
What a childish response. So because someone does not like a film you like they have no taste. How ridiculous. I am not going to act like a sheep and say I like a film I do not like just because it is fashionable to like it, or because others will be negative about me for having this opinion. Apart from the fact that there is no such thing as credible/non credible taste, everyone is different and everyone likes different things.
I love 80's movies
Fashion has nothing to do with it. You really do have poor taste. Don't sweat it though, it's not your fault. Not everyone can have good taste.
You can certainly like whatever you want Pheeb, it's just that you have to accept your own limitations when it comes to knowing what's good or bad cinema.
Was it a millionaire who said "Imagine no possessions"?
Everything is a matter of personal taste and no person's taste is more superior than anothers.
It is the worst form of movie snobbery when people judge a director's films by past films they have worked on
How is what I wrote absurd?. If a section of the public watch a film, the opinions of every person that watched the film is equal. In terms of IMDB both Manhunter and Red Dragon have an equal rating at present at 7.2, it is therefore clear that many fans either like Red Dragon equally or more so than Manhunter. Using your argument the opinions of these thousands of users don't matter or are inferior just because they do not hold the same opinion as you.
I do not really get your argument that I was saying that all film makers are equally talented, because nowhere in any of my posts did I say that and saying that all people's opinions should be respected is also not saying that.
A film directors previous films also do not necessarily mean their current film is good. There are plenty of directors that have made great films and than have made some duds (e.g. Oliver Stone, George Lucas, Steven Spielberg has made some not so great films) and there have been directors that have made awful films, but have also made some enjoyable films (e.g Joel Schumacher has made some enjoyable films despite making Batman and Robin). Therefore I would not say it was a good argument that one film is better than another just because the director made some previous better films.
I love 80's movies
@Pheebshirl
It seems to me that you've joined this thread to pick a fight with Manhunter fans, vis your opening post. Consequently you elicit responses that seem to affirm your view and you continue having spats.
Not everyone's opinion is equal on every matter. That is an absurd belief that does away with the notion of learning and the processing events into experience; both are brought to bear in opinions. Some people's opinions have greater weight because they are informed in a way that others are not. It's as simple as that.
Also:
Everything is a matter of personal taste and no person's taste is more superior than anothersIf everything were a matter of personal taste then there would be no consensual reality. You seem to assume that personal taste has no root in the objective world and that it cannot be evaluated. I think this needs arguing in the sense of laying out how you arrive at the judgement, not by having a spat.
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I did not come on here to pick a fight with Manhunter fans. I had actually just been watching the television show Hannibal and came to both Red Dragon and Manhunter's boards. I simply posted an opinion about a film and also expressed that there is no need for Manhunter fans to be rude to/look down on Red Dragon fans (a valid opinion that in no way is asking for a fight), this was mainly as a response to some of the disrespectful responses to the OP and other posts on both the Manhunter and Red Dragon boards. I than was inundated with posters being rude and picking fights about opinions they do not share.
I also do not really see how your argument about opinions even relates to films. If we were discussing scientific discoveries or mathematical equations, this argument would be justified, but saying that some people's opinions are more informed than others in regard to film is just being insulting. I do not think that someone who does not share my taste in film is any more or less educated than me or that they have any less/more experience.
Looking at the films objectively they both have the same rating on IMDB as voted by thousands of viewers, they would therefore objectively be seen as of equal quality, therefore it is only personal opinion on what film is better.
In terms of RD fans making threads, there are equally as many Manhunter fans doing the same on RD boards, but generally a lot of the RD fans are not as rude. There is no need for rudeness whatsoever.
I love 80's movies
To me, Manhunter is the better interpretation of the Red Dragon novel.
The performances in Manhunter were top notch in general, Willian Petersen in particular. This is the best performance of his career. Red Dragon has an excellent cast, but some of the performances were some what lacking. Ed Norton (one of the best actors of his generation) gave an entirely detached performance. The result of this was that I was not drawn into Will Graham's mental anguish, as I had been with Petersen's performance. Anthony Hopkins, who gave such a chilling performance in Silence Of The Lambs (the one performance where I felt he was better than Brian Cox) is, at times, channelling Stan Laurel here.
There is a level of intensity captured in Manhunter that I felt was missing from Red Dragon. It is obvious that the movie's sole purpose for being is to complete the Anthony Hopkins Lecter movies.
You can't palm off a second-rater on me. You gotta remember I was in the pink!
Nice post MovieKnut. Emotional intensity is one of the most important features of Manhunter to me.
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Thank you PoppyTransfusion.
I have have been a fan of Manhunter since I first saw it in the late 80s. At that time I had not heard of Red Dragon or Hannibal Lecter. The result was I watched this purely as a stand a lone movie.
I found it an intense and disturbing experience and unlike any other movie of its type that I has seen at that point. The sequences where Graham is walking through a crime scene or we witness his thought process, tying the clues together are just sublime.
You can't palm off a second-rater on me. You gotta remember I was in the pink!
I also saw it as a stand alone movie (Way back in 89) before Hannibal Lecter became a household name.
I thought it was a very well made and riveting thriller. Loved all the performances and the cool music.
It was only after i realised it was based on a novel by Thomas Harris which at the time was unavailable in England. I got a copy while i was in New York and it fast became my favourite book and still is.
The scene where Graham realises that the Tooth Fairy has seen the videos of the two families is just incredible. The build up, the acting and music all come together to creater this hypnotic moment. To this day it's one of my all time favourite movie scenes. It pisses all over the same scene in Red Dragon.
Was it a millionaire who said "Imagine no possessions"?
The scene where Graham realises that the Tooth Fairy has seen the videos of the two families is just incredible.
You cannot help but be drawn in as Will Graham starts making the connections and pieces the evidence together. One of (if not the best) scenes in Manhunter.
You can't palm off a second-rater on me. You gotta remember I was in the pink!
I saw Manhunter early 90's and did not make any connection between it and Silence of the Lambs. The use of light, colour and music all drawn together by Petersen's haunted stares seduced me immediately. The film's impact was immediate and its interest and joy has increased over the years for me. My favourite scene remains the 'tiger' one; sensual, erotic, faintly sinister because of Dollarhyde's presence and beautiful as the camera contrasts Joan Allen's pink skin and rapturous expression to the sleeping beast that she caresses. Has there been another moment like this on screen with a serial killer?
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Even after countless viewings, I am still riveted to the screen when Graham is working a crime scene or the evidence. The scene on the jet near the end, when Graham figures out how the Tooth Fairy selects his victims, is spellbinding.
You can't palm off a second-rater on me. You gotta remember I was in the pink!