MovieChat Forums > Lady Jane (1986) Discussion > Jane's Mother's Claim as Queen??

Jane's Mother's Claim as Queen??


Hi -

At the beginning of the movie, when Duchess Frances Suffolk (Jane's Mom) and John Dudley (Guilford's dad) are just starting to hatch the scheme to tie their children into marriage and their own political machinations, they conceive their plot thus:

Frances: Princess Mary's mother (Katherine of Aragon, wife of Henry VIII) was divorced, and Mary was named a bastard. Next in line's Elizabeth...

John: Whose mother Anne Boleyn was beheaded for treasonable adultery - ruled out. Next in line becomes my lady - Duchess Frances Suffolk...
who would, of course, relinquish all rights and privileges in favor of her daughter, Jane.

It's a major pickle convinving Jane to agree to the marriage - in the film, she refuses, Frances whales the tar out of her and she only submits AFTER the dying King Edward comes and gently convinces her to obey her parents. It's too bad Frances couldn't have fought to be Queen herself! :)

Why is Frances giving up her chance to fight for rhe role of Queen if she's obviously so power-hungry? Is she too old, and/or would they need someone who could still bear children to secure their line?

Any thoughts/ideas are greatly appreciated?

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A child is allegedly easier to control than a grownup. Janes mother could have everything, through her daughter and none of the responsibility. Look how she scurried to Queen Mary as her husband and daughter were executed.

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Does anyone know WHY Queen Mary spared Lady Francis when she beheaded her daughter,etc.?

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Some historians speculate that she didn't want to see her childhood friend executed. Mary and Frances were close in age and were friends and playmates as children. Frances was also very fond of her aunt by marriage, Henry VIII's first wife, Katherine of Aragon (who was Mary's mother.) After Jane, and the Duke of Suffolk were killed (along with Northumberland and Guilford Dudley), presumably Mary could safely say the threat was gone and there was no need to execute Frances or her remaining two daughters. Remember, she didn't want to execute Jane either but she felt she had no choice after her father's rebellion.

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Frances Grey's claim to the throne was indeed superior to that of any of her daughters. Moreover, she had a noble husband of proven military prowess to fight for her claim.

BUT: Their Graces the Duke and Duchess of Suffolk HAD NO SONS. All their offspring were female -- the Ladies Jane, Katherine and Mary Grey. And we have ot assume that Frances was regarded as too old to have more children by the time of the events of this film (she was born in 1517 which would make her 36-37ish).

The primary function of a female sovereign was presumably to give birth to a son who could take over from her at maturity (and to be married to a suitable husband who could rule in her stead beforehand). Mind you, up to this point England had never had a female sovereign, other than the diastrous rule of Queen Maude in the twelfth century -- which led to a bloody twenty-year civil war with her cousin Stephen.

Conclusion: Jane was seen as the preferred candidate not only because she could be controlled (by her father, her father-in-law and her husband) but also because she was a healthy sixteen-year-old female likely to bear a son to succeed her.

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Wow!
Love history ( I'm a historical re-enactor) and have learned more interesting background on this period just by reading your replies here than anywhere else!--thanks to all of you!

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Also that the Duke of Northumberland wanted to rule the kingdom and needed the queen strongly tied to him. Guildford Dudley was supposed to be king and Frances Brandon had the reputation of a strong character while Jane was supposed to be milder and meeker and more easy to control.

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I thought it might be interesting to note that, according to the book "The Children of Henry VIII, by Alison Weir, Frances was indeed still fertile after the birth of her three daughters with Suffolk. After the death of the Duke of Suffolk, she remarried Adrian Stokes, her 21-year-old master of horse, and had one daughter and two sons, none of whom lived (see page 251).

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Wow!!!! I just got 3 credits in English History from reading this tread...This is great!!!! I did read a book a while ago with regard to Jane's sisters and their claim.... Very interesting, almost unbelievable, and beyond sad....

"Albania's hard to rhyme."


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The normal presumption was that if a female inherited the throne she would become Queen and if she was married then her husband would become King and they would reign jointly (as per Mary/Phillip, and William/Mary).

Elizabeth and Anne ruled in their own rights.... by 1689 the Act of Settlement sorted out a lot of the confusions and ambiguities that had been used in previous centuries to justify the line of succession.

This made concrete the principle that the monarch rules with the consent of parliament, and parliament makes the rules about who can and cannot be monarch, and their powers. In a dispute between parliament and the monarch, it is the will of the people expressed in parliament that is sovereign.

A subtlety usually lost on most British people and most foreigners too.

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There actually was no Queen Maude. Her name was Matilda, and she was Stephen's cousin. No reputable historian, though, would call her Queen. She claimed the throne and controlled parts of the country, but Stephen had the throne and was largely in control of things. He's regarded by all authorities as the King of England in this period, with Matilda being largely regarded as an attempted usurper.

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I agree. While Henry I made his nobles swear to accept Matilda as his successor after his son William died in 1120, upon Henry's death in 1135 Stephen moved more quickly than Matilda could and got the nobles and the church on his side - his brother Henry was Bishop of Winchester and a lot of the nobles were not happy with Matilda's 2nd husband Comte Geoffrey of Anjou being in power.

The only time during the next 19 years that Matilda actually held any power was in 1141 and even then she went by the title "Lady of the English," which just goes to show how resistant the country was to the idea of a Queen Regnant. Even when a compromise was reached, Stephen accepted Matilda's son Henry (II) as his successor despite the fact that Matilda was still alive.

As for Frances Brandon Grey, when her 2 brothers died, her father's title, the Duke of Suffolk, became extinct, but was recreated for Frances' husband Henry Grey rather than letting Frances inherit the title sui juris (in her own right). After Henry Grey was executed, Frances pleaded with her cousin Queen Mary to receive some of the Suffolk property to keep her and her daughter's - the property had of course been returned to the Crown as property of a traitor, and Frances has to plead for it as Henry's widow rather than Charles Brandon's daughter. Once again, the rights of males trump the rights of females.

(BTW, Henry Grey was 3rd Marquess of Dorset and a great-grandson of Elizabeth Woodville by her 1st marriage to Sir John Grey. This made Henry and Frances half-2nd cousins.)

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My understanding was that Jane's parents attempted every manipulation to match Jane with Edward as his bride (almost from her birth) but when it was determined that Edward too frail/ill and would die, the plot shifted to maneuver her into a position to take over the throne to preserve the Protestant faith.

Although the Third Act of Succession restored Mary and Elizabeth to the line of succession, the law still viewed them as illegitimate. There was very real concern that if Mary ascended to the throne, she would return the country to the Catholic faith and if they skipped over Mary (for reasons that she had been deemed a bastard), they would have to skip over Elizabeth too (based upon her mother's unpardonable acts of treason). Frances was next in line after Elizabeth but would be too old to bear another child and she herself had no ambition to reign as Queen. But her eldest daughter Jane, Edward's cousin, was of marriageable age, of Tudor lineage and would be the preferable candidate to reign as Queen (and produce the next heir to the throne) rather than risk Mary taking up the crown and then once in power, persecuting the Protestants and returning the country to the Catholic faith as she was fanatically devout.

As with most of the nobles of the age, they all jockeyed for position and power that came with being in favor with the whomever was on the throne....The Duke of Northumberland was no different, especially when you consider his power as a de facto ruler due to Edward's young age as he quite relied on the Duke when it came to major political issues. As he couldn't ascend to the throne himself and would likely be tossed out on his ear if Mary came to power, by marrying his son to Jane, he was securing his own position as one of the most powerful men of the age as he would be guaranteed to retain his position as a chief advisor and the marriage would ensure that his family line/status was elevated another notch because his son would become King Consort and rule with Jane once they became of an age old enough to reign on their own.

Jane knew that after Edward, Mary was to be the rightful heir to the throne and was not comfortable with the idea of usurping her position but this is also an age where women had no power to control their lives, royalty or not, and were subjected to the orders and whims of their parents, most especially their fathers and male relatives. Despite her protestations against being named Queen, she had no choice but to bend her will to the wishes of her family and the Duke of Northumberland and in the end, paid the ultimate price for the matter.

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All the answers are partially correct, but in truth the answer is more simple than that.

King Henry VIII in his Third Succession Act of 1544, specified that his own children and the children of his younger sister, Frances, were in line of succession. His will SPECIFICALLY omitted his younger sister Frances herself. No one at the time was sure why and Frances never disputed King Henry's omission.

If one then rejected King Henry's own children for whatever reason, this left Jane Grey. She was primarily chosen by Edward because of her religious fervor. Edward was correct in his assessment that she would never cave in to "the papists", and indeed she did not. The movie implies perhaps too strongly that the young King was cajoled into making Lady Jane next in line. The truth is that he was very determined to complete what his father started, and Lady Jane was the perfect choice. Indeed, when Bloody Mary finally did ascend the throne, and offered Lady Jane her life and that of Guilford Dudley in exchange for renunciation of her anti-papist dogma, she refused again and again and did in fact willingly die for her beliefs. Her piety was movingly reported by John Feckenham, who reluctantly had been sent by Mary to convert her to Catholicism. They became fast friends.

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As someone already stated, England had never before had a regnant queen, and the idea of it was unprecedented. Young King Edward VI, in his original will, designated the possible sons of Jane, or of her younger sisters Katherine and Mary, as his successors. It was felt that the daughters had a better chance of producing sons than their mother Frances had, although the mother was genealogically the senior heiress. (This assumption was incorrect, as someone else pointed out in this thred previously. After the execution of her husband, Frances remarried to one of her servants and had 3 more children, 2 sons and a daughter, though none survived.)

Once King Edward realized that he was terminally ill and wouldn't live for much longer, he changed his will, and listed Jane herself as first in line to succeed him, since he wasn't going to survive long enough for her to produce sons.

Queen Mary never offered to spare Jane's life if she converted to Catholicism. It was Mary's usual practise to offer those awaiting capital punishment the opportunity to see a Catholic chaplain and convert to Catholicism. It was not a reprieve from execution. She did the same thing with Guilford's father, who actually did convert to Catholicism just before his execution, though it didn't get him off the hook ( although it may be that he thought it was worth a chance). Mary apparently did plan to pardon Jane and Guildford, after their conviction of treason. She really didn't want to be seen to be executing two teenagers, who after all were victims of circumstance. But after the failed rebellion, in which Jane's father participated, she changed her mind.

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Good post except that Frances was not Henry's sister; she was his niece, the daughter of his sister Mary. (The descendants of his other sister, Margaret, were not even considered as they were Scotland's Catholic royalty.)

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Thanks :) I did realize that after I posted it. I don't know what I was thinking.

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Just a generation off!

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IMHO, she was hedging her bets. If she'd set herself up as queen and failed, HER head would be on the chopping block. This was one cold woman.

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