Vincent vs. Amos
Who'd win?
shareI honestly think that Eddie lost to Amos on purpose. He just wanted an excuse to break it off with Vincent & Carmen and pretended to be broken up about being out-hustled presented the perfect opportunity. You can totally tell that Eddie was acting when he was commiserating to himself(in front of Vincent & Carmen) about how he couldn't believe he let this happen to him.
My vote history link:http://imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=5504773
Interesting theory, but when Eddie asked repeatedly "Are you a hustler, Amos?", he seemed really pissed. I think he really was upset at losing his edge and the rejection of nursemaiding Vincent's career was natural.
shareMy grand theory is actually that Eddie was just using Vincent from the very beginning. He needed an excuse to go back on the road and get a feel of who's who and what's what since it had been so long since he had been on the road. This theory is backed up with the final scene where Vincent yells at Eddie "You USED me!!" He had to be talking about my theory. What else could Vincent be talking about? He obviously knew that Eddie was using him to make money on stake horsing so what else could Vincent be referring to? This is why I think he may have let Amos hustle him. He may have actually got caught off guard but I do not think he was as upset as he made out he was. He just figured that this would be the perfect opportunity to dump them.
My vote history link:http://imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=5504773
Well, that old black guy whom Eddie knew from the old days said, right in front of Vincent, "What, are you stake-horsing, Eddie?", so it wasn't a heck of a secret to reveal at the very end. Then there was that monologue Eddie gave Vincent in the care about "you've shown me that money won is twice as sweet as money earned... you've bled the life back into me...tell me what you want, give me a clue...", as if he were begging to keep being Vincent's mentor. It felt like once he got fed up with Vincent's endless inability to dump to build his road rep, he decided, "Screw it, I'm gonna focus on my own career," and the loss to Amos was his final wake-up call that he had to shed Vince and the girl and really practice if he were going to really get back in the game.
Your theory has strength, but Newman seemed way too emotionally involved in his effort to make Vincent a seasoned hustler to make his own involvement merely one long hustle.
Well Binkconn, you have helped me reevaluate my theory.
I think you are right. I think Eddie did start off with the intention of just stake-horsing. But once he was on the road he started to get the itch again and felt and missed hustling for himself. As you have pointed out, he got tired of Vincent not dumping when need be and losing out on money. So he has a change of heart and decides to dump them and go back to hustling. HOWEVER this begs the question:
What was Vincent talking about when he yelled "You USED me!" ? To which Eddie replies, "Yes, I did" . This statement alone makes me want to go back to my original theory.
My vote history link:http://imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=5504773
The "you USED me!" line just seems out of the blue, unless Carmen was the only one who understood what "stakehorsing" meant way back at the first skeezy poolhall and finally decided to clue Vincent in on it after Eddie returned the envelope.
Better idea: When Eddie tells Vincent "I want your best game" before their closing match, it means to Vincent he wanted to show his prowess over merely working a scam at the Finals, and playing a non-dumping Vincent was the best way for Eddie to prove himself (to himself). Kind of makes sense...
There is no way that he was so dumb to not know that Eddie was using him to make money by stakehorsing. Eddie wanted Vincent best game for just the same reason as you said, to prove to himself that he can hang. However none of this explains Vincent's "you used me" statement.
My vote history link:http://imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=5504773
Vincent understood; what he was angry about was being cut loose before the finish. As in, "You used me (and now that you reckon you're done with me you're just tossing me out like it means nothing)." He doesn't say precisely what he means (if he even knows what he means) -- he's not a very smart character (yet).
To be honest, I've never really wondered about that exchange, and I doubt Richard Price gave it much thought either (though he is a great writer). An old pool hustler befriends a younger one -- and "befriends" is important from Vincent's point of view, since he clearly has a more elevated opinion of their relationship than Eddie ("Getting a little personal here", "Last night...you really talked to me", etc.) -- and resents being treated like a commodity, which he is.
Look at the way Eddie manoeuvres Vincent into accepting his offer. It's like a game of chess to Eddie. Do people really believe Carmen was "starting to pack" when Eddie meets her? I'm not sure I do. Or maybe Eddie really is that perceptive, and is just giving Vincent some genuine fatherly advice. If not, perhaps this is specifically what Vincent meant by "used" -- manipulated.
The reason the film works so well, in my opinion, is because Vincent ends up doing a double-whammy on Eddie, starting with his angry initial response, "If you're gonna give me money, give me [more] money [that this]! 'Cause this is nickel and dime stuff."
"Don't you tell me what I'm about!" Eddie yells back, implying that he's always considered himself at-arm's-length, or even above Vincent. The suggestion that Eddie's small-time (or that he has "let Vincent in" at all) infuriates him even more than losing to Amos.
But this is just a prelude to the incredible humiliation he suffers at the tournament. He's managed to build himself back up, get back in the game, beat his unbeatable pupil...only to discover that Vincent actually was paying attention all that time, and has become as good a hustler as Eddie in his prime -- but far more ruthless than Eddie ever was.
So, when Eddie says he's prepared to "pick myself up and let you beat me again," it suggests that Vincent's not the only one who's learned from their experience together -- he's absorbed some of Vincent's vitality. His natural character will eventually triumph over Vincent (the natural character), even if it takes time.
Vincent understood; what he was angry about was being cut loose before the finish. As in, "You used me (and now that you reckon you're done with me you're just tossing me out like it means nothing)." He doesn't say precisely what he means (if he even knows what he means) -- he's not a very smart character (yet).
I'm a little confused by this statement because you say he isn't a very smart character yet but the "You used me" statement comes at the end of the film where Vincent has proven that he now knows how the game is played.
Look at the way Eddie manoeuvres Vincent into accepting his offer. It's like a game of chess to Eddie. Do people really believe Carmen was "starting to pack" when Eddie meets her?
I do not believe Carmen was "ready to pack" as Eddie put it. He just wanted to give Vincent a little shove in the right direction when he saw he was having a little trouble convincing him to go on the road. I honestly think Eddie was giving genuine advice and was not trying to manipulate Vince in this regard. He was honestly trying to teach him how to get the most out of his talent as Vincent was having issues keeping his pride in check.
...only to discover that Vincent actually was paying attention all that time, and has become as good a hustler as Eddie in his prime -- but far more ruthless than Eddie ever was.
I believe Eddie breaking it off with him was the key to Vincent coming on to his own. The break off was the push from the nest so to speak that the young pupil needed to really get his hustle game on.
I like your insight on the story but I do not believe it explains the "you used me" comment convincingly. Getting Vincent to go on the road with a few pushes here and there with some white lies wouldn't constitute that type of statement. You have to remember that Eddie had been out of the game for over 20 years now. He had no idea who was who and where were the places to go. This fact is evident when he takes them to a warehouse full of clothes thinking it was a hot spot to hustle.
Great response! Love to hear other people's insights on a story.
My vote history link:http://imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=5504773 share
[deleted]
There was nothing contrived about Eddie losing to Amos- it wasn't to find an excuse to push Vincent away and send him off on his own.
I believe Eddie got caught slippin' with Amos however he turned that event into an opportunity to dump Vincent and Carmen.
My vote history link:http://imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=5504773 share
[deleted]
by movie_nazi on Mon May 31 2010 00:33:40
I honestly think that Eddie lost to Amos on purpose. He just wanted an excuse to break it off with Vincent & Carmen and pretended to be broken up about being out-hustled presented the perfect opportunity. You can totally tell that Eddie was acting when he was commiserating to himself(in front of Vincent & Carmen) about how he couldn't believe he let this happen to him.
I strongly disagree. There is no plausible reason why he would want to 'break it off' with Vince and Carmen. If there is one fill me in.
It is very clear that Amos is hustling Eddie from the get go. You can clearly see that he uses a simple vocabulary and talks about mundane things near the beginning of their match. This contributes the the oaf persona he creates to dupe people into thinking he is a dumb ATM. Eddie is truly pissed off when he starts to lose-can you not see that? That is why he keeps losing just as he did to Fats in the hustler. He let himself get beaten just like in the past. After a while he just relented and played like trash to fulfill the history repeating itself.
share
I strongly disagree. There is no plausible reason why he would want to 'break it off' with Vince and Carmen. If there is one fill me in.
The main reason being that he was having a hard time getting Vince to do what he needed him to do. He may have started off honestly trying to teach him the art of hustlin' and make a few bucks stake horsing but when he realize it was a losing proposition he decided to stick with them long enough to spy out the scenery so he could get back into the game for himself. Noticed that after he broke it off with them he went back to the same exact pool halls and knew who to play and for what. This is what Vince was referring to at the end of the film when he exclaims "You USED me!" meaning he used Vince as a decoy while he spied out the land.
The incident with Amos presented a perfect opportunity to break it off with them. I mean does it really make sense that Eddie was so distraught with what happen to him that he just couldn't bare to go on with Vince and Carmen but then he turns around and starts hustlin' for himself? The "You USED me!" line is the biggest piece of evidence to support this theory. If this isn't what Vince meant when he says this then what was he referring to? Eddie making money by stake horsing? Surely not. If Vince wasn't bright enough to figure out that the reason Eddie stake horsed him was to make money surely Carmen was.
Although I will buy that Eddie was caught off his guard and perhaps did in fact get hustled by Amos I don't buy the fact that he was so broken up over it that he decided to quit the venture. He figured hell, this is a good time to make my break. I might as well put on the act that this really hurt me. By Vince's reaction I don't think he even bought it.
My vote history link:http://imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=5504773
share
The main reason being that he was having a hard time getting Vince to do what he needed him to do. He may have started off honestly trying to teach him the art of hustlin' and make a few bucks stake horsing but when he realize it was a losing proposition he decided to stick with them long enough to spy out the scenery so he could get back into the game for himself. Noticed that after he broke it off with them he went back to the same exact pool halls and knew who to play and for what. This is what Vince was referring to at the end of the film when he exclaims "You USED me!" meaning he used Vince as a decoy while he spied out the land.
The incident with Amos presented a perfect opportunity to break it off with them. I mean does it really make sense that Eddie was so distraught with what happen to him that he just couldn't bare to go on with Vince and Carmen but then he turns around and starts hustlin' for himself? The "You USED me!" line is the biggest piece of evidence to support this theory. If this isn't what Vince meant when he says this then what was he referring to? Eddie making money by stake horsing? Surely not. If Vince wasn't bright enough to figure out that the reason Eddie stake horsed him was to make money surely Carmen was.
Although I will buy that Eddie was caught off his guard and perhaps did in fact get hustled by Amos I don't buy the fact that he was so broken up over it that he decided to quit the venture. He figured hell, this is a good time to make my break. I might as well put on the act that this really hurt me. By Vince's reaction I don't think he even bought it.
You make a very good argument and it is making me rethink my perspective in this. However, I really think that the reason Eddie went back to all those pool halls and cleaned up was more to prove to himself he could do it and less about the money.
Either way the reality is that your explanation makes a lot of sense. Perhaps Vince feeling USED by Eddie is the reason he USES Eddie and dumps the match. Telling Eddie about it after the fact makes Eddie feel like a prop in the process - a vindication for Vince? share
I think you're right, Eddie was dumping to get rid of Vince. What Eddie lost to Amos was chump change, but enough to make an impression on Vince. The only point in the movie where Eddie wasn't in total control was when Vince dumped at the tournament, that's why Eddie forfeited.
The only thing about the whole movie I really had to stretch to believe was that it took Eddie 25 years to get back in the game, sure Bert Gordon was a scary guy but the threat he made wouldn't have a twenty five year lifespan.
The only thing about the whole movie I really had to stretch to believe was that it took Eddie 25 years to get back in the game, sure Bert Gordon was a scary guy but the threat he made wouldn't have a twenty five year lifespan.
Perhaps not 25 but 10 or 15 years perhaps. After that amount of time passed Eddie's hunger for the game may have waned. He got comfortable selling liquor and keeping out of trouble and when meeting Vincent the "hunger" came back. He even mentions it to Vincent in the man to man talk he has in the car with him where he states the famous line Money won is twice as sweet as money earned .
My Vote history: http://www.imdb.com/user/ur1914996/ratings share
I give Bert Gordon's threat about five years, after that it would just be petty. Remember the scene where Fast Eddie describes to Sarah what great pool is, I don't think a fever like that ever breaks.
share