Massive plot hole between Alien and Aliens?? - Aliens (1986) Discussion

[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

One theory is that in the original movie, a person (or persons) were acting outside the knowledge of the company ( a bit like Burke does in this movie). Some one who held a position that could at the very least arrange certain things like placing Ash on board the Nostromo without raising any red flags.
When the Nostromo was 'lost' in space without any records of what happened, this unknown person or persons likely kept quiet about the whole thing and either couldn't risk sending another mission there without raising some one higher up being alerted to it, or something happened to them like dying in an accident or something.
The long standing plan to acquire a specimen comes from the sequels beyond Aliens, or the 'prequels' (including the AVP movies here) which is why people tend to wonder why nobody went looking in the 57 years since the Nostromo went there.

If those pen pushers up at city hall don't like it,well, they swivel on this middle digit!

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

That does make sense

But still. The company who send the colonists there are the SAME company who sent the Nostromo mission (even if it was secret elements in that company).

That means that Weyland Yutani had secret elements within its ranks who secretly set up a mission to retrieve an Alien species. That mission failed. Everyone associated with it forgot about it. Then by PURE COINCIDENCE that exact same company innocently colonized the very same planet which had the species on it only secret people from the past knew about. They let that colony live happily for years and years. Then out of the blue the survivor from the initial mission all those years ago resurfaces and tells Weyland Yutani about the creature. This then prompts them to secretly try and get the creature again, all the while never knowing that 57 years ago other people from their company secretly tried to do the same.

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[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

Again, the theory is that LV426 was used as an advert for the companys terraforming capabilities and that maybe the person or persons involved in the Nostromo mission may have had some influence in choosing LV426. But seeing as the 'distress' beacon was no longer working and there were no exact co-ordinates, the surveying team who checked it out didn't stumble across the derelict (as maybe hoped) and the colony was then set up as planned for terraforming.
20 years later along comes Ripley and said person or persons have now retired and there is no official record of the derelict or anything regarding a life form on LV426.
Again, just theory.

If those pen pushers up at city hall don't like it,well, they swivel on this middle digit!

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

Quite plausible, but of course there are alternative explanations that don't require a conspiracy at all.

Due to the events of Prometheus, it's certainly possible that W-Y did know at least something about the mutation powers of the goo, what their spacecraft looked like, but unless Vickers' lifeboat was sending full telemetry with video back to Earth (unlikely), they wouldn't know about the xeno that popped out of the Engineer at the end.

If anything, they would have probably lost telemetry once Prometheus pulled a kamikaze move on the Engineer ship so between then and Shaw's final broadcast, they had nothing. They would have images of xenos on the wall of the the shrine, but they hadn't seen one.

That's even assuming that Prometheus was streaming telemetry and data back to Earth at all.

They could have simply gone missing after having reported that they set down safely.

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A number of years later, the FTL tugboat Nostromo (whose course carries it near different systems at different times) receives a distress call.

We can all agree on that part, but where it breaks down is that some assume that Nostromo was intentionally rerouted to pass through that region of space so that it _could_ intercept the beacon, thus justifying an official reason to investigate (just following ICC regulations after all).

Do we ever see anything, even small, that would suggest that Nostromo had been rerouted _before_ it intercepted the beacon? We know that once the beacon was intercepted, mom changed course to intercept, woke up the crew, etc - but we don't see any direct clear evidence that it was rerouted before then, is there?

If nobody can explain that, it's hard for me to buy all of these conspiracy things.

What we can assert is that mom would have a lot of programs stored in her that were triggered in specific events. Events such as "remember that thing we were told about years ago, yeah we just found one" may trigger a program like we saw "GET IT, screw the pesky crew if needed, but GET IT!".

A response like that doesn't require direct interaction from Earth, simply a high priority program on their mainframe/AI. We didn't see any evidence for FTL comms in Alien, yet we clearly did in Aliens - so hard to assert if they existed either way in Alien.

Such a quandry... yet as you can see, based on observed facts, IMO there isn't an absolute need for there to have been a conspiracy, so I'm wondering why folks are so convinced there was one. Thoughts?

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[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

The only 'evidence' we have that the Nostromo was rerouted to pick up the signal which automatically then requires the crew to investigate is logic. By that I mean if a ship didn't need to be rerouted to pick up the signal, then surely the first ship to do so wouldn't have been the Nostromo seeing as it was on its' way back to Earth from what seems to be an outpost (Thedus) that has a mine of sorts which had to be established before tugs like the Nostromo began to haul fossil fuels back to Earth.
Not saying there is a need to have a conspiracy for the story to work, but I feel there is enough to suggest that somebody in the company maybe did know. The sequels decided to follow that route, rightly or wrongly. As far as the first movie is concerned though, there is no need for such a conspiracy.

If those pen pushers up at city hall don't like it,well, they swivel on this middle digit!

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

I just don't necessarily buy the fact that "since Nostromo did pick up the signal it must have been rerouted". Space is big.

If they had a scout ship discover the beacon, why reroute a slow tugboat (hauling a very valuable payload) to investigate when you could do it with something smaller and therefore easier to make disappear if needed.

I guess for me, until I see something say they were rerouted _before_ they picked up the signal, I'd prefer to keep it at "they were flying and detected a signal" since there's nothing else in that first film that I've seen that implies anything other than accidental discovery.

People point to Ash as some smoking gun, but like Bishop later on said, his model was always a bit flaky - plus although he wasn't hard conditioned with the Three Laws like Bishop was, there had to have been at least some form of crew preservation directives built in to his personality. Being given a "crew expendible" order could have done more or less the same thing as happened to HAL-9000 in 2001 - conflicting orders made him go nuts.

Either way, fun discussion. :D

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[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

True

If those pen pushers up at city hall don't like it,well, they swivel on this middle digit!

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[–] CGSailor 9 years ago

I just don't necessarily buy the fact that "since Nostromo did pick up the signal it must have been rerouted". Space is big.

Except for the fact that when Lambert was trying to figure out where the hell they were, they were way off their planned route and out of the shipping lanes...
Other than that... sure.
/sarc

Nostromo was rerouted deliberately in order to pick up the beacon in the first place. If it was close enough to be picked up without being rerouted, then any myriad number of other ships along the route could have picked it up.

Your logic fails.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

Except for the fact that when Lambert was trying to figure out where the hell they were, they were way off their planned route and out of the shipping lanes

When they were awakened by mom.

She could have been in the shipping lane when she detected the signal, rerouted to the system where the signal was coming from, then wake the crew months later when they had almost arrived. They don't have enough surplus life support to wake them up to tell them they were being rerouted - they were woken once they got there. Then they were told they had been rerouted.

You're looking WAY too much into her words. Of course she isn't sure where the hell mom brought them, but that doesn't in any legitimate way give us any reason to assert that there was any deliberate reroute.

The evidence for that simply is not there in her words. That's why I asked for any actual tangible fact - misreading a character's words who was confused upon awakening far from where they expected to be just doesn't warrant a hard assertion.

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[–] CGSailor 9 years ago

There is even less evidence of your suggestion.
Mother isn't a sentient AI.

YOU are reading far into a situation in order to support a pre-concieved idea.

You don't want conspiracy angles... but your idea that it was the Company, rather than some individual acting on their own then covering his tracks when it all goes sideways IS the conspiracy.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

There is even less evidence of your suggestion.
Mother isn't a sentient AI.

I'm simply going by what we actually see.

The point is the folks asserting that there is a massive conspiracy from the beginning of Alien are only doing so after having seen Aliens. They're trying to see things that we are not actually shown.

It was never stated how intelligent mom was, however the simple event handling required to respond to "found a signal, required by ICC law to investigate... rerouting" sort of stuff is the kind of crap they were doing on the reliable old Apollo Guidance Computer.

It is NOT something that requires some AI to run the ship. I understand that may not be your field so that may not be so clear to you, but the automated behaviors involved in the scenario I presented (and we were not presented anything reliable to assert otherwise) is really trivial stuff.

Sure, it needs to plot out a course in space - but when it comes down to it, that still is just calling a subroutine. Then sending some commands to hardware to drop out of FTL, run some diagnostics - perhaps that take several days, reorient the ship, a few more to bring up the power and engage FTL again.

Remember, once the crew was asleep, they were at the mercy of mom - her programming was far from that of a video game console, even if she wasn't sentient.

YOU are reading far into a situation in order to support a pre-concieved idea.

How is that logic supposed to even work man?

You're telling me that my assertion that we don't see concrete evidence for an intentional course correction (prior to encountering the beacon) is somehow failing to see the clear evidence supporting that case, when indeed your entire case rests upon hard assertions involving the likely misinterpreted dialogue of a confused person still groggy from hypersleep?

I would never flame you, but that really is not how logic works.

Just because Lambert said they were off the shipping lanes NOW doesn't imply that they were also off the shipping lanes when they detected the beacon. Mom was busy while they were sleeping.

You don't want conspiracy angles... but your idea that it was the Company, rather than some individual acting on their own then covering his tracks when it all goes sideways IS the conspiracy.

Don't put words into my mouth.

I believe in possibilities of conspiracy, however I won't pretend there was one unless I can be shown actual evidence of such.

I really don't believe the burden of proof has been reached in any way.

That's why I was asking folks if they had seen something on one of the monitors that I've not noticed in countless viewings. It's obvious that Lambert is annoyed to not be almost at home, and when she's spouting out, it's not a lot different than you would have done in your boat days when you were told shore leave was delayed for a few more weeks. She went more or less "WTF, we're way off the shipping lanes".

She never said anything along the lines of "we somehow rerouted back a few months ago, then detected a beacon a week ago". It may be convenient to remember it that way for the conspiracy theory, but it simply isn't what she said.

Do keep in mind that space is big, but that radio signals (and potentially however FTL signals could work) are affected by line of sight. Even if W-Y had a freighter going by that region of space once every few months for decades, with the beacon chirping away strongly a few light years away from their closest approach, they may take years before they happen to notice it.

The Derelict was on the surface of LV-426 - who knows if the angle of the hull affected broadcast power or direction, but even if that's not the case it's generally going to broadcast "up and out" from the spot on the surface - so whatever point in space is above it could get clear reception.

But since LV-426 orbits a gas giant, you also need to keep the orbit of LV-426 _around_ the gas giant, as well as around the star(s) in the system in mind.

The signal able to reach the shipping lanes would regularly be blocked by the gas giant.

That's not even adding in the wrinkle if LV-426 was tidally locked to the gas giant.

The simple fact is, people like to assert that "since it was near a shipping lane, somebody else would have detected it before Nostromo". But you really can't do that. The signal would be intermittent, and possibly easy to not notice especially if your shipping schedule and the orbits happened to be closely timed.

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There could be a conspiracy, but it's really also very possible that Nostromo simply happened to be the first ship to detect the beacon. Mom's automated programs then kicked in and she went there.

That's all the film actually shows us, unless you can find something else besides Lambert's mumbling.

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[–] tarigergo76 9 years ago

The plothole is even bigger if Alien Isolation is canon. Weyland-Yutani bought a whole space station from a rival company because there was an alien hive on it, there must have been more then one person who knew about it.

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[–] assgravy 9 years ago

I think everyone in this thread needs to rewatch both movies, director's cuts especially.

Alien: Nostromo is redirected to LV426 after picking up distress beacon due to company protocol. Ash then feeds back all the information regarding the new life form and the fact it's a xenomorph and potential weapon. Crew is deemed expendable and Alien to be brought back at all costs.

Aliens; Weyland Yutani colonise LV426 knowing full well what the Alien species will do to them. More hosts = More aliens. The director's cut clearly shows Newt's parents going out on yet another fruitless grid searching expedition until the Alien ship is found.

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

The director's cut clearly shows Newt's parents going out on yet another fruitless grid searching expedition until the Alien ship is found.

Not quite. The DC shows (between a number of scenes throughout the film) the fact that Carter Burke took the coordinates Ripley gave at her deposition and ordered the colony to go investigate them.

He didn't warn them that there would likely be severe danger if they found anything, nor of the specific rumored behavior, info, etc.

He didn't even tell his bosses at Weyland-Yutani, since he wanted to make sure that he could keep it under his own control as much as possible. Remember, for him it was all about the points. He wanted to get rich(er) and rise in the Company.

There was nothing to suggest anybody besides him was in the know in any way. Even the guys in Bioweapons may know the rumors from the Prometheus mission days, but they likely would have no idea that Nostromo actually found one.

Conspiracy people make me smile. There surely could have been one, but we don't see evidence for it, so why assume there was one?

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[–] assgravy 9 years ago

the facehuggers already in jars suggest that even Hadley's hope could have been part of the Alien retrieval mission.

Why would a colony require such a well stocked bio lab?

You could argue that the additional facehuggers came from another investigatory expedition after newts parents arrive back. but i'd like to think her dad's chest would have long popped before they got those back. meaning the colony would have been *beep* up pretty quick.

I still think there's good evidence that the colony was put there for more than just 'building better worlds'

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

Why would a colony require such a well stocked bio lab?

Well, that's sort of asking like why a hospital would keep extra gear around.

They're on a remote colony world. They would be resupplied perhaps a few times a year, so they would have spares for all sorts of things you don't expect to need a spare for.

One does not simply plant a colony and then wait multiple decades before you tell them to go do their real mission.

They really didn't seem to know the ship was there until Ripley told the inquest and Burke ordered the colony to "go explore these coordinates for anything unusual".

You could argue that the additional facehuggers came from another investigatory expedition after newts parents arrive back.

No need to argue it, it's rather likely based on the other infected patient records that Ripley/Bishop were reviewing that the colony had sent out another mission to take another peek inside the derelict - and got more people infected. One of the non-canon comics (Newt's Tale?) talked about it, although that's unofficial of course.

And yes, Newt's dad probably would have "given birth" well before that expedition got back. That xeno would have caused a lot of carnage by itself if it got out of the medical bay or wherever Russ was being kept when it blew.

One of the xenos matured into a queen, and started laying eggs. Infestation couldn't be stopped at that point.

We don't know the specifics, but it surely would have sucked to be in the colony when that went down. :D

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[–] Starcraft_rules 9 years ago

You're overreaching. Nowhere in the first movie is it told that Nostromo is on some secret mission. You can only assume that the on-board computer (and company plants like Ash and Burke) has a protocol that priorities bringing alien life forms for study over the lives of crew members. Which explains why they didn't know what happened to Nostromo for 30 years.

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

I disagree

It seems patently obvious to the viewer that the Nostromo's mission has been deliberately changed for the purpose of retrieving the Alien.

1./ When they woken up they haven't actually received a distress signal. It's a warning which is misinterpreted as a distress signal. The Nostromo would not have had to answer to a warning message. Ash also dissuades Ripley from attempting to tell the three what the message really is

2./ Ash was selected as the Science Officer a tiny amount of time before the mission was sent. This is no coincidence, he was planted on the Nostromo to make sure the ship picked up the signal and investigated the planet. They probably didn't trust a human with being able to so coldly go forward with the plan no matter what.

3./ Ash also explains to Parker and the crew that there is a payout for them if they investigate the signal. When the three are investigating the planet Ash can visibly be seen trying to pump himself up and get ready because he knows this is why he's on the ship.

4./ The fact that the 'secret' primary objective of the Nostromo is revealed to Ripley pretty much confirms everything. Their finding the signal was NO ACCIDENT. The company also likely knew of the potential dangers of such a mission hence the order 'crew expendable.' Ash deliberately distances himself from everything going on when the Alien is rampaging through the ship, he's happy to just watch everyone die.

Bottom line the Nostromo was on a secret mission, and it was ordered by the company. Therefore there is a narrative problem between the first two films.

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[–] CGSailor 9 years ago

./ Ash also explains to Parker and the crew that there is a payout for them if they investigate the signal.

Incorrect.

Ash was warning them there was a FORFEITURE of all pay if they refused, not a payout if they did.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] Kojiro_Vance 9 years ago

Therefore there is a narrative problem between the first two films.

These things happen all the time in movies when a sequel is made by a completely different team, years after the original was made. Especially science fiction films.

The way I see it, the two explanations work: the Company is NOT the bad guy, and no one knew about the Alien (or the signal) in the first place (or maybe they just knew about the signal, but that's about it), and the events that happend in the first movie just are a coincidence (because of company protocol). Or two: one or more persons knew about the Alien.

1.
Nostromo pics up a signal. And the computer automatically changes the course (we don't know the range of the signal). When close to the signal, the computer wakes the crew. The computer is programmed to do that, and it's stated that any communication (that could mean intelligent life) should be investigated. This all happened automatically.

For all we know, there isn't any other life in the universe than Earth discovered up to that point, so finding another life form could be a huge discovery. And all ships/computers/robots are programmed to check out all things that could indicate life.

When it turns out that Ash is a goddamn robot, Ripley says that Ash is protecting it from the beginning (true), and that the Company must have wanted the Alien for the weapons division (speculation).

But maybe Ash/mother are just programmed to do that: priority 1: bring back life form, all other priorities rescinded. Crew expendable.

Seems cold and harsh, but maybe Mother and Ash were just programmed by a computer nerd, or a scientist : if you find any life form, bring it back to Earth. All other priorities rescinded. Period. Who knew that the life form they'd pick up was a hostile creature?

Or maybe even no one even programmed the 'crew expandable', and that's just Mother's interpretation of 'all other priorities rescinded'.

Computers following their orders literally.

And Ash replacing the other Science Officer could have just been a coincidence in the first place. Or they wanted to test their new robot, see how it interacted with a human crew, ...

2.
Someone in the Company knew. Changed the human science officer with an insider (Ash), and reprogrammed Mother.

Aliens: maybe the Company are indeed greedy SOB's (it's the 80's after all), but it's never been stated they are murderers. Burke probably acted alone, to sell it and make a lot of money, without the Company knowing.

The Company being murderers = Alien 3 and Alien R.

I'm just on my way up to Clavius.

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

Nice analysis, and I agree - especially in scenario 1.

People used to the sequels are forgetting the bare film before there were any.

The concept that were was some evil conspiracy just wouldn't have entered peoples' minds, they would of course know the Company had some order for exotic life forms, but why would they assume it was that life form in particular that the order applied to - sequel taint. :D

They were into the erotic Giger visuals and the Gothic horror sort of themes to that audience.

They hadn't been tainted by the sequels into seeing it with a light that Ridley Scott would not have wanted you to watch it with. He didn't make the sequels - he made that original "sci-fi/horror" film - and that's what it was considered at the time, whereas now I'd just call it sci-fi.

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

You can only assume that the on-board computer (and company plants like Ash and Burke) has a protocol that priorities bringing alien life forms for study over the lives of crew members. Which explains why they didn't know what happened to Nostromo for 30 years.

Ditto on this - maybe a lot of folks here don't do code, so it's a great mystery, but the types of software that likely would exist on a "sleeper ship" will need to have a variety of contingency plans in mind.

It doesn't need to be some magically intelligent computer - a cluster of redundant servers (modern ones) would be more than up to the task of running the ship.

Obviously specialized software would need to be designed for all of the normal automation of ship systems, but it wouldn't be any different in concept than a modern enterprise patch management application.

Instead of interacting with employee users (requesting/approving software installs) and the various PCs/hardware on the network (pushing required/scheduled/requested patches as well as doing hardware and software scans), it is talking to the various ship systems and keeping them all running happily.

It's different hardware, but the same general idea applies. I'm dumbing it down significantly to make the concept easier to understand, but it is a model that applies to a lot of systems where there is a controller that oversees a bunch of individual systems, sends commands to them as needed, takes actions based on unusual conditions or loss of connection.

Mom would regularly be sending out status requests to the various systems on the ship, and they would respond back. If they detected an unusual condition, they could send a message to the controller before it would make its normal status check.

Talking to the FTL drive isn't much different than talking to a USB device. Mom sends commands to some controller attached to the FTL gear that has control of the hardware and has special software that knows how to actually spin up the drive, engage, control speed and direction, etc. Mom sends relatively simple commands that the controller turns into whatever actions are required to make the hardware work.

Same idea goes for all of the ship systems.

If we're talking wetware/AI/exotic, some of the implementation may differ in "how mom was written" but he control of the ship is likely to stay more or less the same.

Here's a hypothetical that could explain the beacon discovery:

Mom is flying herself/Nostromo home from Thedus? to Earth, towing the refinery barge.

Since it's a long way, there's lots of crap in space - solar systems, black holes, debris fields, gas clouds, etc - so you need to make the flight in a series of hops and not in one shot.

They seem to have "normal" FTL (like Star Trek), not some kind of hyperspace drive (Stargate) and definitely not jumpdrive (Battlestar Galactica) or jump gates (Babylon 5); so you're running the FTL drive for a while then you drop out and need to scan around you to make sure your next hop is clear (star charts in some regions of space may not be as accurate as in others, plus things are drifting in different directions) and run any diagnostics/maintenance required before engaging the FTL for the next hop.

Repeat until you're at your destination.

The crew is hypersleeping.

Mom has been programmed to respond to a variety of scenarios, and even the Captain may not have clearance to be aware of some of them hiding in there. Most of them are designed to follow ICC law, protect the crew and then protect the ship and cargo in that order, but a few are exotic. Such as what happens when any all new exotic species is discovered. A crew expendable order doesn't mean to kill the crew, but it does mean that if they die... oops! Obviously a lot of ethical discussions need to be had around the nature of such automated behavior, and hopefully W-Y had most of them, but since it's a REALLY big corporation maybe not.

If mom is about to make a mid-course correction, it's because the navigation program raised an event handler because the ship was nearing the end of the current hop.

That handler routine raises a whole series of other events and/or issues commands to the FTL drive to disengage and do whatever is needed to spool it down (if needed). Then you may need to issue some commands to the reactor(s), run some diagnostics, etc. Then to tell the navigation program/computer to take some scans with whatever instruments it has and determine exact course of the next hop. Then to command the thrusters to aim the ship (if needed). And then finally to engage the FTL again.

During this process, the ship stays within the "shipping lanes" which are areas _more_ clear of dangerous debris, etc.

So the key point is that the ship would periodically be dropping out of warp for a few minutes.

If we're talking radio beacon here for the derelict distress/warning signal, and not some fancy ansible deal, it's likely that a ship could only detect radio signals when it was dropped out of FTL.

If mom happened to drop out of FTL a little bit closer to the system containing LV-426 than average, and the orbits of LV-426 and the gas giant it orbits were at the right alignment for the signal to beaming in the direction Nostromo was floating at while the navigation computer was computing the next hop, one of the programs in the medium range comms system would recognize that a signal was present. It would be analyzed using pre-programmed algorithms for the most part. Once it met the general pattern for distress signal, that comms controller sends a message to mom telling her what it found.

That raises more events that run subroutines to process them. Even something as abstract of "check to see if we have some requirement under ICC law to respond" would be programmed in or taught to the computer (depending on architecture/paradigm).

Mom being told "found distress beacon" would result in a "compute possible intercept course". Then it would be checked to make sure that this course was viable given fuel, life support, crew distress (if you make them sleep way longer than normal), etc. Since it clearly was within parameters, mom then set the course. Possibly just coasted in, or more likely did some small FTL hops to get in range sooner.

Either way, mom was just running software, and the crew remained hypersleeping.

When Lambert later wakes up and realizes they've left the main shipping lanes, that doesn't mean they're way the hell out of them - they may only be a few light years out of the nearest one, but since she was expecting to wake up much closer to Earth, she got pissed.

Obviously if mom was an AI, some of this works quite a bit different, but she seemed to be a pretty standard server with good English text recognition at the console Dallas, etc used.

Sure, there could have been some conspiracy but I really haven't seen anything to suggest it in any way. Ridley was telling us a story about Ripley and the monster, not some evil company. They bitched and whined about the company, but who doesn't from time to time? :D

When they landed and Kane got himself hugged, and Ash did some scans - well guess what. Another event was raised and one of mom's hidden programs started running. One that had top priority over anything besides those things needed to get a viable sample back in the first place. That program could have been sleeping there the whole time, or it could have been added with a major overhaul at some point. Either way, nothing magic at all about software that does this sort of stuff even now, so we are allowed to give them the benefit of the doubt of matching or greatly exceeding it. They do have FTL and fusion reactors after all.

Some of the other programs of last resort are around the "crew got killed, what to do now?" ones that would direct the autopilot to go to the nearest known W-Y shipyard or base and then send status report to whoever can successfully handshake telling them what happened and doing ship's log dump, etc.

Oh what fun their game computers would be in that era. :D

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[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

The problem I have with all of this (and you are correct in what you say) is that although maybe most on here may not understand coding, did the writers? You see if they didn't either then your theory is incorrect and the whole crew expendable and special order 937 then come back to being (maybe) the whole thing was a set up by person or persons unknown, and maybe that is the story writers intent.
My thoughts (though possibly coloured by the sequels) on the matter were mainly formed by the novelisation based on the final shooting script. In that there is no doubt that the company (or person/s unknown) knew it was a warning and the creature was hostile. Ash even goes further in to detail about the discovery of the signal and special order 937.
Now it can be argued that since it isn't in the movie then it doesn't count, so I'm not arguing that it does, just saying that's why I believe it WAS the company or someone within as that was the intent of the writers.

If those pen pushers up at city hall don't like it,well, they swivel on this middle digit!

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

"the whole crew expendable and special order 937 then come back to being (maybe) the whole thing was a set up by person or persons unknown, and maybe that is the story writers intent."

I really don't see how anyone can honestly watch Alien and come away thinking that the discovery of the warning signal and the finding of the Alien species is simply a random event. From a narrative perspective I actually quite like the idea that it was simply an aberration that the Nostromo found itself it that situation. However, it's heavily implied that this was all planned throughout the film's events and eventually confirmed for the audience.

When people say there might have been a directive for the Nostromo to investigate any possibility of Alien life hence the order Ash's behaviour disproves that notion completely.

Ash clearly knows quite a bit about the Alien they have discovered.

1./ He tries to dissuade Dallas from removing the facehugger, and suggests that it is 'feeding him oxygen.' He obviously knows that this is a process of impregnation.

2./ Ash is the first to notice what is happening to Brett during the birth scene, and also knows that the Alien is vulnerable when first born he demands that Parker doesn't try to touch it because he's afraid it could be killed.

3./ When he is killed Ash talks about the Alien as if he knows quite a bit about the creature. He describes it as the 'perfect organism' and that they 'can't kill it.' Clearly they knew something about what 'type' of creature they were going to be discovering on the planet.

Who in the company knew about the conspiracy, how many people were involved etc all that is speculation. However Ash was 100percent put on the Nostromo to make sure the crew were deceived into thinking the warning was a distress call and that the creature would be returned to Earth.

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[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

Agree with most of what you propose. As for you don't see how people can view it any differently, obviously they do hence such debates.
That's the fun though isn't it?

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[–] Kojiro_Vance 9 years ago

To be honest, to me, the whole thing being a coincidence is even more scary.

No evil company, no greedy a$$hole, no human connection. Just the computer interpreting the order the wrong way.

And the computers were maybe programmed with good intentions (discovery of any alien life form is priority number one!), and it backfired.

Tonight, I'm gonna see Alien again, and in the back of my mind i'm gonna keep thinking: it's all a coincidence. See how it turns out, and see if I have overlooked something. 

I'm just on my way up to Clavius.

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[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

Nice way to have a rewatch

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

let us know how it turns out.

Pretend you're watching it in the theater - you hadn't even seen any trailers and your buddy dragged you along.

Is there really anything to suggest some evil conspiracy going on in that film, or simply computers being too literal and/or having malfunctions when conflicting orders were involved?

It'll be interesting to see your take.

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[–] Kojiro_Vance 9 years ago

And we're back!

It worked out, the whole thing being a coincidence. However, with Ash's strange behavior in mind, the sequel Aliens, and the whole re-routing, it's probably not a coincidence.

But from now on, to me, the 2 explanations can work.

I'm just on my way up to Clavius.

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

^^

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

Well obviously I get 'how' you could potentially construe them finding the ship by accident, but I can't see how you could think the audience was meant to infer that from the script.

The thing that I find interesting is how Ash was supposed to handle potential problem situations on the ship similar to Burke in Aliens.

What if Kane hadn't given birth when he did?

How was he supposed to safely get home if all the other crew members were dead?

How was the Nostromo going to be received if it was arriving back at Earth with a live Xenomorph on board?

Also I do conceded that Ash never actually says he's on a secret mission, he never speaks about the company and we don't get his explanation when he says 'there is an explanation for this you know...'

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[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

Not sure why you replied to me with that one?

If those pen pushers up at city hall don't like it,well, they swivel on this middle digit!

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

although maybe most on here may not understand coding, did the writers?

Dan O'Bannon? Absolutely without a doubt.

He was enough of a geek that he was considered for computer animation for Star Wars (before they decided to go the model route). Back then animators knew how to code.

My thoughts (though possibly coloured by the sequels) on the matter were mainly formed by the novelisation based on the final shooting script

More than possibly colored by the novelization. :D

As we all know, those are written by some hack, and even the director often has no final approval on what they churn out.

We can only go by what the film actually presents to us, and there really is nothing in Alien whatsoever to suggest a conspiracy.

I'd love to be proven wrong by somebody noticing some text on a monitor or something, but I don't believe in "popular" ideas, I believe what I can show with actual facts.

I'm surprised how low the burden of proof is around here.

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[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

I did not know that. Thanks for the share

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

"I'd love to be proven wrong by somebody noticing some text on a monitor or something, but I don't believe in "popular" ideas, I believe what I can show with actual facts"

If you don't believe in any conspiracy in the first Alien film then how do you possibly explain Ash's words and actions? Without Ash on board everything would have been different, he is the subtle driving force behind much of the events which take place.

I honestly think James Cameron wanted a big time gap between the first tow films, and therefore this problem in understanding the events between the two films exists. It was such a good 'idea' having Marines go into the destroyed Colony to rescue survivors whilst secretly being sent there as cannon fodder for the retrieval of the Alien. It invokes all of those themes of; corruption, government misuse of the military etc

Ultimately though he just avoided the whole question of what happened to the company's interest in the Alien over the past 57 years.

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[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

Again, not sure why you replied to me with that one?

If those pen pushers up at city hall don't like it,well, they swivel on this middle digit!

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

The re-watch is a good idea

BTW Are you a Prometheus fan or not?

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[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

I don't mind it as a movie. I just don't think it's a goof ALIEN movie if you get my meaning

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

If you don't believe in any conspiracy in the first Alien film then how do you possibly explain Ash's words and actions?

I don't believe we've seen any evidence of conspiracy, which is a lot different than what you just asserted btw.

Ash has already been discussed in this very thread.

Ash's words and actions are no different than how mom was programmed. Obviously a skinjob is potentially much more advanced than the mainframe on a ship, however putting any computer in a situation with conflicting orders (protect crew vs follow high priority order) can make "problems" appear.

HAL-9000 went insane in 2001 when he was given conflicting orders... Ash could be the same exact deal.

People are putting way too much suspicion on him based on Dallas' comments about the timing of his transfer.

Those individual elements could be part of a greater conspiracy, but there is nothing I have seen binding them together other than speculation and biased perspective after having read the non-canon novelization and seeing the sequels (written by completely different people).

Ultimately though he just avoided the whole question of what happened to the company's interest in the Alien over the past 57 years.

Sorry, but that entire statement requires an assumption that the Company actually knew that Nostromo had even rerouted in the first place.

We have absolutely nothing asserting in Alien that they did, so how can you be serious to say something so definitive?

The fact is, even if they knew the results of the Prometheus expedition, they may have had no idea what happened to Nostromo, or the fact that it found EGGS and lots of them.

If they had, are you really seriously trying to convince anybody that they would park a colony a few hours drive away and then do absolutely nothing for decades? Are you really trying to tell us that this is a realistic scenario?

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

"If they had, are you really seriously trying to convince anybody that they would park a colony a few hours drive away and then do absolutely nothing for decades? Are you really trying to tell us that this is a realistic scenario?"

Well this for me is the problem. The first film contained elements of a conspiracy with the Nostromo's mission being manipulated. Cameron also wanted a conspiracy theme with his film of Burke being there for clandestine reasons with the Marines. Maybe Burke going along was 'punishment' for his botching the colonists visit to the ship resulting in dozens of deaths? Or Maybe Burke was being heavily paid by private criminal elements within the company hence his lack of protection?

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

You need to lay off the glue, because you're not describing the same movie the rest of us have seen.

Not flaming, but the words you typed in this post (and most of your previous ones too) are absolutely wrong.

Maybe it's been years since you watched it, or maybe you only saw it once and were at a party - either way, wrong.

You're really swinging and missing a lot here.

The first film contained elements of a conspiracy with the Nostromo's mission being manipulated.

How can you assert that so strongly?

This whole thread is debating that very point, and not a single person has actually brought ANYTHING that actually does imply or prove a conspiracy. Not a single one.

There's lots of speculation, based on sequels and putting too much weight on interpretations of speech - but NOTHING solid from Alien itself.

Maybe Burke going along was 'punishment' for his botching the colonists visit to the ship resulting in dozens of deaths?

They very clearly explained that Burke kept the coordinates from Ripley's inquest, then waited a while (while she was going through psych evals and working on the loading dock), then send the command to the colony telling them the location.

We see absolutely nothing to infer in any way that any of his bosses were in the loop. Sure, they had that same location as Burke did from the inquest, but they didn't believe Ripley due to the existence of the colony there.

Burke did it on his own so he'd be the one to rise in the company and get rich.

Or Maybe Burke was being heavily paid by private criminal elements within the company hence his lack of protection?

Or maybe we should just avoid the brown acid... it makes us confused and spout out all sorts of crap that doesn't make ANY sense, like that last sentence there.

Not trying to be a dick, but don't come to a great discussion and spew out such utter nonsense. I understand you're the OP, but that's no excuse. :D

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

"This whole thread is debating that very point, and not a single person has actually brought ANYTHING that actually does imply or prove a conspiracy. Not a single one"

You HONESTLY mean to say that Ash's actions, desperation to make sure the Alien gets on board and monologue before his death does not even IMPLY that there was a conspiracy. Let's drop proof for now, but I don't think you even know what the word imply means. He might not know all of the reasons why he's been entrusted with this order, but he clearly has been.

(A cyborg is suspiciously placed on board a mining ship shortly before its next mission, that cyborg does everything within its power to make sure that the crew discover the planet, visit the ship and bring back an alien life form. That same cyborg proceeds to do nothing to help his crewmates whom the Alien is killing, it is revealed to the audience that the Nostromo has a secret objective to bring back that life form and the crew is expendable. The cyborg malfunctions but before death expresses admiration for this 'perfect organism'. While the surviving crew members express their anger at 'that damn company' arguing that they probably 'wanted it for the weapons division.')

It was INTENDED for the audience to see a conspiracy in the first film. It wasn't proven, there are alternate interpretations. However to say that NOTHING even implies a conspiracy is flat out ridiculous.

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

You HONESTLY mean to say that Ash's actions, desperation to make sure the Alien gets on board and monologue before his death does not even IMPLY that there was a conspiracy

Of course it doesn't.

Not even a little *beep* bit.

He's showing desperation to follow his goddamned orders. You need to read some Isaac Asimov before you resume talking out of your ass. O'Bannon no doubt based some of the ideas of Ash's responses to what he had read in those books.

When you understand that this was a goddamned standalone sci-fi/horror film, it goes a long way too.

It was INTENDED for the audience to see a conspiracy in the first film.

Says who? Says you??? Your logic is almost as bad as Luke's - none of these assertions you've been making are at all accurate.

One cannot simply demand that we believe your pet theory because you really want it to be true. We believe FACTS. And you haven't actually demonstrated any.

Indeed, your ranting and raving (and apparent glue sniffing) makes anything you say automatically suspect.

However to say that NOTHING even implies a conspiracy is flat out ridiculous.

You don't get what these words mean... as there's nothing that implies a conspiracy in any way. Not even a tiny little bit.

What we have are several things that crew members are uncomfortable with - which could fit a pattern of conspiracy.

However since all of your "glue" has been sniffed instead of being used to bind these snippets into a realistic whole, you don't have anything that actually has ANY legitimate weight behind it. Seriously, some of the best and the brightest on IMDB have commented in this thread, and they had nothing that could conclusively tie a conspiracy up; your ranting is hardly as persuasive as their at least well thought out scenarios.

While the surviving crew members express their anger at 'that damn company' arguing that they probably 'wanted it for the weapons division.')

The fact that mom and the skinjob had a latent program to retrieve "new things" with a high priority was NOTHING that proves a conspiracy... indeed if anything it DISPROVES a conspiracy. We're most likely seeing malfunctioning computers, not MUHAHAHA EVIL PLAN IN MOTION MUHAHAHA. Asimov hit on that very frequently. So did that one movie 2001 - O'Bannon read a lot of Asimov and was a huge fan of 2001.

Instead of seeing the obvious influences for that scenario, you run around seeing something completely different and telling us we're wrong for actually knowing what the writers were using as an influence.

Take off the tin foil hat and enjoy the film as it was when it came out in the theaters. Don't pretend there's some evil conspiracy out there.

Belief in a "popular idea" is silly, when there really is nothing in that film, that a viewer when it first came out to the theater would have seen in the same way. Your sequel viewing has completely tainted you.

W-Y wasn't the "evil company" until the lazy writers for 3 and 4 made it so. Seriously.

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

I've read Isaac Asimov

You do know the character of Ash, with the same motivations and actions, was originally written as a human don't you?

They decided to go with a robot because they felt it added more depth and darkness to the film.

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

I've read Isaac Asimov

You do realize the character of Ash was originally a human? With the same script presence, same actions and same motivations. Turning him into a cyborg added depth and darkness to the story.

And again the idea that the Nostromo simply has orders under all circumstances to retrieve Alien life doesn't explain how Ash knows so much about the creature they pick up. 'You still don't know what you're dealing with do you? The perfect organism.' He didn't pick up that information just by observing the Alien being born and then killing Brett and Dallas. He knew the nature of the creature they were going to bring aboard.

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[–] chouse1020 9 years ago

Turning him into a cyborg added depth and darkness to the story.

Not so much, it was moreso meant to be a shock to the audience once they revealed what was up. Keep in mind they had no idea he was a skinjob until he got his head bashed off.

He knew the nature of the creature they were going to bring aboard.

Even if that was the case, it would once again, if anything, tell us that there were rumors from the Prometheus mission about the critters. Something from the description on the radio of a thing attached to Kane's face could have triggered a program that Ash wasn't even aware was running.

Of course, since this was a standalone film we can't make that assumption - we can only reflect that Ash is saying all of this stuff based on his own observations of the creature's amazingly exotic biology. Do remember that he didn't start waxing eloquently about their perfection until AFTER he had been scanning it and examining the dead hugger, and seeing the adult xeno's amazing stealth.

There's nothing in there that asserts that the Nostromo was rerouted _before_ picking up the signal though.

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[–] CigarDoug 9 years ago

A cyborg is suspiciously placed on board a mining ship...

Ash was an android. A robot is a mechanical creature. Robots on an assembly line don't look human at all, but some robots have a vaguely human appearance (two arms, two legs, a head). Gort was a robot.

An android is a mechanical creature made to appear human (Data was an android), in most cases as human as possible to the point of being indistinguishable from humans, even with a medical exam. The Skinjobs from BSG are an example, which stretch credibility since Boomer can stick a CABLE INTO HER ARM and talk to the computer.

A cyborg is a human with cybernetic implants (Steve Austin).

Ash... was an android.

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[–] HerBrain-i8 9 years ago

I don't really have a theory or anything but there is a small item relating to this topic which I have always found interesting.

If you access a part of the extra features on the PROMETHEUS dvd, you will find a video of Dr. Shaw making her pitch to Wayland on wanting to be included on the PROMETHEUS trip. You can then read Wayland's notes and opinions on what he thinks of her.

In those notes, he makes a brief statement about what ("He", "They") discovered on LV426 and that he is not going to tell Dr. Shaw about it. Wayland does not say when or WHAT was discovered. However, one point is clear.

It was already known something was on LV426 in 2089 before the PROMETHEUS left and the NOSTROMO did not arrive at LV426 until 2122, 33 years later.

Guess she didn't like the cornbread either.

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[–] bpjtuition 9 years ago

"There's nothing in there that asserts that the Nostromo was rerouted _before_ picking up the signal though."

Just because Alien was intended as a stand alone film doesn't mean they didn't want wider conspiracy elements within the plot. In the making of Alien Ridley Scott talks in depth about the character Ash and how he added the whole 'corporate' element to the story.

Audiences watching the scene between Ash and Ripley when the secret order is revealed and the confrontation between Ripley Parker and Ash when they switch him back on were definitely going to come away with the notion that this crew were screwed over by a higher power who wanted the Alien.

With a script as good as Alien for all we know they had potential sequel ideas floating around before the film was even released.

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[–] CGSailor 9 years ago

In those notes, he makes a brief statement about what ("He", "They") discovered on LV426 and that he is not going to tell Dr. Shaw about it. Wayland does not say when or WHAT was discovered. However, one point is clear.

It was already known something was on LV426 in 2089 before the PROMETHEUS left and the NOSTROMO did not arrive at LV426 until 2122, 33 years later.

The planet in Prometheus is NOT LV426.

they were talking about LV223

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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[–] HerBrain-i8 9 years ago

Sigh,....Yes I know, The Prometheus went to and all events in the movie happen on LV223. The crew did not have a clue or know that LV426 existed.

THAT'S why, as I explained,.... I find interesting that Weyland would state that something was found on LV426 33 years before the events in ALIEN.... and that Ridley would take time to include that bit of info in the background story of the PROMETHEUS movie world.

Guess she didn't like the cornbread either.

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[–] hawkychico-1 8 years ago

The simplest explanation is maybe they have sent other ships to get the life form and there was never a survivor. All crews were destroyed, ships missing, or destroyed. That's why maybe they established the colony. Hoping that they could get at least one Alien, Face Hugger, or egg trapped? Ripley was a threat when they found her to expose what happened but she also knew where and details of the Alien in person. They hoped to use her knowledge and get rid of her at the same time or use her as a Host as Burke wanted. My guess is she the only survivor that had encountered the Alien up until that point.

I also have more complex theories but this is the simplest..

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] Alondro 8 years ago

Actually, if anyone would care to think a little more logically, then "Aliens" has a flaw that's rather obvious: nobody noticed the gigantic derelict space ship on any planetary surveys which would assuredly be done before colonizing LV-426.

Given how accurate and detailed our mapping techniques with probes such as Voyager by the 1980's movie-makers were certainly aware that humans would have even BETTER technology by the time period of the movie and it'd be almost impossible NOT to find such a significant alien object. Thus this omission is either a plot hole OR the Company DID see the ship and covered it up.

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[–] ErgonomicSpliff 8 years ago

Thus this omission is either a plot hole OR the Company DID see the ship and covered it up.

WY knew it was there. WY also knew the signal was there prior to the events of "Alien." The fact that Order 937 even existed at all is proof of this. Ash was placed on Nostromo two days prior to the craft leaving Thedus. The only thing we don't know is if the original Science/Medical officer was also an android. That scenario is unlikely, though, considering Dallas' explanation of how Ash came to be on board. Ash was there to ensure the retrieval of the "lifeform" that the Company already knew about.

37 years after the events of "Alien," a terraforming colony was established on LV-426 by the Company. They didn't forget that the derelict was there. We don't know, based on what we are shown in the films, if there were 37 years' worth of attempts to retrieve a specimen from the derelict before the colony was established. I would think that there was more than just the one attempt, but that's only supposition on my part.

The Bio-Weapons division knew about everything. The folks who debriefed with Ripley in "Aliens" either did not know, or they were in collusion with the Company to blackball Ripley. It doesn't really matter though.

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[–] hawkychico-1 8 years ago

I am not sure if who here has played Alien: Isolation:

In case you haven't or don't play games then here is a run down. It's an amazing game.

There is also the same plot in the plots of Weyland trying to protect the alien 15 years after the Nostromo. I'll keep names and plot to the minimum. A ship recovered the Nostromo flight recorder that was near by LV-426. They of course went there and of course someone got impregnated but they also turned off the beacon. They brought the woman with a facehugger back to a space station called Svestopol that was owned by Seegson. Amanda Ripley works for Weyland and is informed they found the flight recorder and is sent on a mission to get it. Seegson already wasn't doing so well and was already decommisioning the space station. The chest burster and Alien happened and the whole place went to hell. Seegson put it up for sale was was going to hide what was happening. Weyland, of course, bought the space station. Their main objective was to protect the Alien. They also give orders to make all Androids on station glitch to kill people.

I know it's another canon but so is Aliens. They have a history, if you go by cannons, of trying to get the alien. They are obsessed because it is an ultimate weapon and has been impossible to get because of how dangerous it is. My question is, who does Weyland-Yutani want to use the weapon against or sell the weapon to?

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[–] foxhound-37781 8 years ago

To me it makes perfect sense....

Weyland Yutani clearly know where this planet is and since they failed to get their hands on the alien in the first film so they got too impatient over the course of the 30 years upped the ante and said "screw it lets put an entire colony of people on there" and since Terraforming basically requires exploration it would have only been a matter of time before they stumbled across the aliens which actually happens in the special edition we see Newts father end up with a facehugger over his head

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