MovieChat Forums > Edge of Darkness (1986) Discussion > Intelligibility of UK dialog?

Intelligibility of UK dialog?


I just read about Gibson doing a remake of this series as a film. I came over and read up on the acclaimed original series. I was intrigued enough to go over and find that it's for sale on Amazon on DVD.

Don't know if the series ever ran on US TV, I've only had access to BBC America for a short while. I never saw it but know that British TV mysteries, thrillers and SF are always superior to anything original or remade for the dumbed-down US market. [Once in a while we can do a comparable job on comedies, SEE: "The Office", but that's another story.]

Anyway, I wanted to buy the DVDs. My only hesitation is that I often have a problem understanding British accents. (I know I'm not the only one.) It is a big frustration with shows where there are clues involved.

So I'm asking the US viewers of the series, did you have problems understanding significant amounts of the dialog?

Thanks.

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I think all of them, bar Joe Don Baker who's from Texas, speaks Queen's English - ie very clear English, no strange accents.

There are English subtitles if there's something you don't catch.

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The 'Queen's English' covers all dialects and accents - any form of the language which is deemed correct. You are referring to Received Pronunciation, where the language is spoken properly with no slurring, elisions etc.

There are two forms (not counting Jedburgh's Texan accent): RP and English with a Yorkshire accent. However the latter are toned down somewhat and nobody with a pair of functioning ears should have any comprehension problems.

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"You are referring to Received Pronunciation, where the language is spoken properly with no slurring, elisions etc"

That's a very biased claim. RP, for example, drops the "r" sound in words such as "farmer", which it pronounces as "fahmah", with no "r" in sight. It also elongates certain vowels to ridiculous proportions.

It is a dialect like any other. Just with more prestige.

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I am talking about British English. To make that comment you must be American, because only Americans retain (some would say add) that 'r' sound, and it's the same with an 'l'. We pronounce the word 'calm' as in 'karm' and Americans make a point of pronouncing it so it sounds like 'karlm'. Some of these differences are due to the American retention of older forms of English, but there are other well-known differences between General American and British English. Some time you should look up 'yod-dropping' and that might explain a few things for you.

I don't want to get into an argument about the English language because such arguments are, in my experience, always unproductive on this board. Suffice it to say that as the question refers to 'UK' dialogue that's what I was replying to. I do, however, take issue with your absurd and arrogant statement "It also elongates certain vowels to ridiculous proportions."

Ridiculous? In whose view? What qualifications do you have to justify such a statement? Give me an example.

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" To make that comment you must be American, because only Americans retain (some would say add) that 'r' sound, and it's the same with an 'l'. "

Actually, I'm Scottish. RP speakers drop their "r"s, it's a non-rhotic accent. Of course, we're not allowed to say that, as it is the "Mandarin" accent are we?

Thank God RP's dying a death. Unfortunately Estuary English is taking its place, and that's not the prettiest English accent either. The Yorkshire accents in Edge of Darkness are easier on my ear... even if they are watered down.

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No argument there. Even though I was brought up in East Anglia with a mother who was heavily into RP I much prefer many of the regional accents.

I'd rather any of them than Estuary English. Or this pseudo-Caribbean nonsense our be-hoodied yoof is copying from their black contemporaries, most of whom have never set foot on Jamaican or other Caribbean soil.

Or the ghastly Estuary-Mockney nonsense so beloved of poseurs like Guy Ritchie.

Sorry I misidentified you earlier. I realised when I had a brief look at some of your earlier postings that you were not a Merkin, so decided you must be Canadian. Many Scots went to Canada, as you know.

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I'd rather any of them than Estuary English. Or this pseudo-Caribbean nonsense our be-hoodied yoof is copying from their black contemporaries, most of whom have never set foot on Jamaican or other Caribbean soil.

Or the ghastly Estuary-Mockney nonsense so beloved of poseurs like Guy Ritchie.
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I agree with all this! These accents are embarassing, but they seem to be taking over England and Wales. They haven't made much headway here, although, there is something called Jockney, which is caused by watching too much Eastenders! I visit Norfolk quite often, and I've never understood why the accent is so funny to Londoners - I actually prefer it to theirs!

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I grew up in Suffolk, and to me that and the Norfolk accents are much more agreeable.

I'd never heard of Jockney; I hope I am never obliged to listen to it.

I'm not that keen on Glasgie, but Highland Scots, like (Southern) Irish, is a very pleasant accent. It's curious how big cities corrupt accents.

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"We pronounce the word 'calm' as in 'karm' and Americans make a point of pronouncing it so it sounds like 'karlm'."

Do we indeed. Well I pronounce 'calm' as 'kam' because (as anyone knows) the 'L' is silent. Where the 'r' sound is supposed to come from I'd like to know?

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This is why phonetic guides were introduced. Think of it as calm as in karma, and your version as calm as in cam(shaft).

Does that help?

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Excuse me, but neither of you two know what you're talking about. The 'American' accent is descended almost directly to the modern era from the Tudor-Stuart accent prevalent in the late 16th- to early 17th C. era when the first two of the Original 13 Colonies were founded. The language, isolated as it was, from the mother tongue, became 'frozen' in time. It gifts modern English speakers with the closest window they will ever have into the sound of the language as it was spoken by the likes of Elizabeth I, Shakespeare, Ben Jonson, Francis Bacon, et. al.
The most significant modification to this paradigm came from the huge Scots-Irish influx into the trans-Appalachian--Ohio Valley or 'old Midwest'-- region between the time of the Jacobite Rebellions to the Irish Potato Famine era (roughly 1700-1850) and which coincided with American westward expansion. Thus, the so-called 'Midwest' American Accent, which has the flattest and most discrete intonation of vowel sounds, is the modern descendent of that English/Scots-Irish blending. If one listens to Irish English, one can immediately hear from whence Midwest Americans get their vowel pronunciation (and to some degree, their syllable stress and cadence).
Not surprisingly, then, Irish actors prove to have the best Midwest American accents onscreen; and, the crème de la crème of these is, in my opinion, Brendan Gleeson. His is flawless and very natural. One would NEVER know he wasn't a native born American. Close and phenomenal runners-up from amongst English Brits would be Bob Hoskins and Jason Isaacs. Granted, these two have not produced a pure Midwest accent, but rather, the 'Brooklyn/Bronx' and the 'Boston' working-class accents, respectively. Of those able to produce an oexcellent 'Generic Southern' accent is the current star of The Walking Dead, Andrew Lincoln. Of costar David Morrissey, not so much. English actors tend to 'get away with' a semblance of an American accent if they're able to disguise their vowel pronunciations in various regional dialects.
British English began its drift away from Canadian/American English around lthe 1730s under the rule of the Hanoverian German Georges, whose earliest monarchs never cared enough about their English subjects to learn the language properly. Indeed, George I never bothered to learn English at all, nor even to go occupy his new English throne, preferring instead, to remain in his cold and dreary northern Germany. Go figure. The second George was little better. He ferried back and forth between Hanover and London and spoke English with a heavy 'Cherman' accent his entire life. While George 3 was the first to be born and raised in England, he and his family spoke German at home amongst themselves. Thus the 'King's English' began to become bastardised with European vowel pronunciations introduced, ironically, by the royal family, itself!
The 'Midwest Accent' then (which our Canadian brethren share with us) is the standard one which is taught to everyone entering the broadcasting trade and to those foreign students wishing to learn 'American' English. And for your information, no one I've ever spoken to pronounces 'calm' with an R. Even in Boston, the word is pronounced 'caahm' which a broad A sound close to the A in apple, and with a lightly aspirated H.

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit...it's the only way to be sure..."

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Excuse me, but neither of you two know what you're talking about. The 'American' accent is descended almost directly to the modern era from the Tudor-Stuart accent prevalent in the late 16th- to early 17th C. era when the first two of the Original 13 Colonies were founded. The language, isolated as it was, from the mother tongue, became 'frozen' in time.


Ironically you don't know what you are talking about. You are correct to say that the language split (although it was later, think more 1700s due to the constant migration and the biggest migration from the British Isles). North American English does feature some archaic features found only in some English dialects (such as rhotic-rs) but also features many deviations (more than retentions) from older varieties of English such as featuring the cot-caught merger in most dialects, the merry-mary-merry merger in almost all dialects, The flapping of intervocalic /t/ and /d/ to [Éľ] in words such as "butter", "litter" and bottle, the dropping of the "y" sound in words such as "duke" and "tune" making them DOOK and TOON... and many more features.
Though it was seperate from UK English this doesn't mean it didn't evolve and didn't become influenced by other languages. In fact Us English has been greatly influenced by "foreign" languages after that time than British English has been. The influence of German and Spanish is especially strong.

If one listens to Irish English, one can immediately hear from whence Midwest Americans get their vowel pronunciation (and to some degree, their syllable stress and cadence).


Actually the lower Midwest gets them more from English and German and the Upper Midwest from Scandinavian (Norwegian especially) and German. I presume you are talking about the Upper Midwest which sounds the most "Irish" due to some similarities between Scandinavian and Gaelic pronunciation.

Appalachian English is more descended from Northern English (Scots-Irish is a misnomer due to SOME settlers being from the Ulster plantations... most weren't as evidenced by the many place-names; Cumberland Gap, Northumberland County etc). DO YOUR RESEARCH!

British English began its drift away from Canadian/American English around lthe 1730s under the rule of the Hanoverian German Georges, whose earliest monarchs never cared enough about their English subjects to learn the language properly. Indeed, George I never bothered to learn English at all, nor even to go occupy his new English throne, preferring instead, to remain in his cold and dreary northern Germany.


Northern Germany being no colder or drearier (it has warmer summers for one thing) than the majority of Britain.
George I was an elderly man when he took the throne so it isn't surprising that he didn't know English.

The second George was little better. He ferried back and forth between Hanover and London and spoke English with a heavy 'Cherman' accent his entire life. While George 3 was the first to be born and raised in England, he and his family spoke German at home amongst themselves. Thus the 'King's English' began to become bastardised with European vowel pronunciations introduced, ironically, by the royal family, itself!


Wrong! George III's household spoke English as (despite his father's lack of English skills) he was raised as a native English speaker and would have had an upper-class southern English accent. I am an anti-Monarchist but I at least try to be truthful.


The 'Midwest Accent' then (which our Canadian brethren share with us) is the standard one which is taught to everyone entering the broadcasting trade and to those foreign students wishing to learn 'American' English. And for your information, no one I've ever spoken to pronounces 'calm' with an R. Even in Boston, the word is pronounced 'caahm' which a broad A sound close to the A in apple, and with a lightly aspirated H.


He was writing how we would describe the "A" in Southern English and RP in the words "calm", "castle", "bath" which we would depict as "carm", "carcel", "barth" (I being Northern don't pronounce them like this however) being that we are (mostly) non-rhotic and thus don't think an "r" is pronounced the way an American would pronounce it (try not to be ignorant). If you actually read what he wrote he was saying North Americans pronounce the "l" in "calm" which is true for some dialects which do pronounce it more as "cal'm" even though standard American English has it as "cahm".


"The game's afoot!"

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This is why phonetic guides were introduced. Think of it as calm as in karma, and your version as calm as in cam(shaft).

Does that help?


Calm is pronounced 'call-m'.

Karma is pronounced 'Car-muh'.


This is General American (TV English) in which there are few accents. Words are spoken like they are spelled with little accent (words like dawn and Don are pronounced the same).

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I'd agree, Jedburgh is the only one who I ever had difficulty understanding because of his Texan drawl, all the others speak RP, even with a Yorkshire accent!

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it's true that you do a comparable job on comedies but i would say SEE seinfeld, because THE OFFICE is a remake of a british show. :)

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I think the OP knew that, as they mentioned shows that were "original or remade for the US market"

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I first watched it about 20 years ago. It is unforgettable. No problem with dialog.

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So far as I know, it never ran on US network TV, but it did run at least once in the 90's on public TV's KTEH, in San Jose, California.

I first saw it on British TV in 1985, when I was there on a business trip. I never had any problem with the accents, but I do watch a lot of British TV and films.

Be warned though, the DVD currently being sold through Amazon.com is a Region 2, PAL format. What that means is it probably won't play on your home DVD player, but may work okay on your PC.

But there are reports that a USA version will be released early March, 2009.

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" So I'm asking the US viewers of the series, did you have problems understanding significant amounts of the dialog?"

I suppose you were one of the people that got Mad Max redubbed into American. The rest of the world has to understand your programmes, with often obscure cultural and political references, so why don't you return the favour?

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You should see some of the people they subtitle on many American TV shows. They subtitle people with the most minor of accents... Think of what Arnold Vosloo sounds like in his Hollywood films. I've seen American TV shows where South Africans with accents like his get subtitled. I've even seen American people with a lisp get subtitled

"The rest of the world has to understand your programmes, with often obscure cultural and political references, so why don't you return the favour?"

I always do, personally. I have to say, it baffles me how popular certain shows are overseas in the UK and the rest of Europe... Stuff like The Simpsons, or Family Guy, which has tons of references that are pretty obscure even to Americans.

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I've found that the "R" in a British word broadens the "A" sound, most famously in "ARSE." To American ears, it sounds like "AHSS," and we wonder what the "R" is doing in the word. Sometimes we pronounce the "R," not knowing its silent function. The cute little biblical donkey-like, long-suffering, much-maligned animal, the "ASS," is pronounced with a short "A."

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Here in Australia, no problems at all with British English. I have just finished watching EOD having last seen it when it was originally televised here in '85.

I did notice the irony of Joe Don Baker's character Darius Jedburgh's Texan accent beefed up a bit with the subtlety of a sledge-hammer cracking a walnut, while the various regional accents such as Bob Peck's Yorkshire accent toned down to an almost neutral level presumably to make the series accessible to a broader spectrum of English speaker, be they British, US, Canadian or Australian etc.

On the UK DVD edition for both Regions 2 & 4, switchable sub-titles (English SDH) are available which would assist if you couldn't grasp the dialogue clearly enough.

On a final note, EOD has to be one of the finest drama series to come out of the BBC. Superb in all repects including a fabulous soundtrack by Eric Clapton and Michael Kamen.

Rule Britannia! (Well BBC anyway :)

Cheers

et tu Brute!

Locked my wire coat-hanger in the car - good thing that I always carry spare keys in my pocket :)

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"I did notice the irony of Joe Don Baker's character Darius Jedburgh's Texan accent beefed up a bit with the subtlety of a sledge-hammer cracking a walnut"

It is turned into something of a joke.

As Harcourt says, "There's no need to play the Texan, Jedburgh, we can take it as read." (Episode 2, I think)

The golf thing is a cute twist. Although it's never stated directly, I suspect Jedburgh is quite proud of his Scottish roots.

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made me laugh when his Scottish landlady kept pronouncing his name to rhyme with "Edinburgh"

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To address the OP's question, I'm American but found the program no problem at all to enjoy and understand.

I saw it on YouToob and the sound was not even that good. No subtitles available either.

It's pretty clear and understandable. Not a lot of British slang words, either, which can be incomprehensible if somebody doesn't how know how they translate.

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Given that several American actors have a prominent roles in this serial, accents should not be an issue.

Its that man again!!

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Good to see this thread got back on track after all of the attempts to hijack it.



Ya Kirk-loving Spocksucker!

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