MovieChat Forums > Year of the Dragon (1985) Discussion > Practically invites hyperbolic criticism...

Practically invites hyperbolic criticism -



I love "Year of the Dragon" almost against my better judgment. There is so much wrong with the film it makes a unilateral praising ridiculous....but the film itself is just SO ridiculous, SO over-the-top, SO outrageously *extreme* in everything it does it's really hard to ignore it. And, by God, it actually does succeed in spite of itself!

This was Cimino's last dare-we-say *great* film.

"There is no inner peace. There is only nervousness and death." - Fran Lebowitz

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I very much like The Sicilian, but I agree. There are ultimately two things wrong with this film 1) In today's PC society, its difficult to accept a film from a white director taking a harsh look at problems within a minority community... and there ultimately will be a limit to the insights an outsider can have. 2) Cimino ultimately identifies to strongly with Stanley White, despite also being quite aware of him as a racist and obsessive character (and its hard not to read autobiographical underpinnings here, post-Heaven's Gate).

But it's a magnificently well-put-together film, with real ideas and guts... more than it knows what to do with it, but ideas and guts nonetheless. Ultimately, it's greatest asset is its greatest fault: it is a film that tries to go to the "extreme" in dealing with its subject matter (assimilation, Vietnam, corruption, chasing obsessions), and you can make a good argument that it fails. But in doing so, it goes farther and deeper into that territory than a safe Hollywood film ever would. Better to stumble at going for broke than settle for mediocrity.

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@bst -

I'm curious about your feelings on "The Sicilian" - I gave it the old college try and turned it off after 10-15 minutes, it was so awful. I watched it again and made it through....can't say I *liked* the film but still have my copy on hand - will inevitably give it another go one of these days, as I'm a big champion of Cimino and would like to believe there's a fine film buried somewhere there.

As to your points:

1) the headlong confrontation with the race issues didn't bother me a bit in this film - I found it refreshing to see a script, even an Oliver Stone-penned one, at that, diving into this mess. It's a brave move and the script is certainly one of the high points of the film.

2) It's interesting you'd note Cimino as being channeled through White....I'd say this has Oliver Stone's mark all over it - Stone can't possibly write much of anything without incorporating his extreme psychological problems within the characters. I'd like to know more about how you saw Cimino within White's character, though -

Totally agree with the rest of your response - this is a crazy, crazy mess of a movie that certainly shoots for the moon - I wouldn't expect anything less from Cimino, really - in this case he quite deliberately goes way over the top, almost to the side of camp without running over. That finale in the shipyard is simply smashing - what an editing job! Again, this is a film I can't even begin to start naming the problems with; it is very far from perfect (and I will say every time Ariane opens her mouth I despair).

What Cimino does here is command our attention by doing what he's always done so well - pummeling his audience into submission with style and sleight of hand. He's never been one for subtlety - but this kind of script demands that kind of outrageousness - it's not timid stuff. The film really runs the risk of being its own worst enemy so often I'm tempted to say 'thumbs down' but then I'll go and rate it 8/10. When "the rice is boiling over", truly you haven't seen gunplay, editing, and insanity like this in any film not made in Hong Kong!

"There is no inner peace. There is only nervousness and death." - Fran Lebowitz

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@Contract

1) Agreed. I do feel, however, that Cimino has always had more soul than Stone - I've always thought Stone was just a millimeter on this side of crazy....

2) Yep. He and Popeye Doyle are two of the most realistic cops I've ever seen. Not to mention the entire bloody cast of Lumet's brilliant "Prince of the City".

3) I really didn't have too much of a *problem* with White's motivations or psychological hangups - the use of Vietnam is something Stone is almost unable to keep out of his earlier films - the most blatantly silly use of it was in "JFK" and "The Doors" - here at least he's able to channel his own angst through a lead character that is quite splendidly drawn.

4) "The Deer Hunter" and "Heaven's Gate" are in my top five films of all time. I've enjoyed Cimino's use of locale more than anything else in his films; I am not a fan of his post-"Sicilian" work. And yes, I have seen "Desperate Hours" - ridiculous film. Although I have to say that even with a film as awful as that one he managed to cut one little mini-masterpiece of a scene - David Morse's death and all that "Red River Valley" whistling....

5) Yes. Agreed totally here. Makes the showdown on the tracks all the more exciting - Joey Tai is clearly out of his league here against that charging rhinocerous Stanley.

6) I have no idea what Cimino was thinking casting her in the film. If she was played by bloody ANYONE else the film would have shot up leaps in my mind. Given Cimino's instinct for actors I can't believe that a) he cast her and that b) the studio let him cast an unknown, untalented lead actress. You'd think after "Heaven's Gate" he'd be on a very short leash when it came to casting his leads.

Have to disagree on Connie's death - it's breathlessly exciting to watch - Cimino's use of editing is so economical - the extreme melodrama of it all just fits so perfectly into the action that I just say screw it - my real view time and again with this film. The funeral I also feel was handled very, very well.

Tracey's rape - yes, I totally agree here. I almost think the line was intended as parody / extreme black comedy - it HAS to be!

I too love Cimino's screenwriting, and I've never really been too bothered by his meandering pace - because what you're usually seeing is so damned *interesting* you really don't care. He started to slip with "The Sicilian" and lost it completely with "Desperate Hours". I couldn't make it through 'The Sunchaser", to be honest. Too painful to see this maestro fall so gracelessly. Maybe I'll have to try it again (you seem to praise it highly), but I really couldn't bear it. I love Cimino's work too much to consider it on the same level.

7) AGREE 1000% with your assessments of the action scenes. If you want to run with the big dogs, you can't piss like a puppy. Cimino is in full big league mode here - I am astonished at how damned breathtaking that shipyard / train tracks shootout is. My wife, who's a big action fan but wouldn't know Cimino from Fellini, watched this scene with me jaw agape - she couldn't believe it. I love to show this sequence to anyone just to see their eyeballs pop out.

re: "Sicilian" - I have a copy of the film that is in extended form from the truncated 115m. cut. It's awful - a pure train wreck - but I get out the wine and the cheese, get royally drunk and focus my eyes in carefully in a vain attempt to squeeze blood from a stone. There's something of a good film in "The Sicilian", but you really have to work against your better judgment to see it!

Great discussion, I wish more people had the Cimino bug. He's one of the all-time greats - I love that Mickey Rourke saluted him when he won his ISA for "The Wrestler".

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@Contract -

1) I'm glad there are others that "get" Cimino. The man as an artist on a scale akin to Michaelangelo or DaVinci, not other filmmakers. He flew too close to the sun, is all. It's a shame, really, because he's had more than enough opportunities since "Dragon" to prove his worth, but I think whatever he had is gone. I did watch that doc "Unmaking" or whatever it was on "Heaven's Gate" - it was very interesting and surprisingly sympathetic to Cimino and the film.

2) Seeing "Desperate Hours" with the idea of the house-as-metaphor might be interesting, but I really was hoping for more than I got with it. The Rourke/Cimino combination I was very excited about seeing, but was astonished at just how awful the film really was. I'm glad that Rourke continues to acknowledge Cimino in interviews, awards festivals, etc.

3) Yes, Ariane was completely masculine - I don't know what the deal was. We'll never know. I can only say that I think Cimino fell victim to fetishistic identification with his female actresses in a way that Lynch and Hitchcock managed to avoid. And that's a shame, considering just how well he handled Streep in "Deer Hunter" and Huppert in the powerfully effective rape scene in "Heaven's Gate".

4) I get more what you're saying here. And this goes with #3 - since Cimino has traditionally handled female roles so well, it's surprising how he started slipping here - he's almost contemptuous. By "The Sicilian", he'd clearly gone out into left field. I know the man has had, let's say, some *interesting* physical surgical choices manifest in his life in the last 15 years and I wonder if he was subconciously taking out his fetishes by writing and directing these utterly inane, cartoon females through these films up until "Desperate Hours". And again, I will agree re: the action scenes - any director this side of Hong Kong should stand up and take notice - the man's on a par with John Woo's best from the 80's.

5) re: The Sicilian. Yeah, I may be trying to hard with that one. I'm just such a fan of Cimino that I don't mind keeping a copy on hand. If someone finally was able to team up with the man and issue a director's cut, cleaned-up edition of the film there may yet be more to be discovered in it....the copy I have now is I guess the "extended" version but it's not 2.35:1 - more examples of the laziness of Hollywood. Guess with Cimino they can't imagine anyone outside of France being interested in the guy's work.

Re: Puzo. THANK YOU. I thought I was the only one who though "The Godfather" was a rather stupid novel. Amazing film, but 1/3 of the novel seemed to be about gynecological surgery.

Re: "Desperate Hours" middle section - hey, do you have a link to that interview? I love reading anything in regards to Cimino's work being chopped up. Would love to know what kind of broader vision he had. Certainly that "Red River Valley" stuff seems to be lacking whatever larger context he had in mind, despite its aesthetic beauty.

Re: "Sunchaser" - I kinda felt we were doomed right during the credits, when that rock and roll soundtrack and sort of neon-fast-cursive credit sequence appeared over the fast-moving car. Perhaps I'm too quick to judge, but I myself was hoping for something a little less campy and reminiscent of an old master who allows himself to be humble with a project. I *may* give it a go one of these days, but I don't know....I did appreciate Woody Harrelson's commitment to the role, but I was just throwing my hands up at the thing. I'll have to watch it again with the idea that maybe both main characters know, subvertly, that there is no such lake and it's a truth they're hiding from themselves the entire time. I just read that the film was entered into competition in Cannes '96, so I guess that's proof that there are plenty still interested in whatever he may bring to the table. But check out the other little bit on the imdb trivia page for that film!

6) I'd like to see the guy crack out one last film. Just one more big-time epic. We need more producers like DiLaurentiis who had the guts to give artists a chance to redeem themselves. I guess we have what we have, but one.....more.....film would satisfy me completely and give me all I could expect to see from Cimino. Have you ever read his novel "Big Jane"? That might be all we have left from him, unless someone were to give him the money to produce it. If anyone's going to do it, it's the French. Say what you will about that country, they've been there for some of our artists like Cimino and Lynch when no one else would. I'm not even sure if "Big Jane" is available in the US?

Yes, good talk. I could talk about Cimino forever but I've not before found anyone who has any interest. Thanks! :)

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@Contract -

Loved these interviews. Cimino is certainly fascinating to read about....the only one I had seen before was the 2nd one - the rest of these were totally interesting - thanks a lot! ~

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"The man as an artist on a scale akin to Michaelangelo or DaVinci, not other filmmakers. He flew too close to the sun, is all."

Bartender! I'll have whatever he's been drinking!

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Cheers! Guess that's my own hyperbole at work. Strange, though, because part of me *does* feel that way!

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@Nuno -

"Masterpiece" is a very strong word for this film. I'd call it many other things, but a masterpiece it ain't. :)

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@Nuno -

Cimino certainly is capable of masterpieces....check "Deer Hunter" and "Heaven's Gate"....

I'll concede that there are definite 'maestro' moments in "Year of the Dragon" - that final shootout at the shipyard and on the train tracks is absolutely breathtaking every time I see it.

I'm certainly aware of how subjective movie criticism can be as well - I think what's fun about these boards is deciphering the whys of such arguments pro and con for a particular film.

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Your point is well-made. But that's the nature of fiction--over the top with suspension of belief. Who would believe that Dennis Quaid could befriend a lizard and represent the alien's child in a council of elders, as happened in Enemy Mine? Or that a teenage girl could actually swap places with her mother?
Or that a little kid could hold off two criminals on two different Christmas Eves?

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Suspension of disbelief has to do with its context within a story. For instance - in "Benjamin Button" I'm perfectly willing to "believe" the idea that there could/would be a guy with Benjamin's condition, but I couldn't for a second believe such a guy would flee to India when the going gets rough and go on a backpacking journey. Totally unrealistic *within that context*.

With your examples above - I'm perfectly willing to give you all of those - because the term "suspension of disbelief" has nothing to do with accepting those premises. If you're the sort that has trouble accepting the story's initial concept as "unrealistic", you probably shouldn't be going to the movies!

However, if a filmmaker asks our indulgence to a large degree, they have to keep their end of the bargain - that they are going to play by the rules they've lain down and asked us to go with. Otherwise they're cheats. Very little makes me angrier than a filmmaker whose asks for latitude, gets it, and then double-crosses his audience.

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