MovieChat Forums > The Emerald Forest (1985) Discussion > Linguistics?

Linguistics?

posted 19 years ago by mtlion
20 replies | jump to latest

Awesome movie. Really like it.

I have an interest in languages. But I am puzzled by the speech in this film.
(NB watched the English and/or American version of this DVD. Unless the viewer chose a different subtitle language, English subtitles are shown, no option to turn them off).

When the family speaks English, they speak English, no subtitles shown.

When the family speaks Portuguese, they speak Portuguese (at first broken, but then fluent), subtitles are shown.

When the construction crew speaks Portuguese, they speak Portuguese, subtitles shown.

When the "Indians" we meet during Daddee's search for Tomme speak "Indian", they speak what sounds like true "Indian" pre-Spanish influenced tongue. Very similar to what is often referred to as "Indian" in Mexico. And the translators speak a fairly good version of same. Subtitles shown.

However, when the people of Tomme's tribe speak, and when Tomme himself speaks to his tribe members, it sounds like a weird slurred, Portuguese-English mix with a little Franch softening melted in. It sounds made-up, fictitious, because a disturbing amount of the words spoken are a slurred version of the words in the simultaneous English subtitles. The subtitles continue to play, which is good, it made it a lot easier to watch the movie in those parts.

Things got really weird, when Daddee gets to know Tomme, sometimes he speaks English, which is both expected and clear, no subtitles shown. And sometimes he speaks a broken Indian (as he did during the search for Tomme), but sometimes the same weird slurred Portu-lish mix (akin to Spanglish=Spanish mixed with English, that we here in the southwest US).

Why would ANY of the words from Tomme's tribe members ever sound English or even Latin-based if they had never had contact with the Termite world? If Tomme retained his ability to speak clear English, why would he alternate between clear English and the weird tongue? I can see why Daddee would try clear English, and why he might try Portuguese to communicate with Tomme, but why try the weird mix? Who learned it from whom. The clear Indian is not heard much after finding Tomme.

If they were going for realism, why the Portu-lish? especially if they were going to have non-optional subtitles. And if they felt a weird language was not going to be a distraction, why not just go for solid Portuguese (or take the "everyone-in-the-universe-has-universal-translators" leap and have everyone speak English)?

Anyway, it's one of those production things that grips my curiousity. I'm going to view the extras on the rented DVD and see if anything makes sense, but I thought I would ask for some opinions. The only thing I can speculate at the moment, is that maybe the Portu-lish is the best they could do for the "Indian" performers, who might not have either clear English, nor true Indian as first or second languages.

...and my brain makes such pretty pictures...

[–] tgs333 19 years ago

The DVD does not have any "extras". Just scene selection, the theater trailer and the opition to change sub-titles.

btw, do you know which character is "Perreira", played by Peter Marinker. Was he the guy that saves Tomme near the end, when Tomme tries to find his dad. The guy said he was in a tribe that Tomme's tribe called "The Bat People".

"I'm a vehemently anti-nuclear, paranoid mess, harbouring a strange obsession with radioactive sheep."

[–] mtlion 19 years ago

Thanks for the info about no extras. But I found out too late, oh well, it's only Netflix.

If I had gotten back to you sooner, I would have tried to pinpoint the character for you, but drat. Guess we'll have to rent it again sometime. In the end, there is a pretty good list of names when Tomme's wife starts matching people up. Survivors only though.

...and my brain makes such pretty pictures...

[–] slipcat555 19 years ago

I suspect they used the made-up language because they thought it would be easier for people to follow if it sounded a little bit like English. And it was probably easier for the actors and writers, too, rather than use an authentic indigenous language. It would have been more effective if they had used an authentic language. Not that anybody would know it was authentic, but the made-up language was just too obvious and fake.

[–] mtlion 19 years ago

Thanks for the input. I'm glad it wasn't just me feeling the language was a distraction.

...and my brain makes such pretty pictures...

[–] slipcat555 19 years ago

By the way, I saw another movie that takes place in the Amazon where the Indians are actually played by Indians speaking their own language. The movie is AGUIRRE: THE WRATH OF GOD and it's in German, but in a few brief scenes the Inca Indian speaks Quechua, the language of the Incas, and a character from one of the rain forest tribes speaks his own language too (I can't remember what that tribe was called, but they mention it in the commentary). Awesome movie.

[–] mtlion 19 years ago

Wow, thanks for the tip.

...and my brain makes such pretty pictures...

[–] psiphi17 19 years ago

I too found their language fake, and hokie. "Ettu a ta na "Ana-con-da"!" It seemed real obvious that it wasnt a true Amazonian language.

A similiar movie, but better, and better use of language, that I really like is "Blackrobe". It takes place in Huron indian territory in the 1630's. The main characters are french, but its English (their french is in english). But the Huron, and other groups like Iroquois and Montagnaige (spelling is wrong), speak their actual tongue. The language is clearer, but still confusing because none of it is English, but the french is in english.

[–] mtlion 19 years ago

Cool. Another great tip. Have a great summer.

...and my brain makes such pretty pictures...

[–] BentSpoon 19 years ago

"However, when the people of Tomme's tribe speak, and when Tomme himself speaks to his tribe members, it sounds like a weird slurred, Portuguese-English mix with a little Franch softening melted in."
I don't have any great linguistic talents, but I noticed this too. While some Indian words I couldn't understand, others sounded like slurred English words.

[–] strongnfemale 18 years ago

They ARE slurred and distorted english words. Read and listen to the subtitles and language carefully and you'll almost be able to understand them without the subtitles. After I noticed that the rest of the film just sounded so funny. For example "father" is either "fata", "fatha", or "fanta". The word "us" is "oosh" or "oozh", the word "way" is "gwai". I could go on and on.

[–] nightingale_paa 18 years ago

Yes I did find the language a little bit odd. i did here some words that sounded like of French origin. But over all I liked the movie very much.

[–] ken_westmoreland 18 years ago

I'm watching the film now. So it's just a made-up language? I would have thought that they were speaking Tupi or Guarani, or one of the other indigenous languages of Brazil. No wonder they only listed English and Portuguese - you can't exactly list 'gibberish' as a language.

[–] bevaremeg 17 years ago

I don't think you can call it gibberish - I think it's actually very clever and apt what they did with the language. I suspected it wasn't genuine, because the linguistic elements uttered all sound like they had indo-european origins to them, which I can't see as being appropriate for native south americans (but my linguistic studies didn't stretch that far).

The language is alien enough for the audience to realise it's foreign, but the familiarity of the sounds of the words gives a way in for an English speaking (or european) audience i.e. it is alien, but not alienating, if you get my drift. V. clever.

[–] jaymajer 17 years ago

The reason for all this is because those scenes were filmed IN ENGLISH. The made-up language was dubbed in later, and it had to match the lip movements, hence the similarities.

[–] loveorko 17 years ago

Ok, I could see where some scenes might have been dubbed in the Portugese-English hybrid, but I don't believe all of the scenes were shot in English. If they were, the film would look extremely hokey and the actors mouths definitely would not line up, even if they slurred the words. I think the "Indian" language is probably the only real weak spot in the film. It just seems to me that they could have done a better job there. I mean the first Indians he speaks to are actually speaking a Native dialect, so why couldn't the director have used that instead. It doesn't take me out of the film when I watch it, but I do notice it, which is probably not so good. I have seen the film so many times, I could probably speak their hybrid language now.

"Do what you do best. Act stupid and follow me."

[–] NAPOLEONWILSON1979 17 years ago

But banda...Sure o ay eena.

But father...Surely you can cure him.

------------------

Co shay! Co shay banda! He's a sjway keena!

You see! You see father! He's a great healer!

------------------

Keed ah monkay...

I killed a monkey...

------------------

I hah seen. I epeppe.

I have seen. I remember.

[–] jaymajer 17 years ago

It WAS shot in English, and it DOES look hokey. Very much so, unfortunately. It's the movie's main shortcoming.

[–] vicky_lc2001-1 13 years ago

No wonder I found the dialogue weird, I had attributed this to actors needing more practice speaking a foreign tongue but it turns out they used a madeup language. It didn't sound very authentic tbh, it sounded a bit stunted, like key pieces that would normally make the language flow were missing. I wish they had just used real NA words to fit within a real native language for better flow. I wonder how Mel Gibson did it, his phonetics in Apocalypto sounded very natural to me.

OPEN YOUR EYES! dailymotion.com/video/xbi2hi_1993-chandler-molestation-extortion_news

[–] slipcat555 13 years ago

In Apocalypto they are speaking an authentic language, a Yucatec dialect of Mayan. It does sound better. The fake language in Emerald Forest makes the film seem a little campy at times. They're both great movies though. For what it's worth, here's my Top Ten List of Native American films:

http://www.nativeamericanfilms.org/top10.html

[–] jporter-6 14 years ago

slipcat555 nails it. At first, Boorman thought they would use an artificial language that sounded like sped up English so there would be no need for subtitles. Finally, the marketing people, or someone, convinced him that the audiences might not be able to make the connections to the dialogue.

They then decided to put in the subtitles.

As you suggest, when you listen closely, you can hear the English words pass by.

My own opinion is that it is probably a good thing they put in the subtitles, because I once viewed a copy of the movie where the subtitles were missing. If I
had not already known most of the script from repeated viewings, I likely wouldn't have been able to understand what was going on.