Timeline error - Back to the Future (1985) Discussion

[–] stargazer_1682 8 years ago

Part of it is arguably the nature of a paradox, because by learning and preventing the circumstances that send Marty back to 1885, they're creating a potential scenario where he never has reason to go back to prevent them, if said foreknowledge prevents learning about those events. There's some contention that Doc, after flying off into the sunset with Clara, but before returning to see Mart at the end of Part 3, would have commissioned a replica of the original tombstone, complete with engraving, to maintain the integrity of the timeline; because without it, Marty never comes back to rescue him, and it becomes an unsustainable paradox.
Coming from the first movie, we have two relatively straightforward timelines, Twin Pines Mall (TMP) timeline, and Lone Pines Mall (LPM) timeline. Pretty easy to differentiate; though there is arguably a variation in-between, occurring throughout Part 1, which is the timeline that results in Marty's non-existence, that he's trying to undo. There may even be some pre-existing timeline where Marty was conceived and grew up to look like Eric Stoltz, but when he went back in time he failed to correct the changes he made to history, creating an unsustainable paradox; the effects of which ultimately lead to fluctuations in space-time that produced the conception of a different iteration of Martin McFly, who's capable of correcting his mistakes in time enough to assure his perpetual existence, as well as a sustainable paradox.

Going into the second two movies, there are multiple interweaving timelines; and the wear on the fabric of space-time is probably terrible. There's the timeline where Marty gets into a car accident, the timelines branching off of that where Marty Jr. goes to jail, as well as where he doesn't go to jail; Hell Valley, and LPM-B timeline, which is basically the restored LPM timeline once Marty destroys the Almanac, but with that wrinkle of Biff briefly having the sports book and crashing into a manure truck again. This is also where Marty crosses paths again with Doc-1955.

Now, keep in mind that Doc-1985-TPM and Doc-1985-LPM are two different people; albeit originating from one common history, that diverges in November 1955. We only saw Doc-1985-TPM briefly. The last 30 years of his life is rather different in some crucial ways, and he dies tragically just as he's seen his dream of time travel realized. Once Marty goes back in time the very first time, we technically never see that version of Doc again; he ceases to exist. Doc-1985-LPM is the one we see throughout all of the rest of the entire trilogy; he is a direct product of Marty going back in time, and is the Doc from 1955-LPM. When we see him again at the end of movie in 1985, he went the long way around.

Part 2 creates a second minor, but still distinct variant of the LPM timeline; LPM-B. The Doc in 1885 is Doc-1985-LPM-A. In the LPM-A timeline, Marty never re-appeared and said he came back from the future. The Doc in 1955 who helps fix the Delorean consequently becomes Doc-1955-LPM-B. Arguably Doc-1985-LPM-A should become Doc-1985-LPM-B at some point, once the ripple effect catches up to him. We don't know when that will be though. On the one hand, when the tombstone was broken, the picture reflected that change immediately, but when Marty endangered his own existence it was a full week before he began to fade away, even as the image of his siblings began to fade away sooner. Some of it could be the permanence of certain changes, like the destruction of the tombstone; that change was definitive, it was a fact of history. Meanwhile other things that are more fluid and can be course corrected, like Marty's existence, take more time to ripple through space-time. A key difference between the tombstone photo and Doc-1985-LPM-A, is that the photo was from 70 years in the future, while this iteration of Doc was from at least 100 years in the future; so there could be more lag. Plus he's lived for the better part of a year in 1885, and given his rejuvenation clinic visit added 30-40 years to his life, he could have been traveling for 10 years before he went back for Marty. The point is, this iteration of Doc is well removed from his 1955 counterpart, and his timeline is not a straight line; thus it's impossible to say if or when the ripple effect would catch up to him.
Another variable added to this, is the misconception of when Doc was actually shot. Marty's arrival created yet another timeline variant, and Doc goes from being Doc-1985/1885-LPM-A to Doc-1985/1885-LPM-A2, deviating from the sequence where he would he would have picked-up Clara from the train station and been killed by Buford. Beside changing what Doc-1955-LPM will learn; in the new timeline seen in Part 3, we learn along with Doc, to his surprise, that Buford didn't shoot him on September 7th, 1885. In the 1885-A-1 timeline, Buford shot him at the festival several days earlier, and he bled out slowly. Even knowing the danger in the new 1885-A-2 timeline, Buford still nearly shot Doc; and it was only because of Marty's quick reflexes with the pie tin that spared Doc that fate.

"Sorry, I mistook you for a corpse."

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[–] avortac4 (3770) 3 years ago

If this -really- happened, all Marty would have to do was to tell Doc to never complete his time machine, or at least never let HIM (Marty) near it, maybe never befriend Marty in the future.

That would make sure nothing bad happens.

Of course it's not this simple, as it would create a paradox; if the time machine is not created, there won't be anyone in 1955 to tell Doc to not build the time machine, so he will build it, and so on. Basically this should apply to the bullet-proof vest as well; once Marty informs Doc of wearing it, Doc wears it and thus there's no reason for Marty to tell him to wear it (not that he really does anyway, though).

It's kind of annoying that Doc not only has to wear the vest BUT also keep it a secret from Marty, and FOOL Marty into thinking he's dead before he goes to the past.

It's still mind-boggling that Doc goes through with -everything- exactly as in the previous timeline, even though he knows he's going to be SHOT at close range - would you take that risk by just wearing a vest but doing everything else the same, or would you PERHAPS take better precautions, as in 'not dealing with those people', or 'use another place for your tests (like an undisclosed location underground or in another city or whatnot'?

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[–] TxMike 8 years ago

It can't be an "error" because in the three movies we see everything that happens. Unless you have actually time-traveled back to a prior year and returned then you can't really understand.

Biff

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[–] ErgonomicSpliff 8 years ago

According to the rules of time travel as established by BTTF, every single time displacement event invariably creates a tangent. By the very nature of arriving in 1955, Marty created a new tangent into which his future flows, instead of the original tangent he existed in prior to any time traveling. The other tangents don't really matter.

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[–] stargazer_1682 8 years ago

What...? Just... what? I'm not sure what this is trying to say, or how it addresses the OP's question; which, being related to the video, is how does Doc in 1885 not become aware of the events his past self witnessed in 1955 - specifically, seeing the tombstone and learning that Buford is going to kill him? You keep throwing the word "tangent" around, but it doesn't really mean anything in the context you're using it. The rules of time travel established in Back to the Future is that any change to history overwrites any previously flow to that history, and can even echo back into the past, if there's a path from the future to follow there - like Marty's picture of him and his siblings, or the photo of the tombstone; or even a time traveler themselves. Any pre-existing timelines cease to exist and are replaced with the new flow of events; some of the variations, or tangents, are more subtle than others.

By all rights, Doc in 1885 should eventually remember him and Marty seeing his tombstone while retrieving the Delorean from the mine. Given how twisted Doc's timeline is though, and how far removed he is from it; there's no telling how quickly the effects of that new history will catch up to him, especially as he and Marty subsequently alter history in a way that affects what Doc in 1955 would experience. Once the tombstone is destroyed, there's suddenly nothing for Doc in 1955 to remember; though this creates a paradox whereby Marty no longer has a reason to even go back to 1885...
This falls into the same vein as a similar debate as to whether or not Marty at the end of Part 1 should be TPM Marty, with absolutely no recollection of the new timeline he's returned to; or if he would become LPM Marty. Some say that he would remain TPM Marty, which is somewhat supported by his confusion seeing Dave in a suit, the changes to their house and his parents' appearance. I'm in the other camp, and think it's more likely that Marty was still in a state of flux, and the "ripple effect" hadn't fully caught up with him, as history fully realigned.
When Marty began to fade during "Earth Angel" in Part 1, it's because time was reflecting the probable sequence of events where he wouldn't be conceived. George kissing Lorraine had the effect of realigning history to include the conception of Marty and both of his siblings, but since that future is still different in certain distinctive ways, then the parts of Marty from the original timeline that no longer happen - the memories of a more weak willed George and aggressive Biff, his mom being a lush and Dave working a low paying night job - should still be fading away, it's just that those change are not visible, because it's happening on the inside, and at an imperceptible level. Arguably, this state of flux for Marty could lend to why Marty could wake up the morning after a week long experience and think it was all a dream, but still conceptualize the differences he sees in his home and family. He still has the old memories, but they're becoming hazier.

Invariably the new timeline has taken hold completely, including for Marty, at the start of Part 2; with two incidental elements derived from that film as potential support. The first is Jennifer Parker. While the real reason she looks different in Part 2 is because they had to recast, it's conceivable that this could be explained within the story as the butterfly effect; where some subtle change in 1955 resulted in Jennifer Parker being born to look completely different. Marty not noticing this difference then would mean that he's become fully integrated into the new timeline as well. My person theory is that it had to do with the two people Marty collided with during the car chase. I like to think the woman is Jennifer's grandmother, and the collision changed her life just enough, along with the nature of the children and grandchildren she produced thereafter.
The second part is Marty's issue with being called chicken; which is introduced in the second film. My thought is that LPM Marty is someone who would have grown up hearing stories about how his father overcome his more weak willed nature, and stood up to the class bully, thus protecting the future love of his life; and then went on to lead a very nice life. In this timeline George McFly is the sort of father Marty would have grown up being proud of, and even want to be like when he grew up. The unintended side effect of that being, that Marty grows up believing that if he ever backs down from a fight, or lets someone think he's a coward, he'd fail to measure up to his dad.

"Sorry, I mistook you for a corpse."

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