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Which show was actually better written - this or Silverhawks?

posted 11 years ago by DarthBill
14 replies | jump to latest

Perhaps it's a pointless question to ask given that "Thundercats" and "Silverhawks" were both goofy as Hell, but I thought I'd pitch the question anyway.

I've been using "Silverhawks" as my treadmill timer (3 episodes out of 8 per disc = roughly an hour) and as already stated Silverhawks could be pretty dang goofy and its protagonists were quite possibly even flatter than the protagonists of Thundercats since except for the grumpy, cantankerous Cmdr. Stargazer they all had pretty much the same interchangeable "straight shooting lawful good" personality that was often found in most 80s protagonists (such as GI Joe), and sadly none of them ever really got much in the way of back story. On the flip side, Silverhawks seemed a little... I don't know, more consistent in its particular day to day space operatic adventures, where Thundercats could be very out there at times, even for an 80s show (if I remember right at least one episode had Lion-O defeating the Lunatacks with house hold items and then flying back to 3rd Earth from across space).

Thoughts?

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 11 years ago

Having made my way through both series again within the last few years I have to say that I enjoyed Thundercats a lot more, but I can't say that's necessarily because it was better written. Thudercats has a few things going for it that spackle over a lot of its flaws; namely the brilliant leitmotif themes of Bernard Hoffer and the colorful and interesting locales of Third Earth. I know Hoffer did the music for Silverhawks as well, but I don't think it touched his stuff for Thundercats. I honestly think the latter is the best scored cartoon of the 80s. And lets face it, outer-space can get a little bland after a while, but there's always some new eye candy awaiting us on Third Earth.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 9 years ago

You make some good points Fluke. I suppose even the Thundercats themselves were more colorful and personable than the Silverhawks heroes, who even by 80s standards were fairly bland & generic if not outright interchangeable as characters.

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 9 years ago

You can definitely tell they share the same DNA, and to be sure Silverhawks has its own set of unique strengths, but as you said, the personalities of the main characters are a little bland and forgettable. Not that personality is necessarily the Thundercats' greatest strength, but there's certainly more color there than w/the Silverhawks IMO.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 9 years ago

Admittedly personalities weren't really the strong point of most 80s cartoons. Just look at GI Joe - still love it for what it is but Flint is basically Duke with a beret.

What would you say were the unique strengths of Silverhawks as a series?

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 9 years ago

Yeah, 80s cartoons definitely had a template and stuck to the archetypes. I would say G.I. Joe did a better job than most re: the personalities, thanks largely to the fact that Larry Hama had given them such distinct ones in creating the character profiles for the toy line and subsequent comic books. The cartoon simplified them for sure, but there was more flavor there than your standard 80s 'toon IMO. But when the new guy was introduced to replace the old guy (i.e. new toy introduced to replace the old one) he was basically the same character (Flint for Duke, as you said).

For me, the real strength of Silverhawks is the noirish cops and robbers motif. Here you have these futuristic cops on the edge of deep space, and their commander is this old school Philip Marlowe type and the bad guys--though colorful in an 80s New Wave sort of way--are basically Al Capone 30s gangster types. Even some of the musical cues hint at this. I actually wish they'd pushed this a bit more, basically made this Elliott Ness and his Untouchables vs. Al Capone in space.

I also think the character designs are clean and iconic and the animation in general is very good.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 9 years ago

I wouldn't be surprised if the guys at Rankin-Bass were thinking "Elliot Ness and his Untouchables Vs. Al Capone in space" when they thought up Silverhawks, and it's certainly possible that a reboot (if one ever got made, and after the way the He-Man & Thundercats reboots got treated it's probably just as well that there isn't one in the works) might play that up more. Of course, I imagine a reboot would probably play up the body horror aspect of sacrificing about 90% of your physical body to rebuilt into an intergalactic crime fighting cop.

And yes, the character designs are very cool.

And yeah, GI Joe probably wasn't as bad as some other 80s cartoons in that regard, while still suffering from that same weakness.

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 9 years ago

Yeah, I think if the MOTU and Thundercats reboots had been more successful/better received, some of the second-tier shows like Silverhawks or M.A.S.K. might've gotten a shot.

It's funny, but I can't recall any Silverhawks episodes that even dealt with an adjustment period re: the metal makeover. You're right, they would likely go the same route the Robocop reboot went, though toned down and not as graphic.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 9 years ago

Yeah, I think if the MOTU and Thundercats reboots had been more successful/better received, some of the second-tier shows like Silverhawks or M.A.S.K. might've gotten a shot.

Unfortunately, success for action cartoons hinges on the outdated business model of seeing how many toys they sell in an era where kids just don't play with toys like they did in the 80s.

It's funny, but I can't recall any Silverhawks episodes that even dealt with an adjustment period re: the metal makeover. You're right, they would likely go the same route the Robocop reboot went, though toned down and not as graphic.

They never really touched on the adjustment period you would expect the Silverhawks to go through in being converted from regular humans to "partly metal/partly real". I think the lack of this angle goes back to the fact that it was the 80s and story telling elements that related to actual characterization, development and personalities just weren't a priority for the time period. A less gory version of the Robocop reboot as you mentioned would be a good example of how modern writers would probably approach the story, and with it, a more fleshed out look at what either drove each member to go undergo the procedure (assuming they weren't like on the verge of death like Robocop's Murphy) I think examining how the 'Hawks would react if they were tempted with a chance to somehow have their physical humanity restored to them.

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 9 years ago

Unfortunately, success for action cartoons hinges on the outdated business model of seeing how many toys they sell in an era where kids just don't play with toys like they did in the 80s.

Very true. If it wasn't for adult collectors I'm not so sure the action figure biz wouldn't collapse completely.

I think examining how the 'Hawks would react if they were tempted with a chance to somehow have their physical humanity restored to them.

Yeah, having one of them secretly harboring a sense of regret would be a nice ongoing storyline.

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A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

Wow, been a while since this thread saw any action, eh?

Well, I've been pondering reasons why Silverhawks never quite got out of the shadow of its big brother series Thundercats (though it at least gets more love than Tiger-Sharks).

I wonder if perhaps the Silverhawks themselves seemed too... aloof as protagonists. 80s cartoons may not have offered the most dynamic character development and were sometimes prone to giving the heroes (and even the villains) the same personality, but the better & best loved ones usually tried to offset this.

Case in point, G.I. JOE, I love the series but Duke, Flint and General Hawk all have pretty much the same personality, the stalwart heroic leaders who occasionally told kid friendly jokes so they emitted at least a little warmth (with Flint clearly having a romantic subplot with Lady Jaye) - though one could argue that as soldiers and leaders they had to set an example for the troops and hold themselves up to a higher standard & be more serious - while the lower ranking Joes were a little more laid back, or in the cases of Ship Wreck and Beachhead they were either very sardonic or very grumpy.

Outside of those two you had the childlike Bazooka and the soft spoken nice guy pacifist Life-Line, the former juxtaposed with the snarky Alpine and the latter juxtaposed with the cynical Lift-Ticket. Of course you also had Leatherneck, who was basically Gung-Ho right down to the mustache but with hair - and a rivalry with Wet-Suit.

Some of the Joes were also shown to have families outside of their work, which made them seem a little more real and personable.

Taking a look at the Thundercats, they sometimes made references to Thundera & occasionally dropped little nuggets about their pasts (Tygra mentions in the "Crystal Canyon" episode "Ever since I was a kid I was shy!" which at least offers some insight into his character & helps us feel like we know him on a more personal level) and we saw them hanging out with the 3rd Earth folks from time to time, which made them seem like they had a personal investment in their neighbors.

With the Silverhawks you never really got much personal background info on them outside of their careers. They always remained enigmatic, with Bluegrass standing out for having the most humor of the characters (not that the others didn't crack jokes) and Stargazer standing out for his grumpiness. Did this hurt them compared to other protagonists of the time period? I don't know...

[–] Fluke_Skywalker 8 years ago

*cough* *cough* Yeah, this thread is a bit dusty isn't it? But then again so is the Silverhawks board, which certainly underscores your point.

I think your observations are spot on. Having re-visited Silverhawks (sporadically, as it's not a series that invites one to binge) over the last few years the thing that stood out to me the most is that it's saddled with perhaps the dullest and least developed heroes in all of 80s toondom. Sure the heroes are almost always less interesting than the villains, but the Silverhakws would be more accurately named the Woodenhawks.

Your point about Duke/Flint/Hawk is spot on, and it works because their underlings are all so colorful. Here it would be fine if Quicksilver were stiff so long as the rest of the 'hawks were a bit more vibrant, but they're as comatose as their commander, save for Bluegrass, who is just annoying.

The rogue's gallery of baddies is even pretty vanilla by 80s 'toon villain standards.

A show/channel I follow on YouTube (Retroblasting) actually covered this very topic at DragonCon last week and posted videos of their panel.

Here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MssB8oN5uQ4

...and here, if you're interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES3XTUnZhpA

[–] DarthBill 8 years ago

To fluke_skywalker -

*cough* *cough* Yeah, this thread is a bit dusty isn't it? But then again so is the Silverhawks board, which certainly underscores your point.

Yeah. Sad really.

I think your observations are spot on.

Thanks.

Having re-visited Silverhawks (sporadically, as it's not a series that invites one to binge) over the last few years the thing that stood out to me the most is that it's saddled with perhaps the dullest and least developed heroes in all of 80s toondom. Sure the heroes are almost always less interesting than the villains, but the Silverhakws would be more accurately named the Woodenhawks.

Ouch. Still, at least the Thundercats had a certain theatrical charm to them ala William Shatner that made them come across as more dynamic & colorful than the more understated Silverhawks.

Your point about Duke/Flint/Hawk is spot on, and it works because their underlings are all so colorful. Here it would be fine if Quicksilver were stiff so long as the rest of the 'hawks were a bit more vibrant, but they're as comatose as their commander, save for Bluegrass, who is just annoying.

Thanks. I suppose the Silverhawks' aloofness could have worked had they been played more as mysterious figures striking out at the villains from the shadows & then disappearing but I suppose that wasn't an option seeing as how they were meant to be the main characters.

It just goes to show that sometimes it's not the characterization it's what you do with it & surround it with that matters. As you say Quicksilver being the "stiff" stalwart leader isn't really a problem, the problem is that he needed more vibrant personalities to play off, and he just doesn't get that outside of Bluegrass & Stargazer, and those dynamics weren't really played up (even Snarf was more of a foil to the Thundercats). The twins personalities are vague at best (Steelheart is vaguely tomboyish while Steelwill has a vague childlike enthusiasm for his work while apparently being sports fans by way of being former athletes judging by their casual use of sports jargon & penchant for wearing sports jerseys while off duty - they could have had made a decent running gag of Quicksilver being befuddled by their random use of sports jargon) and other SH characters like Hotwing and Flashback don't get a whole lot of characterization either (even though you'd think Flashback would be ripe for all kinds of Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land/Man-Out-Of-Time pathos).

Compare & contrast that with say the Ghostbusters from "The Real Ghostbusters", who all served as foils to each other - Peter Venkman the lovable deadpan snarker to Ray Stantz with his boyish childlike enthusiasm, Peter & Ray to the comically serious Egon Spengler & vice versa, with Winston Zeddemore the blue-collar working man juxtaposed with them and all four men juxtaposed with their sassy secretary Janine Melnitz.

Not a fan of Lion-O with a southern accent? ;)

The rogue's gallery of baddies is even pretty vanilla by 80s 'toon villain standards.

True. Mon*Star was probably the most memorable if only because he was basically the Space Mumm-Ra (or Mumm-Ra From Outer Space).

A show/channel I follow on YouTube (Retroblasting) actually covered this very topic at DragonCon last week and posted videos of their panel.

Here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MssB8oN5uQ4

...and here, if you're interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES3XTUnZhpA

Thanks! Very interesting...

To lockon_stratos -

Not sure if relevant but TC had 130 episodes while SH had the standard 65

Hmm, well that certainly could have made a difference in how much time they had to prep the stories and characterizations in the long term.

[–] lockon_stratos 8 years ago

Not sure if relevant but TC had 130 episodes while SH had the standard 65

[–] 8 years ago

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