I cannot help but notice this every time I see this movie or Howard Rollins. I feel if he did not have his off screen problems and were still alive Denzal would still be a character actor. I look at this movie and Washington doesn't even have a half way commanding presence. Rollins was such a towering figure over Washington. I was ready to see him give him a smack. he ws ok but nothing to write home about. And frankly I still do not see the fuss over him. But Rollins is another story IMO.
I say this because it seems the Hollywood system only allows 3 Black leading male actors at one time. A younger one and a more mature one and a older one. And the older one Morgan Freeman is really a supporting acting. In a few years Washington will be the older, Will Smith with be the middle aged one and who knows will be the young one. Probably some rapper with acting lessons. They might be grooming Diana Rosss son Evan, who is a good actor.
It is such a tragedy what happened to him. But I feel Washington really gained a lot from his death, professional wise, the way the system is set up. If I was Washington instead of putting his oscars on a mantal he should put Rollins picture there and give thanks to him every day.
Yet you state that Washington wouldbe nothing more than a character actor? That contradicts your argumment. Saying such a statment means you still wanted to keep 3 black actors and just replace Washington with Rollins. That isnt the way to go. We need to add to it. Rollins did have a great presence and he should have been a Hollywood Icon also, but don't downgrade Denzel because he has accomplished so much.
No I believe that the 3 acotrs each represent a age group. Will Smith for the younger, Denzal for the middle age and Morgan Freeman for the older. I am looking to see who they are going to put into Smiths spot when Washington moves into the Freeman spot. I believe I mentioned that. I also forgot to mention the comic. Chris Tucker was being annoited but he decided to take his 150 million dollars and go to Africa and help. So now they have to pull out that old war horse Edddie Murphy.
I believe that we can talk about Washington now simply because Rollins is dead. I am saying if Rollins was alive Washington would had been regulated to supporting roles and character actor parts and he would never had the chance to become the big star that he is now. That is not the way I want it. I am saying that is how Hollywood does it. We get 3 black male stars and one female star,
If Rollins was alive Washington would be out of the loop because they represent the same age group. How does that contradict anything? Also there is nothing wrong in being a character actor Just because a person is a star doesn't mean they are a good actor. I feel character actors might be better actors then some of the stars. I would say that Bill Macy is a better actor the Brad Pitt.
Also look at Washingtons role in a Soldier Story he is basically the same age as Rollins. He had a lot of expereience acting, much more then Rollins and he comes across next to Rollins in that film as just another co-star, he was not a stand out. Now you may like Washington, I think he is ok but next to Rollins forget about it. In Glory he played the same exact role but in a different war. He was very good but he is not what I would call a star. I am sticking by my guns. If Rollins was alive and didn't crack up Washington would be doing the same type of roles he was doing when he was a alive.
As for OP who said if Rollins were alive Denzel would be just a character actor, I disagree. This movie was released in 1984 which was very early in Denzel's career. He's not the same actor now that he was back then. He improved just a few years after 1984. Rollins was a great actor but I don't see him as a better or lesser actor based on his body of work. Judging Denzel's acting skills based on one movie he did way back in 1984 is silly. That's no different than me judging Rollins' acting abilities based on his performance in a few episodes of The Heat of the Night TV series.
I am not saying anything that Denzal is not a good actor I am saying because of the way Hollywood operates it seems that that they only allow 3 big African American stars at one time, we would never have seen him become a big actor. One for the younger group, which would be Will Smith now, The over 35 one, Washington and Morgan Freeman the older one. And being that Rollins is close to age with Washington they would of represented the same age group so one of them would not have been a star. Be it that Rollins was prepped to be that star, not Washington, Washington would of been regulated to the supporting roles he was getting at the time. There would of been no room for Washington to be a star. But since Rollins cracked up and then passed away Washington was moved into the star spot that was occupied by Rollins. But if Rollins had remained on the up and up and was still alive Washington still would of still been a character actor probably with a tv series.
If you do not agree with me Quick name 3 black male movie stars. Not a character actor but genuine stars that get top billing in all of their movies. And I am not too sure about Freeman who I still is I believe a supporting actor. And do the same with the black female actors. I come up with one Halle Berry. Maybe you can refute my contention. I would welcome it. And btw before you say Terrence Howard he hasn't made a movie since Hustle and Flow and if he has he was not the star. Jamie Foxx was regulated to a ensemble role in Dreamgirls. I will say that at times they will allow for a comic male actor But since Chris Tucker took the money and ran, they pull out Eddie Murphy, but again he was in a ensemble So again quick 3 genuine black movie stars who get top billing ala Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp all working at the same time today or 20 years agoor 30 years ago.
BTW I am trying to figure out who they are grooming to move into the Smith role when he moves into the Washington slot and Washington moves into he mature roles. And who are they grooming for the Halle Berry spot I say Kerry Wsshington. I believe Smith is already moving onto the Washington spot because his roles are getting more serious. And Rollins started In the Heat of the Night when his star was waining because of his personal problems. Wsshington was already moving inot his spot.
The spot wasn't filled back then. The playing field was wide open (If you don't count Eddie Murphy who was the top Black star at that time). Rollins never held the star spot IMO. Whether that's due to his personal problems I don't know but he never held the top spot. It was always up from grabs during his career. He probably was struggling with personal problems even when he was doing movies. Rollins is not known today for any movie he did but pretty much only for his role on In the Heat of the Night. He never made a lasting impact in the movies so I don't see why he would have kept Denzel to lower tier roles. I think that's selling Denzel short and giving Rollins way too much credit. If Rollins didn't destruct Denzel would still have had the opportunity to shine.
I don't believe Smith is the heir to Denzel either. Their styles are so different. I think Smith is similar to what Eddie Murphy was in the 80's and 90's. Smith is more prolific at lighter roles but can do drama to some extent. It won't be an easy transition for Smith to go from the fluffy summer blockbusters that defined him for so long to serious dramatic roles. Denzel never had this problem because it dramatic roles that defined since the beginning. Smith has alot of work to do to take Denzel's spot.
I think Smith can make the transition. I do believe he is a good actor and a good actor can do that. He was very good in Ali. I disagree about Rollins, remember Ragtime? I believe like you he had some problems but he was the black male star at the time. I am not selling Washington short, I beleve the business would of done that. Hollywood is full of great actors who are being sold short right now because of Hollywoods policies. How many Denzal's or Freemans are there that will never be heard of because of it.
I disagree with this argument on a couple different levels.
First of all, I don't buy the premise that Hollywood can only carry one black male star in a given broad age range. It was once true. That barrier broke down over time, and has not really been true for a couple decades now. I'm not claiming that movies have yet made it to being fully "color blind" (they're not), but there is definitely room and support for multiple black stars now. To claim that the presense of any single actor would have automatically relegated Denzel Washington to the role of "character actor" is to ignore the above-the-title status that has been enjoyed by Eddie Murphy, Laurence Fishburne, Samuel L. Jackson, and Don Cheadle.
Secondly, I think that extrapolating future success from the *apparent* screen presense in A Soldier's Story is a mistake. For this movie to really work as a total package, it has work as mystery. For it to work as a mystery, Denzel's character *must* blend in for most of the movie. That remains what *must* happen even if the only way to accomplish it is for the director and editor to use Denzel's weakest appearing takes in all of his earlier scenes. Once he is revealed at the end, and we can be allowed to see his emotions fully burn, Denzel's intesity is every bit a match for Rollins' (though different in tone because of who his character is).
Thirdly, the claim that Rollins would have overshadowed Washington to the point of obscurity ignores history. It was only a few years after this, while Rollins was still around, that Washington got the role that put him irrevocably "on the map". His Oscar winning performance in Glory was dazzling enough that he *was* going to get follow up roles, and he wasn't going to be stopped at that point. His performance in Glory was much more intense and complex than Cuba Gooding Jr.'s Best Suporting turn in Jerry MacGuire, and Washington's ability to judge and select follow up projects has proven much better than Gooding's.
None of this is intended in any way as a knock against Rollins. He was excellent. I just don't think that his fully healthy presense would have blocked Washington's path to stardom.
Again I ask you name more then 3 Black movie stars today, right now, not character aotors, but movie stars that get their name on top of the marquee all of the time. Like Tom Cruise? And I am being a good sport so you can include black actors not from here too. Black actors who can command over 10 million bucks a picture without breaking a sweat. If you can come up with more, then you got me. Name more then one black actress with the same credentials?
And if in any time in history name more then 3 at one time.
And if you do not think it is not healthy I agree. But Hollywood has never been. Ignoring the problem will allow it to go on. You seem to think I am doing Washington a disservice. It is not me it is the system. And not to acknowledge that the system only sets aside a few alloted slots for black actors is not dealing with the problem. And again I would like to explore not just black actors but all people of color. And again I am sticking to 3 and if there is a comedian 4. But again Murphy is now a co star.
You bring up Cuba Gooding, please. Where in the heck is he at these days? He never was considered a big movie star. You again seem to be getting character actors mixed up with big named movie stars. And what really ticks me off is that people like George Clooney don't even have to hits and they are still considered movie stars. Name the last big hit Charlize Theron had? Name the last big hit Kevin Costner had. But I bet you his name will be above any black actor out there with the exception of Washington and Smith. And then he mght get equal billing.
Remember Philadelphia. Remember even Washington could not get top or equal billing over Tom Hanks, even though he had a oscar to his name. PLUS to top that off his role was bigger then Hanks and he still was considered a co star and was awarded with a best SUPPORTING oscar nominee. Jamine Foxx in that movie with Tom Cruise, Collateral Damage. Foxx was on the screen longer then Cruise but still he was regulated to supporting actor. So once again mame 3 big black actors working in hollywood now that get star billing and then come up wth a fourth, And mind you I think Morgan Freeman is really considered a character actor and not a first billing movie star.
Forrest Whittaker even with a Oscar will never have billing over or equal to a Tom Cruise. John Travolta who hasn't had a hit in years still gets top billing. matt damon and Ben Afflack both will get top billing over any black actor out there and maybe equal billing with Washington or Smith. Just look at 1408 that just came outt. John Cusak is right there with Sam Jackson. What does Samuel Jackson have to do to have top billinb over a actor like John Cusak? Oh I know but he won't be able to change the color of his skin.
Hmmm You've got Jamie Foxx that gets top billing. Along with Will Smith. I'd say that's 2 in the same age bracket. And even though you try to down play it. S. Jackson gets top billing along with D. Washington. E. Murphy is one of the highest paid actors in Hollywood. The Rock is making a name for himself (note you just said movie stars, not oscar worthy actors). You could even throw Ice Cube out there as a "Movie Star".
Name a top billed movie that Sam Jackson did that put him in the bracket as a Brad Pitt. You seem not to understand what I mean. Jamine Foxx and Ice Cube. Please The day Jamie Foxx gets top bill with Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt who hasn't had a hit in years let me know. Brad Pitt, Jake Gellenyhall, Heath Ledger all are considered superstars and not a oscar among them And while we are at it Forest Whittaker won a Acadamy Award for best actor name me a movie lately that he is a 10 million + dollar man with the likes of a Matt Damon or Ben Afflack or Joaquin Phoenix. And Eddie Murphy. He wsn't even the star of DreamGirls. As long as people are in denial about the quota system in Hollywood the longer it will last.
The Rock well he is not even considered black. You ask the average movie goer if they consider him black. And let's talk about the Rock. he has got a very big movie out now. I will bet you they will have him playing the Will Smith roles and Smith will be offered less. So in other words I feel if they do consider him black, we will be seeing a lot less of Smith and a lot more of the Rock.
I'm so tired of the conspiracy theories. Just leave it alone. Your thoughts are your opinion and that's it. Check out Eddie Murphy's page here and look at his salaries. He's one of the HIGHEST paid actors in Hollywood. Higher than Cruise, and Pitt. Foxx did get top billing for the Kingdom don't know what entertainment shows you were watching. "Jake Gellenyhall, Heath Ledger all are considered superstars" don't know about that. They are good actors but they are far from superstars. There is no quota system.
Hhmmm. Eddie Murphy is a COMEDIAN who acts. Basically he has carved his own territory. Hollywood knows he is a proven funnyman so that is an entirely different thing from what the OP is trying to get across. Will Smith? Rapper. Jamie Fox? Comedian. The list goes on and on. These guys had to prove themselves in other media b4 Hollywood would give them the time of day. Actors? we're back to The Sam Jacksons, Morgan Freemans, Terrance Howards and Danny Glovers. Where the hell is Richard Roundtree, Billy Dee Williams, etc.? I mean, Bill Cosby "acted", but no one confused him with his good friend and sometime co-star Sidney Poitier.
The Rollins versus Washington theory is a stretch. Regarding the parts in this particular movie, each actor played their role very well. In my opinion, Denzel is exceptional because he plays a Southerner very well and he is from New York (to the best of my knowledge). I think that is as difficult as a foreign accent because for some reason, most actors don't seem to be able to pull it off. I only say this because I grew up in the South and I laugh at some of the Southern accents in movies because the actors seem to be trying way too hard. Anyway...
Regarding Black lead actors, Between Bob Johnson (BET) and Oprah Winfrey alone (2 entertainment people), that is roughly 3 Billion dollars to have whomever they like leading and following in movies.
It is not a stretch. The proof is in the pudding. In Hollywood there is a quota system for black stars I am not talking about character actors. But name on top of the marquee, command what you want stars and do not have to audition Denzel, middle age roles, Smith younger and sometimes Morgan older roles. I ask you to name any time in Hollywood it has been any different. I will guaruntee you that they rest of the black actors are all clamoring for for all of the rolls the other 3 don't want. IMO if Rollins was alive Washington and Jackson would be auditioning for the same type of roles. Do you think Washington would ever do Snakes on a Plane now? No but he would if he Rollins was still alive. Oprah Winfrey is a joke, She has lost credibility a long time a ago, Her target audience is a white housewife from the midwest. She will not do anything that will upset the apple crate in Hollywood. Well I can imagine people trying southern accents is as about as funny as when people try to do various NY accents. As a New Yorker it is apparent Hollywood doesn't know the difference between a Brooklyn accent, a Bronx accent a Long Island accent a waspy NYC accents and a Jersey one and a upstate accent. We all talk the same way to them. I can listen to a NYer and tell what part of the city they were raised, most of us can.
I agree about the quota system. I disagree about Rollins' status in Hollywood before his before fall. I don't believe he cemented his status in Hollywood as the premiere Black lead actor. Sure he was great in 'Ragtime' and 'A Soldiers Story' but he was still doing alot of TV work in between those movies which would indicate he wasn't at top status.
Rollins was a promising star on the rise but the top spot was still vacant and it's debatable as to whether he would have gotten it and/or maintained it.
marbleann, you are actually more accurate than you imagine. You seem unaware of the fact that a major reason for Rollins deterioration was the fact that he was blacklisted by Hollywood. Rollins was very outspoken about the racism he observed which led to his not being able to get a job mowing a directors lawn. This from a guy who many had described as the next "Sidney Poitier". He admitted later that he should have "kept his big mouth shut". In the meantime , Denzel who had been doing crap like "Carbon Copy" was now getting the top roles. Black actors and actresses in Hollywood still talk about "the curse of Howard Rollins". They are still very careful about how they talk about racism.
Something I had overlooked until I read your post and dug a little deeper.
1) A Soldiers Story was directed by Norman Jewison, a Canadian. Jewison himself had to do backflips to get Hollywood to even consider the film.
2) Ragtime was directed by Milos Forman, a Jew from Czechoslovakia.
Thus Hollywood types had never embraced Rollins in the first place. It takes more than talent to make it at that level.
Oh I knew about that, he was very outspoken. I lived in Baltimore for a while and knew about him even before he became a famous actor. But I do believe his drug problems set him over the top. It is very obvious that even big black actors like Washington never really take a stand about anything. And that also goes for sports personalities like Michael Jordan. Look at Bobby Bonds. Long before the steroid controversy he was a superstar. BUT people complained about his attitude. Well no one wants to talk about how he has nothing but disdain for reporters and baseball because of the way they screwed his father around. The most controversial thing I heard Washington say was years ago after Michael Jackson had gotten in trouble with the law and he showed up for black oriented event It was eitht the NAACYP Image Awards or the Soul Train Awards, something he never showed up for before and Washington gets on stage and tells him something like you come back home now tht you are n trouble. Rollins was not the first black actor to suffer from being pro black. Paul Robeson and Canada Lee were both vilified. Canada Lee went to a early gave because of the trouble he had just for being outspoken, Lena Horne was black listed simply because she supported Robeson. In sports because of Jack Johnson being outspoken black fighters were not allowed to become heavyweight champions until Joe Louis came along.
In any case I agree with you about Rollins and I still feel if he did not get caught up in drugs on top of that Washington would still be doing TV and character roles.
I'm trying to determine how Rollins's downfall or success has anything to do with whether Denzel succeeded? You try to make a case for there only being a certain number of "top" black actors at one time -- but even that is garbage. Black folks have always faced discrimination in Hollywood -- and throughout this country, for that matter. Why diminish Denzel to prop up Rollins? They are/were both great actors. Please resist the urge to proclaim, "there can only be three" ... or two or four or whichever magic number you've cooked up. I assure you, I am not obtuse about how Hollywood has treated black folks and continues to treat black folks today, but I'm not buying into the quota system when there's so much black talent out there -- many not getting a fair shake (e.g., what does a black woman have to do to get in the Hollywood game? They are practically invisible. She can't even play a black man's love interest, for crying out loud. The same applies with respect to inclusion of other racial groups. Hollywood takes their consumer dollars but essentially tells them that they're not good enough to consistently star in projects -- because they won't "sell." Baloney. CELEBRITY sells. Cultivate it, and butts will fill seats.)
And I wholly disagree with your statement that "big black actors like Washington never really take a stand about anything." How do you know? In the very least, they take a STAND by merely showing up and being the dignified professionals that they are. Trust and believe, they are being scrutinized harder/harsher than their white counterparts. Denzel is taking a STAND by employing/influencing the hire of black folks in an industry that has systematically dragged its feet with respect to inclusiveness. Denzel is no chump. You acknowledge the Rollins blacklist, yet you play coy about why many black actors wouldn't be quite as vocal as you'd like them to be. They don't have that luxury.
Hollywood may be "liberal" -- whatever that means -- but never confuse it for being progressive (at least, not as of today).
Will Smith? Rapper. Jamie Fox? Comedian. The list goes on and on. These guys had to prove themselves in other media b4 Hollywood would give them the time of day.
Wow Will Smith hasn't been a rapper for years. I Am Legend, The Pursuit of Happyness, I, Robot, Ali, The Legend of Bagger Vance, Enemy of the State, or Six Degrees of Separation. All fine pieces of acting by Mr. Smith. Jamie Foxx has long since moved into acting vs. side comedy projects. The Kingdom, Dreamgirls, Jarhead, Ray, Collateral, Ali, heck even Bait all good movies that show Mr. Foxx's acting talent. It was stated they had to prove themselves. Heck doesn't just about everyone in Hollywood at sometime have to prove themselves to get a chance, black or white.
I am saying that Hollywood is skewed where Black actors are concerned. We have a much better chance of going to a film starring a rapper/comedian turned "actor" than of a film starring a great student of acting. Nothing against Will Smith, but I don't expect to see him doing Shakespeare anytime soon. I only said "rapper", but he too had to prove himself as a TV comedian also before Hollywood gave him the green light. Hollywood knew they would make money, so at that point they don't care if they suck as actors or not. Howard Rollins was a stellar actor and could not buy a job. Even Denzel, for example, could not green light American Gangster-this only happened after Russell Crowe got involved. How many jokes or raps did Brad Pitt have to do to get into film? Robert Downey Jr.? Leo De Caprio? Matt Damon? etc. etc. etc.
I agree Howard Rollins ws so commanding in this movie. When I first saw this the first thing I did was look up to see what actor this was cause I never saw him in anything else. I wish he didnt pass who knows what great films he would have been in. Great actor. RIP.