MovieChat Forums > The Natural (1984) Discussion > 'I ruined him with another deal' - Huh?

'I ruined him with another deal' - Huh?

posted 11 years ago by cableaddict
9 replies | jump to latest

There's a scene in which the judge tells Roy that he once lost a big pile of money on three pitches. Then he says "but I ruined him with another deal."

I assume the "three pitches" bet was when Roy struck out the Whammer, although I don't remember the judge being there. So, i thus always figured that the judge was behind roy getting shot, just a spiteful revenge.

- Except everyone says that the Barbra Hershey character shot him because she was a serial killer, etc... so it would not make sense that the judge had anything to do with it.

OK, EXCEPT: that scene with the judge happens IMMEDIATELY after the scene in which Max start to remember who Roy is. (after Roy pitched to his team mate.) That's a mighty big coincidence, as is a bet on "three pitches."

AND EXCEPT: How did the serial killer woman die? She shot Roy, but then in the papers we see her lying dead. Was that explained? (I don't recall) It seems like she was paid to kill Roy, then killed herself to cover up the evidence. Well, unless she killed HERSELF< but that makes no sense. Plenty more sports stars to go after....

SO -

What the heck did the judge mean by "I ruined him with another deal?"

I have a feeling this was just some sloppy writing. it wouldn't be the first time.

[–] Shadowjack1965 11 years ago

- Except everyone says that the Barbra Hershey character shot him because she was a serial killer, etc... so it would not make sense that the judge had anything to do with it.

The movie was based on a book and articles acknowledge the motivation for the shooting is debatable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Natural

The Natural is a 1952 novel about baseball written by Bernard Malamud. The book follows Roy Hobbs, a baseball prodigy whose career is sidetracked when he is shot by a woman whose motivation remains mysterious. Whether she is acting alone or is part of a plot can be debated.

Since the movie lends no evidence to the idea Harriet Bird was working for Gus I interpret her motivation as just that of an insane woman who, according to the story in the paper being read by Max on the train, is shooting star athletes. I think she was on the train to complete her mission by killing the Whammer, but instead turned her attention to Roy.

[–] cableaddict 11 years ago

I don't disagree, but no one has ever satisfactorily explain that line from the judge. Given it's specificity, and the time-frame in which that scene happens in the movie, it can't just be coincidence.

Has no one ever queried the screenwriter?

[–] Shadowjack1965 11 years ago

no one has ever satisfactorily explain that line

I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game. :)

You got me curious enough to finally go find the answer you bastard (lol).

I just downloaded the book from Amazon, (The Natural by Bernard Malamud). In the book, Max didn't suddenly remember the Whammer duel before they met with Gus. He was still asking Roy for his story and invited him to dinner when they met up with Gus at the restaurant.

The usual exchange we're familiar with took place, but when we get to the conversation in question it goes like this:

"I was betting against you today Slugger."

"You mean the Knights?"

"No, just you."

"Didn't know you bet on any special player."

"On anybody or anything. We bet on strikes, balls, hits, runs, innings, and full games. If a good team plays a lousy team we will bet on the spread of runs. We cover anything anyone wants to bet on. Once in a Series game I bet a hundred grand on three pitched balls."

"How'd you make out on that?"

"Guess."

"I guess you didn't."

"Right, I didn't." Gus chuckled. "But it don't matter. The next week I ruined the guy in a different deal. Sometimes we win, sometimes don't but the percentage is for us."

I believe this to be sufficient evidence to prove my point. The use of SERIES gives us our frame of reference as to what pitched balls he's discussing, and we can see the purpose of the statement wasn't to refer to the strikeout of the Whammer, but to make a point that the House always wins.

[–] cableaddict 11 years ago

Wow.

Nice work!

I can't believe they blew it with the screenplay. Such a little thing but it confused a whole lot of people over the years.

[–] Shadowjack1965 11 years ago

Wow.

Nice work!

I can't believe that blew it with the screenplay. Such a little thing but it confused a whole lot of people over the years.

Thanks! I totally agree also, the two most heavily debated topics about this movie (on the boards anyway) were this one and whether or not Harriett was an agent of Gus' when she was killing athletes.

[–] tomkaren1994 11 years ago

They didn't "blow it" with the screenplay. They made a decision to add interest in the screenplay, as the discussion from the book would not have been as good a scene. I guess it did the trick, since you're on here discussing it.

[–] caraeas 11 years ago

It never occurred to me that the exchange between Roy and Gus had any deep signifigance. Just small talk and sizing each other up. I thought it was obvious that Harriet was just deranged. She was obviously stalking the Whammer, him being the greatest player. When Roy struck him out, she literally turned away from the Whammer toward Roy. I'm more puzzled that she killed herself after shooting Roy, but....oh yeah...she was deranged.

[–] Mississippi20 11 years ago

The three pitched balls is obviously reminiscent of the scene earlier in the film where Roy strikes out the Whammer - I think it's supposed to remind the audience of the earlier scene (although have no implication that Gus had any involvement) because it seems too big of a coincidence to mention three pitched balls.

The points is Gus never really loses.....he may lose a bet like three pitched balls (contrary, Roy won a bet on three pitched balls), but it doesn't mean anything. Gus ruined the guy on another deal. Gus always wins - he's got money, he can pull strings.

The obvious symbolism coming when Roy pulls the coin out of Memo's hair. Gus can't read Roy like he can others. Or as well as he thinks.

[–] scottc-34188 9 years ago

I guarantee even the writers have no clue. There are so many plotholes and open ended queations in this movie yet i still love it :/