Thanks for your answer!
You are welcome. I enjoy discussing Dune.
The Guild is concerned with spice production. I would think the only other entity as concerned and dependent on it is the Bene Gesserit. They will get themselves involved if it seems anything may seriously threaten spice production. House wars, disputes, conflicts, etc. are petty to them. I am not sure how much you have read the entire series, but the Guild would have knowledge of a real threat. It is difficult to keep secrets from them. This is why they approach and basically say to kill Paul during all of this. If Paul is taken from the equation, then it is just petty House politics, and they don't care who wins, so long as the Imperium remains relatively intact and spice production continues.
As far as the Emperor being more transparent, I think that also comes down to politics. The Emperor wants to think he is in control, and the Guild is smart enough to not constantly remind him of the limits of his power.
In the context of the film, it is confusing, but then, the entire plot is pretty complex and dense.
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acidwolf
9 years ago
What was the emperor meant to be getting out of it though?
Leto knew it was a trap, what if he had just said no?
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pope_duke
8 years ago
I am not sure why I never saw this question, but I hope it is not too late to reply.
The Emperor is getting rid of a popular rival, Duke Leto Atreides. I am not entirely sure what would have happened if Leto had said 'no'. It has been too long since I read the original novel. I suspect, though, it would be a negative political move if not an outright defiance of an Imperial order. Leto was popular, and if he declined in popularity, he was no longer a threat. Also, managing of the spice production an Arrakis was too juicy a morsel to pass up. The power available there was seen as worth the risk. Besides, life as a Great House of the Imperium was full of risks and traps.
The Duke also did not realize all the forces coalescing against him (especially the traitor) and how brazen would be their actions. In the film, it is less risky because not only does he hope to procure an alliance with the Fremen, but he also has his sonic weapons to give him something of an advantage. So, he is hoping to use his position on Arrakis to give him the push he needs to vault into more popularity and power.
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therealmandos
8 years ago
Pretty sure Leto planned to get the Fremen onside in the book too. Hence sending Idaho as emissary, etc. As they're being defeated the Atreides are realising just how effective the Fremen would have been as soldiers (cf. Hawat watching Fremen children take out Sardaukar) but it's simply that they don't have time to get them onside, not that they weren't trying..
Oh and for pope_duke, I'm pretty sure that until after the events of the first novel the Bene Gesserit aren't reliant upon melange.
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My Gnostic fantasy novel, Red Hand Rising! http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OFAVCBM
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pope_duke
8 years ago
Yes, he was seeking an alliance with the Fremen in the book, too. This was more crucial, as there were no sonic weapons in the book. The Duke made mention of desert power on Arrakis and how the Fremen were key to that. They did run out of time, in a manner of speaking, though eventually the Fremen ultimately aided House Atreides in taking over the Imperium.
The Bene Gesserit were reliant on melange once they learned to unlock Other Memory and become full Mothers. This was before the first novel. Without the concentrated spice (much more valuable than "average" melange), they cannot created Reverend Mothers.
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therealmandos
8 years ago
That's what I thought too until my most recent re-read, but it's hard to find textual evidence that doesn't smack of retcon. Though perhaps I'm confusing melange with actual Water of Life in that.
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My Gnostic fantasy novel, Red Hand Rising! http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OFAVCBM
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pope_duke
8 years ago
Some of it is implied, for sure, but none of it seems like retcon to me. The Bene Gesserit possess abilities besides Other Memory, but that seems their ultimate goal. A sister is trained and then undergoes the Trial. This is not new in Paul's time. This may not mean they are all "addicted" to melange, but without it, they will suffer and go blind, as it were, basically losing their access to Other Memory once all the Reverend Mothers had died.
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therealmandos
8 years ago
That's the thing I'm not so sure of really. At first it's just "have you heard of the Truthsayer drug a Reverend Mother uses to see her other memory?" and then later we have Jessica undergoing the Agony realising that the Fremen have been passing their knowledge mind to mind using a "poison drug" they discovered on Rossak or something. I think it's heavily implied early on that there are plenty of drugs used by the BG, not all melange/WoL, but that once the spice has been used (which is clearly more effective! I'm not denying it) you're addicted and that's it.
----
My Gnostic fantasy novel, Red Hand Rising! http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OFAVCBM
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pope_duke
8 years ago
Oh, sure, they gained abilities through more than just using the spice, but the key to unlocking their Other Memory was through imbibing the water of life. The Fremen were also using it. I'd need to read again or refresh my memory regarding the drug on Rossak. There were also the occasional "wild" Reverend Mothers (amongst the extant Jewish population, for instance), but that would have been no way to rely on creating Reverend Mothers.
I think they were less reliant on it than the Spacing Guild, but a lack of spice would have hurt the BG, too.
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Ehrgeiz
8 years ago
Wasn't it like that Leto had at the point, when he was sent to Dune, the houses of the Landsraad or how it was called, behind him, being a potential rival to the emperor?
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pope_duke
8 years ago
It was all the politics. None of them would have overtly said they support Leto, but he was gaining popularity. That is a threat, or was perceived as such by the Emperor.
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