Princess Irulan
She's hot. Just thought I'd point that out.
shareVirginia Madsen was breathtaking here. She certainly looked like a princess to me.
----
A journey into the realm of the obscure: http://saturdayshowcase.blogspot.com/
MovieChat Forums > Dune (1984) Discussion > Princess Irulan
Princess Irulan was pretty.
There is a more complete version of Dune on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1gC0Ff-VBk
In that version Paul requests a marriage with Irulan at the end. This is in line with the novels and was missing from Dune movie.
In my opinion Paul should have requested a marriage, but not in the way it happened. No children with her? For gods sake why not? Just use her to gain throne? Poor Irulan, she didn't deserve the way he treated her.
This was a very bad decision. This decision esentially screwed up what followed in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. No wonder the imperial family was plotting against Paul and Irulan trying to poison Chani. It got pretty bad in the sequels.
It seems removal of some scenes made the movie better (better atmosphere, more consistent) although incomplete.
No children with her? For gods sake why not? Just use her to gain throne?
Because he wanted his children from Chani to be his heirs, and it may have been more difficult (if not impossible) if he produced heirs from Irulan. So, yes, he used her merely as a political tool. He could have likely forced his way on the Throne without her, but it would have been more difficult, so he proposed the marriage as a way to partially appease the Corrino and the Imperium.
It is interesting to note, because Irulan began secretly feeding contraceptives to Chani, leading to Chani leaving the Keep, thinking she needed to try a new diet and environ to better conceive, which led to her very spice-rich diet which led to the twins being pre-born. One may argue that had this not happened, Leto may not have undertaken the Golden Path.
Irulan, in the end, did not have it so bad. She did not get to produce heirs, which surely hurt her, and she was isolated emotionally, though she ended up bonding with the twins. She could have been cast aside in much worse ways, some which may have ended in her death. share
It was a very dishonest move to do. That's why this sequence was removed from the theatrical version. The whole movie painted him as a hero, positive character and the end destroyed it. It didn't make a sense to produce sequels as the followup story wasn't likeable at all.
There should have been some better explanation and different relationship with Irulan. For example the imperial troops on land have been defeated but not in space. All they had to do was to kill one person to defeat the rebellion. So to avoid a defeat and leverage the temporary win Paul would marry Irulan and part with Chani. That should have been demanded by the emperor.
Also lets see the wedding vow Roman catholic church:
I, ____, take you, ____, to be my (husband/wife). I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honour you all the days of my life.
We don't know what the wedding ceremony was like, but it was very dishonest to ask someone to be your wife just for using her for your own agenda.
Surely the marriage perhaps wouldn't be too happy, but he should have produced offsprings with her. That's how it worked in royal families.
The story behind the movie wasn't very good, but they probably took the best out of it.
share
This is turning into apples and oranges and an ethics/morality debate. I find the latter enjoyable, but it doesn't seem germane to discussing the situation in Dune. It was not the Roman Catholic church, and even in our world's history, there have been political weddings, arranged weddings, weddings of convenience, etc. They are not necessarily a "good" thing for the bride, but they happen.
I am not sure, though, how it is dishonest, since Paul was upfront with Irulan and the Corrino when he made the arrangement. Asking for a "better" explanation is something you seem to want, but it is not an objective necessity. Your first paragraph is also your opinion seemingly stated as fact. I will assume you are just conveying your personal opinion of the story, and so be it. There is nothing at all wrong with that, but your view is not shared by all.
For example the imperial troops on land have been defeated but not in space. All they had to do was to kill one person to defeat the rebellion. So to avoid a defeat and leverage the temporary win Paul would marry Irulan and part with Chani. That should have been demanded by the emperor.
This tells me you don't quite get the story. There was no fighting in space. The Guild controlled space. The Guild also capitulated to Paul's demands, because they knew he was not bluffing when he threatened to destroy the spice and the ability for more to be made. This was all the leverage Paul needed. He was in total control at that point. They would not kill him, else the spice would be destroyed, thereby crippling the Imperium. The Emperor was in no position to make demands. The reason, again, that Paul married Irulan was to more legitimize his claim and end the fighting. Ultimately, he would have won, regardless, but this expedited things.
You just do not seem to like the story overall. That is fine, but it also seems you are comparing apples to orange in some attempt to poke holes in the tale. Within the context presented, it works just fine. It is not pleasant for Irulan, but it is how it is. share
Eh, to betray your love Chani and ask other woman to marry you in front of Chani is according to you not a betrayal and not dishonest. God help your wife. You just proved your character.
Besides you didn't understand any of the arguments I made. You clearly have no idea what a movie based on a novel means (hint it's not 100% accurate, this movie isn't either). It's pointless to debate with such a person.
Well, I was enjoying our discussion, but now you have made it personal. That says much about your character.
Also, for your edification - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Dude, it's a political marriage. It happened all the time, and continues to happen. Lady Jessica was Leto's concubine, and he DIDN'T marry her because to do so would have precluded a ln advantageous political marriage. It's even stated in the movie!
It may not be what ANY party wants, but it is OFTEN what has happened historically, and no doubt happens today with old money.
As Pope said, you seem not to grasp the inportance of spice. Imagine suddenly ONE person has complete 100% control of ALL petroleum production WORLD-WIDE. Suddenly... I dunno... the leader of New
Zealand gets control of ALL petroleum production. What's more, the USA's ability to launch ANY attack is possible ONLY if a corporation (who has ZERO allegiance to the USA) agrees. Can you imagine the power that NZ would hold? The leader could make ANY demand and the debate would last nano-seconds.
Such marriages and behavior were normal amongst the nobility 500 years ago, Herbert is simply writing about medieval and early modern European royal practices. Henry VIII violated a whole lot of Noble ethics with his endless lustful marriages and wars resulted over it. Paul felt he was powerful enough to shun his arranged bride for progeny, but in real life a King would want to produce an heir with their arranged wife for the political advantages of uniting the two houses such a union would produce. Once he's got some kid then he could get his rocks off with various mistresses on the side.
shareIt was a very dishonest move to do.
Not even a little bit.
These aren't modern humans - they are people raised in court intrigue and plots within plots.
He was raised to marry for political value, not love. He was conflicted on that, as his father had been before him - but he saw his duty to House Atreides as being far more important than his personal feelings.
This was to be a political marriage - she was not surprised by that.
Besides, if she had given him a male heir, he would be now the center of all of the assassination schemes; since the new heir would (in their mind anyways) be controlled by the Corrino influences. share
These aren't modern humans - they are people raised in court intrigue and plots within plots.
He was raised to marry for political value, not love. He was conflicted on that, as his father had been before him - but he saw his duty to House Atreides as being far more important than his personal feelings.
Paul is not depicted in the movie like a heartless and egoistic person involved in intrigues. Hause of Atreides was virtually destroyed. Paul became part of Fremen.
Any woman would be greatly hurt by what he did at the end.
This was to be a political marriage - she was not surprised by that.
I disagree, Jessica's was clearly giving consolation to Chani at the end. The scene was probably removed because it was just too shocking. A really bad way to end a movie where the hero wins and then you realize he is not such a good guy at all.
Besides, if she had given him a male heir, he would be now the center of all of the assassination schemes; since the new heir would (in their mind anyways) be controlled by the Corrino influences.
I think on the contrary, a heir having titles from both houses would bring stability as Corrino would keep influence while Paul would bring the human side. I cannot imagine Corrino trying to assasinate their own offspring and the same for Atreides/Fremen side, even if the offspring had imperial upbringing by Corrino. It would be a very bad idea for Corrino to try to plot anything as it would be foreseen by Paul and could be used as an excuse to completely destroy that house.
But Frank Herbert decided the story should go another way. In my opinion the novels are overrated and not good movie material. share
A really bad way to end a movie where the hero wins and then you realize he is not such a good guy at all.
Just read the damn book.
You'll understand how utterly wrong you are about oh so many things. share
I do not consider the novels worth my time. So thanks for pointing out I'm wrong without saying anything specific. Really fruitful discussion with you....
shareYou're talking out of your ass, making up all sorts of extremely stupid comments.
You obviously have absolutely zero idea what you're talking about... you're simply trying to judge the book based on your own morality - which as we all know, is a pretty ineffective way to understand a classic novel.
These people are NOT Americans or French, etc... their sense of honor and ethics is much different than anything we have here at this time.
Instead of trying to tell US how it's supposed to work, as you have been, you need to read the damn book.
You are being ignorant and frankly quite stupid... so telling you to read the damn book is pretty much telling you that your contribution to the Dune forum is undesired until you're ready to actually know what the hell you're talking about.
You claim that we don't, and you do... and of course, you're full of it since you are passing judgement on fictional characters without having even a tiny bit of a clue what their real motivations are. Meanwhile, you tell us (who have read the books and seen the film many times each) that we are wrong???
The *beep* you said to pope is unacceptable, especially considering your gross ignorance of the subject.
hahaha - now go away and let the adults talk.
Pope got what he deserved. You seem to fall into the same category.
I'm discussing the movie, this is imdb forum, I don't care about the book. You are on the wrong forum dude. I can only laugh at your suggestions. You should wake up.
I read summary of the story for each novel and didn't like what I read. So there is no reason to expect I would make an illogical decision to waste my time on it given that I disagree with many things and do not identify with characters.
Discussion is not about falling in line and doing something one side wants but about expressing different opinions and trying to understand reasons for those. You seem to be incapable of having a meaningful discussion. The Dune novel = Bible for you. I saw it very early in Pope and now in you too. I call you both 'dune fanatics'. There is very little we can continue discussing.
Your moral standards are obviously entirely different than mine.
Discussion is about trying to understand how something works, or why their honor code would be different than ours.
It is not about being the complete ignoramus that you are being.
What the hell would go on in your head that you would assume that Dune = Bible? Are you that deluded to assume that those who don't cower in fear like it's the year 1385 need to have some special relationship other than simply respecting the fact that it's an awesome book.
You didn't come here to understand anything about the film or novel, you just came here to act all high and mighty.
It's fiction!
Thank you, chouse, but there really is no point, and I suspect the best option is to ignore this self-righteous person. They claim to only want to discuss the movie, then they engage in personal attacks. All potential hallmarks of an insecure, immature person, but far be it from me to suggest I could possibly know someone that well from a few exchanged (and quite possibly misinterpreted) comments on an internet forum.
Oh you're more than speculating. Folks like us are good judges of character.
This person is either trolling, or so mentally unhealthy that exposure to the Internet is not a good idea for them. :D
Despite their claims that they want to discuss the film, it's obvious they don't get that there's more than one book out there worth reading. :D
What threw me was I was really trying to just have a mature, rational discussion. It's pretty clear that when someone responds with personal insults and attacks just because you don't agree with their argument, position, whatever, then they have an issue.
shareYeah, it's odd how that works.
Equally odd is when you're having a nice discussion with somebody and then they toss out a solid assertion and quote _their_ sacred text, as if that somehow is relevant to the discussion in any way. I had that very thing happen to me today as a matter of fact, lol :D
In my opinion the novels are overrated and not good movie material.
If you haven't bothered to actually read them (no, synopses don't count), your opinion of the novels means precisely dog sh*t. share
If I do not like the story or characters why on earth would I waste my time reading them? According to synopses it's *beep* Not movie material and the last remake was a total flop. Nobody is going to waste any more money on them. It's a total failure in comparison to Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Stargate. The list is endless. Only total failures could belive in total failure.
shareI love SW and ST (haven't seen much Stargate) and consider myself a true fan of LOTR (having read through the entire HoME series) but Herbert's Dune novels remain my favourites of all time. Having read the synopses myself such as on Wikipedia I think you probably shouldn't read the novels (the synopses as far as I've read them do seem to get the novels' themes right) but personally I think they're great. I would probably agree, not the best movie material. Great for a HBO series, though.
Irulan was hurt by not being able to give birth to the heir. Her entire organisation attempts to eschew the notion of love - she seemed to feel as little for Paul himself as he felt for her. Her desire to give birth to the heir is presented as a selfish desire in the books. Certainly she was less "personally hurt" by his rejection of giving her an heir than Chani would have been for Paul to abandon her.
Paul certainly isn't a "good guy". He likens himself to Hitler at least once. One key aspect to truthsense (knowing sincerity when you hear it) is the requirement for a person to be honest about themselves to themselves. In this, Paul is pretty unique. He knows that "conventional morality" would have little time for most of the things he does. This goes not just for our morality as readers, but for the morality of those subjects of his Empire who do not truly worship him.
Emperor Shaddam had no way to make demands of Paul, unfortunately for him. Irulan got the political marriage she expected, but didn't get the babies she expected. For herself, Chani wanted her mate to have the strongest position available. She did not need to be Paul's wife and at no point in any of the novels (as far as I can recall) did she bemoan her fate to remain a concubine. *Jessica*, now *she* thought a bit about marriage to Leto. But the person most upset with the concubine situation was Leto himself.
----
My Gnostic fantasy novel, Red Hand Rising! http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OFAVCBM
I'm not telling you you should waste your time reading something you don't want to read. I'm telling you that if you DON'T you should have the integrity not to go around professing the opinion that the books you haven't read are "overrated". You're not qualified to give them your own rating, let alone to criticize how others rate them.
shareTjreesome with Chaninand Irulan and I would shoot my cumshot haderach all over Arrakis
shareConan agrees, although he favors warrior-women to princesses: princesses remind him of that quest he never saw a dime for, because while Conan was away they killed the quest-giver in a deleted scene and so Conan got screwed, no reward.
Damn Princesses...