I'm just curious, does anybody know why Kenneth Johnson wasn't involved with the V: Final battle mini-series? He wrote, directed and created the original V mini-series, which was just an incrediblely well done mini-series, so it's disappointing he wasn't involved in the 2nd mini-series, which was good but not as good as the original. Anybody know specifics?
Lord Humungus rules the wasteland! Nothing can escape!
NBC wouldn't let him continue with his vision, and wanted something completely different. So rather than compromise his principles, he walked away from his project.
I wish he would have taken V with him, rather than give it up. But you can't change history, so we are stuck with the acceptable "Final Battle" and the extremely disappointing "Series".
...Dan
http://www.captiongallery.com
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Johnson did supervise the writing before dropping out when he felt he wasn't going to have the budget he felt was needed. The "Lillian Weezer" credit on the teleplay is actually Johnson, showing his disdain for the final effort.
Part 1 of "The Final Battle" contains more of the elements of Johnson's original vision than any of the subsequent parts. The final result though is very unsatisfying, especially the unexplained disappearance of the Bernsteins, who were such vital characters in the first miniseries.
The Bernsteins do make an appearance in The Final Battle. It is during a quiet, brief, and very good scene near the ending -- because their silence speaks volumes in that moment.
I appreciate reading the info on Johnson, though I'm not sure what else he might have preferred for an ending (perhaps his original vision would have just gotten us here differently). This is really the only resolution that supports the theme behind this story, and I disagree with the opinion that it wasn't as good as the original. The Final Battle was more exciting, had better character focus, and was overall more satisfying and enjoyable than V. The ongoing series, however, just shouldn't have been made, but that's that.
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Yeah, that is when a bunch of people are noticing the red dust being dropped from the balloons and realize that they are now free. I wonder how they felt about their son Daniel being killed by the Visitors?
shareand I disagree with the opinion that it wasn't as good as the original. The Final Battle was more exciting, had better character focus, and was overall more satisfying and enjoyable than V >>> It was also more childish and resorted to lame cliche sci-fi elements as opposed to doing anything meaningful. The conversion chamber could have been a very interesting aspect of the story to explore, but instead we get flashing laser lights and Godzilla's head chasing Julie down a lizard-skinned corridor. Not sure how that was supposed to convert someone. And then there's the magical starchild who starts glowing and takes control of the mothership. Hmmmm, one would think it couldn't get any worse, but then came the series which was nothing but Dynasty in space. The only good elements of The Final Battle were plot threads that carried over from the first mini-series, such as Donovan's mother, Christine Walsh, or the traitorous David...and the only good new element was Ham Tyler and Sarah Douglas. Overall, though, The Final Battle was devoid of anything deep other than what HAD to be resolved from the first mini-series. It was great back when I was thirteen years old, but it doesn't hold up now.
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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?
I completely agree, SolarSailor.
The original V miniseries was an exciting sci-fi saga that also happened to be a brilliant metaphor about fascism, and the ease with which humanity can give in. This is what made the original miniseries so wonderful. It was a good sci-fi story that was also very intelligent.
V: TFB didn't have any of the underlying themes that made the first series so special. It devolved from a metaphor about fascism to a story about human rebels taking down their alien conquerers. Now, on the surface, these may not seem very different, but really they are. While V and V: TFB seem to tackle the same subject, V brought ingenuity and a deeper meaning to the table, while V: TFB does not. V hooked you (or me, at least) through thoughtful engagement with the material. V: TFB hooks you through superficial action scenes and "intrigue" (aka, the heroine has been kidnapped - we need to go rescue her!)
V: TFB is the fight, but without complications or moral dilemmas. We know who the good guys are, we know who the bad guys are. They "conflict" for six hours, the good guys eventually win, the end. It's like someone told the scriptwriters to wrap up the story threads from the first miniseries as neatly as possible. "Don't stop to expand and ponder the deeper implications of this metaphor! What metaphor? Just wrap it up, goddamnit!" the TV executive shouted. Thus we get characters running around "fighting" for six hours before a deux ex machina made of red dust and star children.
In fact, everything about V: TFB is a little too neat. The rebels seem to infiltrate the V's bases far too easily, and far too often. You'd think maybe the V's that wish to keep their machinations a secret would have better security, but, no, the rebels keep getting in - into processing plants, major media events, headquarters, motherships, water facilities, etc., etc. And maybe they lose some minor characters along the way, but all the major rebels get away pretty much unscathed (with the exception of Ruby, who had one of V: TFB's few meaningful deaths, if not the only one).
These action scenes occupy so much of the script, but since our main characters get in and out so easily, the stakes never feel particularly high. The scriptwriters throw out so much of interest, but don't bother to develop it - at all. Julie doesn't suffer any long-term effects of the conversion chamber. Her loyalty is questioned, but she's ultimately fine. The rebels are living on this huge compound that somehow manages to evade detection by the V's. And with so many characters on both sides, you'd think someone on either side would have some ulterior motives to throw some complications into the plot, but, no, lines are drawn - rebel or V - and the story sticks to them (with the exception of Martin, who we knew was with the rebels from the outset).
V: TFB isn't bad, necessarily. It's an entertaining watch, and does its job of resolving the storyline. But it suffers from one from one hell of a lazy script. Which, given how clever and thoughtful I found the screenwriting in the original miniseries, just makes this one big disappointment.
Yeah, you want to know where they went to. If they were going to let their house be a "safe house" then why weren't they there?
shareWell I agree that Steven E. deSouza's first two episodes of the ongoing series were great, but V: The Final Battle was not a bad miniseries. Far more entertaining and better plotted than the original, with deeper characterization as well. The first V, while good in its own right, was more of a "jumbled mess" and "rushed," with its rather random direction, not the second.
share"but V: The Final Battle was not a bad miniseries."
It might not be bad, but it wasn't great either... It went downhill very fast in the 3rd part.
"Far more entertaining and better plotted than the original, with deeper characterization as well."
Oh come on...! Are you sure this is the same miniseries we are talking about?!. The characters became so hollow during V:TFB. Especially Diana. The depth of characterization was practically non-existant! Ken Johnson guided them to brilliant performances, while in TFB they were just doing their job, everyone seems so disinterested after Johnson left. The exception is Michael Ironside, he gave a very good performance. But then he wasn't in the original, so he didn't have to go through the loss of V's mentor.
"The first V, while good in its own right, was more of a "jumbled mess" and "rushed," with its rather random direction, not the second."
I don't think it was jumbled at all, however there was a lot going on at once, which you had to keep a track of. I agree V was rushed, but they did a fantastic job regardless. V:TFB had a very linear direction, unfortunately it was straight down the crapper!
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It might not be bad, but it wasn't great either... It went downhill very fast in the 3rd part.
The characters became so hollow during V:TFB. Especially Diana. The depth of characterization was practically non-existant!
I agree V was rushed, but they did a fantastic job regardless. V:TFB had a very linear direction
unfortunately it was straight down the crapper
Your points about Mike, Julie and Elias, that was all natural character/story development. All that came about because they are at that point in the story. I hardly see how that "blows V away".
"Diana: Revealed more ambition and showed more ruthlessness on several occasions-"
Again, natural character and story progression, unfortunately they got her character wrong. They did the most obvious thing to her character, and they went over the top. Ken Johnson once commented on her perfomance, saying "you could see her twirling her moustache", before she kills the priest. Its funny that you should mention the wicked witch of the west, because her villainy was on that level in TFB. Either that or some bad guy in scooby doo... It was just laughable.
In V she was mysterious, that was something which drew you to the character. It seemed that people were afraid of her in V, a force to be reckoned with, in TFB you felt none of that. She was no longer this cool and collected woman that she was in V, just a bitchy impersonation of the real Diana. If I had wanted to watch camp bitchiness, I would have watched Dynasty instead.
"And I wouldn't say the first V, with its sometimes poor focus, did a "fantastic job." Most of the first part felt like filler."
Talk about grasping at straws... It was not "filler", it was character development. Also I think you'll find most of that occured before they became apart of the resistance movement. What you saw was ordinary people getting on with their *lives*... <shock, horror!> All that was there to illustate that they were "ordinary" people, and had lives before it gets taken away from them. I really do think you don't understand what V is all about when you come out with this "filler" rubbish.
"Come now. Hurling insults in the absence of reason shows a lack of validity for your claim, so maybe this should just end here. I think I've stated the case for V: The Final Battle well enough."
So just because I said it "went down the crapper", that somehow invalidates my claims about TFB?
You whole point about TFB is, it's great because it's more action action packed. Sure it is more action based, and the pace is much quicker, but you can't ignore the idiotic steps taken to lobotomise the whole story for the sake of more action. Don't get me wrong, it is enjoyable for what is was, but for anyone to say it was better than V, well to me, there is just something very wrong there.
It is clear you prefer TFBs "whiz bang explosions" over Vs more cerebral content, so yes we should end it here as it is pointless to debate this with someone with that kind of mindset.
"You whole point about TFB is, it's great because it's more action packed"
Actually, no, that's not my claim at all. (Perhaps it's easier for you to dismiss my position by believeing so). That is one of the reasons I think it's more enjoyable than V, but another reason I find it superior is for the character-related examples I gave. That brings us to...
"Your points about Mike, Julie and Elias, that was all natural character/story development."
Julie and Elias I'll give you; not Mike. His characterization was simply deeper in TFB. Even if the situations with Julie and Elias can be called "natural character and story progression," that still makes them more interesting in the second miniseries, so my point about deeper characterization stands.
Regarding Diana, I suppose it's just an agree to disagree thing. You have one opinion on her, I have another. I think the mystery thing you mentioned in the first V was much less interesting. She's far more gripping in the second miniseries -- to me.
"All that was there to illustate that they were 'ordinary' people, and had lives before it gets taken away from them."
[EDIT] Just to clear up: When I said "most of the first part" in regards to V, I was referring to Part One, not the whole two-part miniseries.
Fine; upon reconsideration, I'll say you have some validity there, but I notice you didn't address the examples I gave -- some of which do seem rather tedious, boring, and unnecessary. By comparison, I feel The Final Battle does a better job of incorporating the smaller parts into the story (Donovan and Julie's romance, for example), rather than having them take up space.
"Don't get me wrong, it is enjoyable for what is was, but for anyone to say it was better than V, well to me, there is just something very wrong there."
And to me it's exactly the other way around. I feel that TFB was the far more satisfying and enjoyable work overall. By comparison, V is just rather boring to me; not bad, but not at all great either.
I liked the Final Battle, but that's probably because it was still based on Johnson's script, rewritten and watered-down at some points.
Ham Tyler was really cool and I also liked the interactions between Martin and Mike Donovan. I didn't care for the final "star child saves the day thing" but otherwise it was pretty good.
But in no way was it as good as the orginial V, IMO. The new writers and director dropped the ball on some occasions. The most critical:
- Diana. She was an alright character, but after I read Johnsson's orginal vision of the scene she killed the priest, I got a bit mad that it wasn't filmed like that. Diana was supposed to have been very moved and touched by what the priest had said, and very upset that she allowed herself to be that vulrneable. When she finally killed him, she was near tears.
- The battles. In the orginal V, the resistance kept missing the visitors while the visitors killed many rebels. This made sense because the visitor soldiers where proffesionals and the resistance where just rag-tag people with little experience with guns, the same can be said for the final battle - obviously with the expection of Ham Tyler. But in TFB, the vistors killed maybe 1 or 2 rebels in a mission while the resistance killed dozens. Go back and watch some scenes of the orginal V, for instance the capture of Mike and Tony. Mike keeps missing al the time, the same can be said of th assault on thr armory, where the resistance killed maybe 1 or 2 vistors while the rbeels were slaughtered. Compare that to the battles in TFB where the resistance hardly lost any people at all. Its so Star Wars.
- The soap opera like bickering between Steven and Diana, whereas he seemed genuainly afraid of her in their chat in the orginal V. This was most notible in the first part and it really annoyed me.
- Pamela was orginaly supposed to have real conflict with Diana, to mirror how high ranking nazis often became enemies during the war. Instead we got a dynasty like cat-fight that was very disapointing.
It was good, mostly because of Ham Tyler, but it could have been a lot better,
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Unfortunately, I only know bits and pieces that I've read. I'll try to se if I can remember it all:
- Ham Tyler was supposed to be wheel-chair bound, but still a tough-ass ex-mercenaray. This change I don't mind though, because it meant that Ham could be more active than he could have been in a wheel-chair.
- As I said, Diana was to have shown emotion when killing the priest, but the dialogue would be pretty much identical, only acted diferently. Johnsson also said a he wanted a young, hipp priest rather than the old one we got.
- It was supposed to be hinted that the town folks killed Daniel after the visitors left.
- Pamela was meant to mirror high ranking nazis bickering during the war (like Himmler and that polish governor - I don't remember his name).
- There was no star child crap with Elizabeth having magic powers. Martin sacrifices himself by piloting the ship away from Earth while the others escape.
That's pretty much all I know. Also, I'm not 100% reliable.
To me, the whole thing from V:TO to V: TFB flowed very well as one big story. Had I not read this stuff, I would have never known there were big changes in who was directing the story. Sorry to say, but for the most part, knowing what Kenneth Johnson had in mind compared to what we got, I'm glad we got V:TFB the way it is.
Changes from his proposed plan I like:
1. Ham Tyler walking...great character, possibly my favorite.
2. I prefer what happened to Daniel's traitor ass, and the fact that we got we got to see it, rather than it be hinted that he was killed. This way was much more satisfying.
3. I like the ending better than the proposed ending. If sources are true, I wouldn't have cared for the original ending of Diana and Elizabeth escaping together, Julie and Donovan flying off to another mother ship to save the people on board, and Martin sacrificing himself. Too many open-ended questions which may never have been answered. I like the conclusion given by V:TFB, even if I have to live with the Starchild crap (of which I totally agree was not good).
Now, that being said...there is one thing I would have liked from Johnson's original plan kept in V:TFB and that is the Diana/Pamela power struggle. As mentioned by someone above, it was a catfight rather than a legitimate power struggle. I would have liked to have seen how it mirrored the Nazi power struggles of WWII.
However, to restate my point, the whole thing flowed together very well and I won't watch one part without watching the other because it's all one story for me.
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We don't actually see Daniel getting killed, just him being dragged away to his death while he is screaming "NO!" to Steven (and probably soiling himself in the process). He did get what he deserved, though-the traitor. He certainly didn't join his grandfather in heaven.
shareTFB was a miniseries that started good, but went downhill.
Part 1 is full of conveniences, especially how easily they can duplicate alien technology (unspoken assistance from 5th columnists? Nope. Haskell is an Earthling and would not be needed to run alien technology, complete with the Star Trek bleepie noises it made...) It is action-packed, overall well-written, and the cliffhanger is fantastic. Plotting is fast and tense, but it wouldn't remain accurate... or as entertaining... as the remaining eps would show.
Part 2, however, gets all soap opera with the assorted love affairs, continual chases, etc. The fallopian tube film must've cost a bundle for the producers to use since that footage was only recently made by scientists in real life... the technobabble (biobabble?) to incorporate its use is passable... Julie sounds more "happy" than "pained" to be in the Visitors' torture chamber as well... but that's what one gets when seeing it in 1984 as a 12 year-old compared to now, oh my... But it's like they ran out of cool things in part 1 and started to meander... and the other mother ship arriving from the home planet is a temporal inaccuracy... if it takes 8 years to get to Earth and the new ship's arrival is because of reports heard... Even Christine Walsh's demise is predictable. It's well-acted, but it's predictable. As was the followup, with Eleanor continuing the charade that it was all a Hollywood manufactured stunt, providing no proof behind the outlandish claim... (what's worse is that the Earthlings listening to her drivel bought it, as how they were supposed to do as written.)
But their adding in Ham was a stroke of genius, though... his presence elevates what, quite often, descends into lamentable cliches. He's an anti-hero.
Part 3 is the worst, with the Star Child having many dumb magical powers and provides a neat little deus ex machina ending that is completely ridiculous. The red dust is a neat idea, which had to be written away to keep the Visitors as a credible threat in the ill-fated TV series... the same one that decided Elizabeth was somehow special, when nothing was said to describe her vs any other hybrid from being made.
And it should have been obvious Sean would be a double-agent. Even Donovan himself isn't that thick, yet he is written out to be so stupid. *ugh*
All 3 eps are comparatively shallow and rely more on action and glitz than intellectual depth. Yes, Donovan/Ham makes a more engaging duo than Donovan/Julie, but the double act isn't the focal point to the story. The original mini, while slower in pacing, does have a build-up and feel of powerful aliens that you have no chance against. It's palpable. We see many humans and how they react. The WW2/Nazi analogy is poignant as well. Yes, one horror moment in part 1 no longer feels scary but comes off intentionally humorous thanks to the music and one too-long shot of the alien's cross-eyed face... but part 2's revelations do far more than most of anything coming with TFB or afterward.
I still liked this sequel,even without the unfortunate limited involvement of Kenneth Johnson. I agree, that Starchild resolution was silly.
This was still a success compared with the three "Incredible Hulk" reunion films that were made without the participation of Kenneth Johnson at all.(He created the TV series that starred Bill Bixby).