question to Russians about this film - The Right Stuff (1984) Discussion

[–] smcbee27 10 years ago

But it was for all mankind, no matter who's leaders signed the plaque. Both societies benefited in the jobs market, national pride, technical and scientific acheievements, etc. USSR was ahead of us at even every turn. We caught the Moon first because Intelligence told us they were weeks from the moon so we ran when we should've still been walking by most time tables and safety standards. Then again they had more tragic setbacks then we did but we didn't know this until the new open society made these reports available. So every person, man or woman who worked towards this go whether astrotronaut or cosmonaut or janitor, families in both countries sacrificed everything they had by losing the head of their family to this great race and both countries learned, gained and lost from the race to make the Moon red or not. To see it any other way is not seeing the big picture. Take it a step forward to the Apollo/Soyuz program and we definitely can see how it was "for all mankind" no matter which countries name's appeared on plaques left behind.

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[–] Blueghost 9 years ago

No, that's a complete lie; the Russians were not ahead in automotive and civil engineering, nor were they ahead in consumer electronics, and when we were using automated farm equipment they were still recruiting able bodied people for the annual harvest.

Their advances in aerospace came at the cost of lots of lives, mostly animals, but also a lot of pilots. Where we, the US, wanted to bring back our animal specimens alive, but not simply as a moral gesture, but to see how well the creatures fared in orbit.

The ONE THING you got right was that we in the US saw our scientific and technological advances as advances for all FREE men and women of Earth, not those who lived under planned economies with behavioral legislation.

FYI the Russians were not weeks ahead. We had planned on going to the moon years in advance. And it was for fear of Soviet domination of space. The plan was to put a base, possibly a missile base run by the USAF on the moon with missiles at the ready. The objective proved too expensive, so we had the Soviet sign the demilitarization of space treaty.

Maybe you need to read a little bit of history.

Strike that; A LOT of history.

I might suggest starting with Milton O. Thompson's "At the Edge of Space" as a primer.

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[–] thaumielx72 10 years ago

OK, so it wasn't in the same league as Columbus and the other explorers but we did get the microchip and the MRI and other great advances.

It was certainly not a waste of time for humanity.

Oskars problem with Eli is not her ambiguous gender, but her ambiguous humanity.

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[–] KingCobra686 10 years ago

The motivation for going to the moon might have been somewhat selfishly motivated by the USA, but it was certainly a great step for mankind no matter who ended up there first. Going to the moon is a very impressive feat.

If you step back and look at things overall, does it really matter which group of humans made it to the moon first? The important thing is that some did. In the end, the benefits of learning how to go to the moon have definitely benefited everyone.

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[–] Starcraft_rules 9 years ago

Well as a Russian, I can tell that most Russians believe we won the space race and Americans filmed the moon landing. That's how Putin's propaganda works, unfortunately.

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[–] rogueforte 9 years ago

Could this be where the whole conspiracy theory about the Apollo 11 moon landing being a filmed hoax originated? It would sure make sense.

I can't say as I blame the USSR for going this route. The Soviet space program was a significant point of pride and the USA landing on the moon, were it not to be dispelled by Communist propaganda, would be rather a huge blow to the national Soviet psyche.

In fact, could it be said that the moon landing was the first step in what would eventually be the dismantling of the Soviet Communist regime?

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[–] pjmcgill142 9 years ago

Could this be where the whole conspiracy theory about the Apollo 11 moon landing being a filmed hoax originated? It would sure make sense.

It doesn't make sense to me. Without checking, I understand most of the 'believers' to this ridiculous thought bubble come from the US of A and the UK. The Russians have certainly had their chance to expose the 'faked' landings... all six of them. But haven't.
The unmanned landing attempt during the 11 mission would point to this. Why make the desperate last ditch effort to return a soil sample if these missions did not exist?

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[–] johnston.scot 9 years ago

I think the prior poster was suggesting that the Soviets knew the missions were real, but planted rumors that they were fake to kick off the whole conspiracy bandwagon.

In any event, that seems unlikely:

- In that era, the Soviets weren't really tuned in enough to the mechanisms of rumor propagation in the West in order to have the expertise to start the rumor without putting their handprints all over it.

- It would be referred to somewhere in the KGB (etc.) files that went public post-Cold-War.

- The American people have more than enough internal capability to develop and spread ridiculous conspiracy theories without the help of foreign governments.

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[–] rogueforte 9 years ago

I wasn't really suggesting that there was a specific Soviet plot to plant the seeds of a rumor in the US that the moon landing was a hoax. Moreover, I was thinking along the lines of some enterprising Americans having picked up on the internal Soviet propaganda that was released within their borders and using that information to generate and spread their own conspiracy theories.

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[–] Lunchbox-3 9 years ago

Probably a combination of those. After Roswell, JFK and Tricky Dick there is no trust left in America. We all assume the worst of our elected officials and we are susceptible to conspiracy theories.

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[–] ib011f9545i 9 years ago

British person here,I don't think there are that many British people who believe the moon landing were fake,but that is just my view,it might that there are lots of them and I just don't talk to them?

I recently watched a great BBC documentary about the father of the Soviet space programme and all it achieved.
Can't recall the title right now.

The message of the documentary was that of course the USA landed on the moon but the Soviet/Russian record in space is not always given the credit it deserves (first space flight.first space walk,space stations,cheaper supply missions).

I am not an expert on the subject but as a child of the 1960s I have always the space race fascinating.
So although I know it is fact I always loved this film.

I recall the BBC showing the funeral of the Soviet cosmonauts who died on reentry.

The was a mini series called THE SPACE RACE a few years ago that covered both sides of the story (US and USSR).

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[–] slay-er 9 years ago

first space flight.first space walk,space stations,cheaper supply missions

First Moon and Mars rovers too and first to bring Moon sand to Earth. Death of the Soviet top engineer (Korolev) hurt Moon program a lot. And without Germans Americans wouldn't be able to compete with the Russians so effectively.

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[–] boutetr 9 years ago

....and first to bring Moon sand to Earth.

Apollo 11 was the first to bring back a lunar sample. The Soviet Luna 16 was the first robotic mission to return a sample in Sept 1970.

And without Germans Americans wouldn't be able to compete with the Russians so effectively.

No doubt they were a big help. It's worth pointing out however that it was the Americans who decided to go ahead with full-up testing which was a totally opposite to the way the German scientist wanted to proceed.

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[–] pjmcgill142 9 years ago

It's worth pointing out however that it was the Americans who decided to go ahead with full-up testing which was a totally opposite to the way the German scientist wanted to proceed.

Specifically, George Mueller. He had to convince quite a few of his fellow American managers and engineers as well as Von Braun's people. Regardless, it was his ramming home of 'all up testing' that got Kennedy's goal done and dusted 'before this decade (was) out.'

Many reasonably believe NASA had well and truly overtaken the Russian program by the end of 1965. Effective rendezvous techniques in particular were a good indicator of where things stood.

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[–] Butteoid 9 years ago

As an American who grew up during the Space Race, the punch in the gut that Sputnik caused on these shores is not to be under-estimated. The reaction to the Soviet triumph probably helped a young JFK to get elected in a close race and the revolution it caused in American education extended down to every high school in the country.
Both countries needed to put a positive spin on the technology developed to build thousands of ICBM nuclear delivery vehicles and a race to the moon served that purpose. It got kicked into even higher gear after JFK's murder because it was something the nation could do for a dead president -- keep his promise.
The fickle nature of Americans caused us to lose interest and NASA only stayed alive as a jobs program and today we rely on Russian heavy-lift rockets to get our people to the International Space Station while the private sector gears up (still relying on taxpayer dollars). NASA's sterling reputation was lost with the Challenger and the Columbia, and if you think the disasters are over, wait until we try to send people to Mars.

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[–] pjmcgill142 9 years ago

...the punch in the gut that Sputnik caused on these shores is not to be under-estimated.

Your comment reminded me of one terrific documentary by Robert Stone, Satellite Sky. It opens with the US media wetting themselves over the launch of Sputnik. Sure, it's not the most balanced of documentaries, but it really paints a picture of a country facing impending Armageddon!

It has the Name That Tune episode with John Glenn. He cracked me up with his answer about taking careful, incremental steps for the trip to the moon. "You want to make sure you get there?" interrupted the interviewer... "Well, sure, but I really want to make sure we get back!" The film of Nixon's discomfort talking to Khrushchev was cringing. Especially when he compared US televisions to Russian rockets...

The public interviews: Joe Citizen was monumentally pi55ed off that a foreign nation, let alone an 'enemy nation' got into space first.

The fickle nature of Americans caused us to lose interest and NASA...

It was a fortuitous collection of circumstances that allowed the moon landing. Arguably the most impressive engineering project of the 20th century. And NASA's budget has been steadily falling, with just a few boosts here and there, since 1966. I think if NASA's current budget was moved over to defense, the military wouldn't even notice.

NASA's sterling reputation was lost with the Challenger and the Columbia, and if you think the disasters are over, wait until we try to send people to Mars.

Budget constraints and more than a little hubris contributed to those terrible days. Call me crazy, but I don't think NASA will have a big say in any manned missions to Mars.

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[–] jdown-1 9 years ago

I was a 13-year-old, growing up in TN, when the Russians launched Sputnik. I well remember one summer, night-fishing with my buddies, and watching it cross the sky (we may actually have been seeing one of its booster rockets that went into orbit itself???). Later that night I came home and just before going to bed, went outside and ...there was Sputnik again, having completed an orbit of the earth.

I don't remember being angry or upset that the Russians had done it first - just impressed that humans could do something like that. To me it was a remarkable achievement.

Tout homme a deux pays, le sien et puis la France.

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[–] pjmcgill142 9 years ago

Later that night I came home and just before going to bed, went outside and ...there was Sputnik again, having completed an orbit of the earth.

Great anecdote. I still go out to watch the ISS go over, but I have this thing called internet to tell me when to go out into the dark and exactly where to look.

To watch the first man made satellite flying over... wow!

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[–] Blueghost 9 years ago

As I responded to the first response on this thread, the big fear was a strategic one. Soviet leadership demonstrated that even though we were allies in the Second World War, that they wanted to expand their brand of communism as well as protect themselves from another European or World wide global conflict.

We in the US saw the creation of a strategic buffer in Europe and effectively annexing a portion of the Korean peninsula as Soviet expansion. To continue with our containment policy it was suggested and feared that we would need to take the high ground against Soviet Russia.

The Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs were created as stepping stone projects to expand our space capability, with the ultimate goal of being a permanent presence on the moon; possibly an armed base. That proved way too expensive, and so the technological achievement was seen both as a national boost and a wagging finger to Soviet Russia's military leadership.

Did it work? Well, we got them to sign a treaty banning weapons in space (neither side has really held to the treaty, from what I understand), and helped focus space expansion as a scientific and civilian oriented exercise. And I think that's a good thing.

So ultimately it was a test of which nation could do the most to get there, but there was a military underpinning to it. And, for what it's worth, I think the Soviets were right in sending robots; cheaper, easier to maintain and order around, and lighter. That verse sending live crew which needs air, food, water, and a way to dump waste.

Still, I'm glad Armstrong and the rest set foot there.

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[–] pjmcgill142 9 years ago

And, for what it's worth, I think the Soviets were right in sending robots; cheaper, easier to maintain and order around, and lighter.

I'm not sure what Russia spent on their unmanned probes. I believe they returned something like 370 grams of moon via these probes. I'm curious as to which cost more (grams/dollar); Russia's 370 grams or the US' 300 odd kilograms. I'm sure Russia was more economical, but how far does 370 grams go?

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[–] Blueghost 9 years ago

It's an interesting question. Maybe they didn't see much value in moon rocks, so didn't opt try and get more.

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[–] ragusa11 8 years ago

There was one thing they were ahead of all other countries and that were remote rovers. The Soviet's attempted a landing before Apollo of a remote rover but it crashed into the moon. The irony is once the Berlin Wall fell with the Soviet Bloc the US ended up hiring a lot of their scientist. The Mars rovers were based on their design.

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