MovieChat Forums > The Keep (1983) Discussion > Huh??

Huh??

posted 16 years ago by marathonman666
22 replies | jump to latest

Alright, before saying anything, let me say that I am a huge, HUGE Michael Mann fan. I've seen/owned/adored pretty much every movie he's produced, and I think he's one of the most overlooked and consistently good directors we have working today. That said, I just watched The Keep for the first time.

Wow, what a bad film.

Now I don't mean to call you guys out, but I'm guessing that a big percentage of Keep fans are Michael Mann fanboys, the ones who believe that to really appreciate an artist, they have to appreciate every piece of work they have ever done (ie not criticize it). Now I don't know the backstory behind it, it's possible maybe the studios made Mann do things with the film he didn't want to do, after all he wasn't really a huge name on the scene in 1983. I'm also not one who complains that a film is 'dated' or 'corny,' as I try to put myself in the mindset of a 1983 viewer. But still, many things were just glossed over, chopped, and didn't do a whole lot for the movie. Scott Glenn's character is maybe the most underdeveloped and underused protagonist I've seen in a film, and the sex scene is just completely out of left field (and yes, I understood why it was there, I just don't agree with it being there). The ending was far too quick and for a horror movie like this, it leaves too much for the audiences' assumptions. I haven't read the book, I don't really plan on it, and yes I understand that a longer cut exists, but for someone who just watched the theatrical edit, I was far from impressed. Sorry, but thank goodness Mann's best work was ahead of him.

[–] nessie117-1 16 years ago

It's far from a perfect film, and yes Mann's best work was in the future at this point.

There are many appealing things that I find in this movie. First being the soundtrack, which is one of the greatest soundtracks of all time. Rich in atmosphere and tension. Tangerine Dream really out did themselves with this score.

The second being the cinematography. Visually this film I thought was awe inspiring, I love the opening with the Nazi troop comes into the Romanian town. Also when the soldiers remove the silver cross, and we are shown what lies within the keep.

Though while I'll praise the film for multiple elements, there are points where it does fall flat. The book is phenomenal, and even though you say you don't plan on reading the book I highly recommend it. It's a quick read, and very creepy.

"Flossing? Where did I get Munson from?" - Ish, Kingpin

[–] Goosehoundv2 16 years ago

Great post... You just mentioned all the good points of the film.. The book is fantastic.

"That gentleman has placed a deposit on this meat.. No.. a monetary deposit hahaha!"

[–] cult_classics 16 years ago

Now I don't mean to call you guys out, but I'm guessing that a big percentage of Keep fans are Michael Mann fanboys, the ones who believe that to really appreciate an artist, they have to appreciate every piece of work they have ever done (ie not criticize it).

I don't think half of the fans of this film even know it was a Michael Mann film to begin with.
I remember liking it from the time it first came out. I had no idea the guy from Miami Vice was behind it. I like it because i like great movies, plain and simple.

"Confess quickly! If you hold out too long you could jeopardize your credit rating."

[–] geneariani 16 years ago

I did not know who Michael Mann was when I saw this film and loved it and watching his subsequent works I am amazed he could have directed this excellent film.

[–] phil-1209 16 years ago

I didn't know it was Mann either. I guess you're either into the film or not. I personally thought it was fantastic, better than Heat or Thief, believe it or not.

I loved the soundtrack, the story, the cinematography, and the acting. Even the somewhat challenged special effects are rather effective.

Again, that's just me, but everyone I've shown it to, loves it and would like to get a copy. Like Tremors or Rocky Horror, I think it could be a rather big cult classic if it were just promoted a bit more.

Has anyone ever found out why it was canceled? I've heard everything from Tangerene dream not willing to release their rights to Michael Mann not liking it and therefore nixing the release. The studio released it on VHS and laserdisc so I can't believe there isn't enough interest to do a DVD.

I wish Criterion would pick it up. They could do an amazing job if they're allowed to.

[–] zarathustra2k1 14 years ago

Michael who? I love The Keep.

OP = dildo? You decide...

I have opinions of my own, but I don't always agree with them - George Bush

[–] wildfire160 12 years ago

I had no idea it was a Mann film myself i only came to it because of the book

"Nee ta ma duh tyen-shia suo-yo duh run doh gai si"

[–] puirt-a-beul 15 years ago

I don't disagree with you, marathonman. I'm just watching this for the first time, and am thinking "The guy who made Collateral and Heat made this???" It's got some nice elements, but overall it's a crap film.

But maybe I'm not judging it fairly. Yes, I've been impressed by many of Mann's films, but I'm watching it mostly because I really enjoyed the book it was based on. I love F Paul Wilson's books, especially the ones that became a sequence now known as "The Adversary Cycle". "The Keep" was the first, and I really recommend reading it if you like chilly horror stories; it was followed by five other books that were all really stand-alone novels, until at some point it dawned on Wilson how they could be interwoven and could be seen as different facets of the one story arc. It was a clever bit of invention, and the end result really works well as an epic Good vs Evil story that's not moralistic or religious in any way.

I agree with you about Scott Glen's character; he's deliberately left a little enigmatic in the book, too, but he's far better drawn and less of a cipher than Mann made him out to be. (And what was with that anti-climactic final confrontation? It was like he just turned some Holy Firehose on the bad guy, and they both got washed away. Bahhh!!!)

The story may not be a genre that appeals to you -- I can't know, of course. But if you like that kind of novel, I recommend you give "The Keep" a read. It's a far better story than Mann managed to convey.

You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

[–] rich-944 15 years ago

Another vote here for the successful elements being soundtrack, cinematography, and atmosphere. I really wouldn't hesitate to add acting to this list as well. Jurgen Prochnow and Gabriel Byrne put in strong performances. Jurgen is one of my favourite actors, and I'll always watch anything with him in it. Once again he plays a character who reminds us that not every German who served his country in WWII was 'Nazified'.

Like the orginal (haven't seen the remake yet)version of The Fog, this film is just plain creepy and foreboding. This in no small part thanks to a fantastic soundtrack. Like others, I hadn't made the correlation between Michael Mann and his other works.

Just have to sit back and enjoy the atmosphere and don't take the movie that seriously. lol

[–] karym6 15 years ago

the only really disappointing thing with this film is that it doesnt really follow the story in the book.

Now, I know that you cannot always translate the book into film directly, but the basic framework of the story in the book is good enough. I didnt like either of the endings for the film, whilst the end of the book was actually quite exciting.

I wonder whether there is a directors cut lurking somewhere? As to direction, you can definitely tell this is a Michael Mann film

[–] franzkabuki 15 years ago

It sure is a weird f-cker and unfortunately not in the best of ways - the story is told with such ludicrous bombast and dead-seriously hammy performances that despite all the atmosphere Mann is occasionally able to create, it´s just pretty silly. I´m also not sure that an electronic score - which in certain scenes does work well - was generally a wise choice for a film awash with Wehrmacht and SS. The WW 2 period is not easily associated with Tangerine Dream and it creates a very jarring effect. Also, The Good Soldier vs The Bad Nazi stuff and the resulting rhetoric are pretty heavy-handed. All in all, while Mann´s authorship is recognisible, it´s uneven and very broadly blocked out - even more so than the inarguably over the top territory might call for. Clearly the weakest of the 8 Mann pictures I´ve seen - and the only failure. 5/10.

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

[–] ConstructionSiteHackman 14 years ago

Man, guess theres no room for f-cking crazy off the wall flicks with you literal types. I loved this because it was so opposite from what I was expecting from a Micheal Mann flick. He's usually pretty restrained and methodical. This to me was way more entertaining than Collateral or Public Enemies, and better looking in it's own way too. I'm not even gonna mention Miami Vice (about as boring as a movie can get).

Spoilers (seriously, don't read this if you haven't seen it)

I like that it was scatterbrained and had a herky jerky flow. This movie had everything. Scott Glenn looking crazy as s--- with purple eyes riding a motorcycle through Europe. Some demon that takes on a new form everytime you see him and he's blowing up nazis and rescuing rape victims, with his brain glowing. Gabriel Byrne as a nazi with a terrible haircut and an Irish accent. Ian McKellen as an unintelligible old man. Conversations between the unintelligible old man and the also unintelligible demon. And Tangerine Dream doing whatever the hell they feel like the whole time.

I had no idea what this was gonna be when I popped it on. It's definitely not a horror movie, but I don't give a crap what some suit tries to market it as. It reminded me a little of Alien, a little of Big Trouble in Little China. It was just nutty as hell. I wish more people would enjoy stuff that doesn't always make sense so the people who think and create like this would have more opportunity to do so. I don't even go to the movies anymore because it's the same boring ass movie over and over. They all look exactly alike and have the same cadence. I had no clue where this thing was going and was thankful.

[–] PoppyTransfusion 12 years ago

This movie had everything. Scott Glenn looking crazy as s--- with purple eyes riding a motorcycle through Europe. Some demon that takes on a new form everytime you see him and he's blowing up nazis and rescuing rape victims, with his brain glowing. Gabriel Byrne as a nazi with a terrible haircut and an Irish accent. Ian McKellen as an unintelligible old man. Conversations between the unintelligible old man and the also unintelligible demon. And Tangerine Dream doing whatever the hell they feel like the whole time.

This whole section made me and it's a pretty good way of describing things as well!!

Fatima had a fetish for a wiggle in her scoot

[–] user-971-989764 14 years ago

I have not seen Mann's other movies, however I strongly believe that this is his best film. Now yea I cannot judge it without seeing the other movies, but I have a feeling his other movies are not quite like this and that this is my favorite movie of his. But as A new fan of Mann I will provide a more sure response after seeing the rest of his movies. However, like I said, I don't think any of his other movies would compare to how good this movie is.

[–] NateWatchesCoolMovies 14 years ago

you're totally right, user 971, The Keep is his best by a longshot. the only two that even come close to the raw ambient
energy and emotional storytelling are Heat & The Last Of The Mohicans. as far as his body of work is concerned, there is nothing
quite like The Keep in terms of unique-ness and power, but try telling that to all the haters, and let me tell you, they are
vast in number lol. sad, really...

"Animals are beasts, but Men are Monsters..."

[–] user-971-989764 14 years ago

Cool, I am glad someone agrees with me.

Not sure why my username is all those numbers, it makes me feel like a robot or something. I think its cause I'm logging in with facebook.

Anyway, I thank you for the comparison, it will help guide me on which movie to watch next, of course, after I watch The Keep a few more times first, haha.

I don't know why people would hate this movie, the only real reason I can think of is that they do not understand it on that certain 'occult' level. Or they do not like it for the reason it may be viewed as a sort of revealing movie. A view on darkness and light that is so real yet mysterious.

I have to admit though, the only bad thing about this movie, which I am surprised I find myself saying, I wish the quality of the audio was a little better. In some parts it is harder to hear but that is not only due to the audio quality, but also because I am not used to the accent used by some of the characters in the movie. The audio quality is by no means horrible or wretched, but it is not the crisp audio I am used to. In the grand scale the audio quality is not a big deal and does not deter away from the brilliance of this piece.

[–] dan-508 14 years ago

I like about half of Mann's movies, can't stand the other half, and think The Keep is a moody, surreal, extremely fun film.

And yeah, I was watching it with a big Michael Mann fan and she didn't even know it was Mann's film until I told her (we started watching after the beginning). So, can't say I agree with your points.

[–] user-971-989764 14 years ago

To each his or her own. It's like me with musicians and other artists as well for me at least. In most cases the artists most 'popular' work is not my favorite, and I find their other works, or earlier works are my favorites, but that is just me. I find this to be the case in most artists and works that I love the most. I am a big fan of what I refer to as occult type movies, rare movies, or underground movies, and I strongly believe this is one of them. However just because I think it is doesn't mean it is, but to me it has a lot of secret meaning in it. Sorta like a big metaphor for what is really happening in the world today.

[–] balistik94 13 years ago

I totally agree with the OP. Mann is my favorite director of all time and I love every single movie he's made except this one. I don't understand how he could make something so bad, I heard the producers took over and chopped up the film when it got over the budget but still, it doesn't explain the bad writing and acting. It doesn't even feel like a Michael Mann film, I just can't wrap my head around it..

[–] antonymartin 12 years ago

Couldn't disagree with you or the OP more - a superb, atmospheric film. Much, much better than Public Enemies and Miami Vice.

[–] maitre_mechant 12 years ago

To each his own. I notice that people who like this film don't like the rest of Mann's filmography and vice versa, maybe it's a sign that it doesn't fit with his other films and that's why some of us reject it.

Also I heard that Mann is not very proud of the film and pretty much disowned it.

[–] wildfire160 12 years ago

there are a lot of problems with this film partly due to how faithful it is to the original novel by F Paul Wilson(one of my fav writers) ..your never really given the context of the battle between Radu Molasar and Scotts character Glaeken Trismegestus of just how long they were fighting and why Scott waited to kill him and because of this the film feels rushed and uneven ......either Mann should have put more of their backstory into the film or removed Scotts character altogether

"Nee ta ma duh tyen-shia suo-yo duh run doh gai si"