Here's what I don't understand. The "Brainstorm" machine records experiences through information fed by brainwaves right? Well when whats her face dies, how could it continue to record her afterlife experiences?
share[deleted]
No coherent thought.
shareBecause of the idea that the body is a vessel for the soul. The body allows to soul or spirit to inhabit this physical reality. Ultimately, once your soul leaves your body (i.e. death), the body becomes nothing more than a shell. For a brief time while the body is dying, the soul has not yet separated. Many thousands of people have reported near death experiences. At the point at which these experiences occur, the body is technically dead. It is noteworthy to mention that it is at this point before the lack of oxygen begins causing brain damage, that a person can be resuscitated, assuming that the body is still capable of supporting life.
Given that people have been resuscitated up to an hour or more in some circumstances, it stands to reason that the connection of the soul to the body is not severed instantaneously. One might further surmise that the connection to the soul (which is not corporeal, but rather ethereal), is like a string or rubber band, in that there are conditions in which soul can leave the body. The plane in which the soul exists may not have the same physical limitations of proximity or distance. This is a very fundamental way of looking at the the unknown outside of our physical universe which we know exists, but are unable to prove. It has a parallel in quantum physics.
It is by this mechanism that the movie attempts to tackle the idea of what might happen when you die, which is a fascinating topic because it one of the last unconquered frontiers which everybody must eventually traverse.
To s firestone: your explanation about the intent of the filmmaker is good. But the long explanation about the "plane" of souls and then the reference to quantum physics out of the blue wasn't necessary! As a scientist with a physics background, I have to shake my head at how badly quantum physics terminology is misused in the name of pseudoscience and just plain nonsense. The reason is clear: it's one of the only branches of science that blow all intuition right out of the water, but it's still science and not just poetry or guesswork.
For the record: out of body experiences due to near-death are obviously hard to understand perfectly for obvious reasons, but we certainly have some pretty good ideas of what's probably going on in these cases. And as nice as the idea sounds, there's no reason to think we might actually have souls, much less that they have anything to do with quantum physics!
That said, the idea of a soul is a powerful myth, and a beautiful one - and the film's ending FX are pretty nice considering it was made so long ago.
Powerful myth, huh? Prove to me with your science that there are NOT things beyond our comprehension. Electricity existed long before we were able to discover and use it - but it being beyond our scope of comprehension before then did not make it NOT exist.
If they're beyond your comprehension, then how can you comprehend it? You can't just make up some nonsense about a 'soul' and say 'prove it doesn't exist!' If you think it's true, then it's up to you to prove it does exist. I can just as easily say, "I believe there is a ceramic teapot orbiting Saturn. Prove to me there isn't!"
There has never been a scintilla of proof of any non-corporeal element to life. Why would you believe there is? Simply because you want it to be? Because it's not from the evidence. There is none.
There have many people who reported seeing "something" when they have near-death experiences. To date, no one has reported seeing a teapot orbiting Saturn.
No one has any obligation to prove anything exists. If you want to find out it is there, you will find a way and whatever that reality is will be real to you. If enough people want to know, then they'll seek it, discover for themselves and share it with the world. But do not try to discredit those who have experienced things as if they didn't experience anything just because you haven't. All the logic and science in the world does not disprove the existence of a soul. Plus, science, or rather "man's version of how Nature works," changes faster than the direction of the wind. One day the scientists say "This is how things work!" Then sometime later, "No, wait scratch that. We have conducted NEW research and now we know that THIS is how it works." Then later on, "Aw wait a moment, people. We have found a NEW thing that tells us THIS, so forget everything you learned previously" and on and on...
Science and all of its $20 words is still man's point of view on things at the end of the day and is not 100%, so why fully trust it?
Plenty of people have come back from being clincally dead, and told us there is nothing on the 'otherside'
I know it is the belief of the religious wackjobs to make the passage to death easier for them by claiming an 'afterlife'
Until people start to accept we are flesh and blood organic beings and nothing more, then these so-called debates will rage on.
So a small subsection of western thought is right while most of humanity in the entire planet is wrong & a wackjob? How arrogant.
shareI hate to tell you this, but if we assume there is one true religion (and that hasn't been proven yet). Then everyone who believes in the other 99% of religions is wrong. Therefore a small subsection of humanity would be right and the rest would be wrong. Its a simple easily provable fact.
shareWho said there is one true religion? Religion is merely an organized body of beliefs, that small subsection that you claim to be all knowing and 100% correct is a religion in itself. I don't know why you fundamentalists on whatever camp have to be so close minded and force your religion on others.
shareYou are a speck of nothing in a universe without end. You can say that without being religious. That's the best you can come up with?
shareSo you know everything. Wow and I thought I was arrogant
This. I've been getting into anthropology lately & find it, as well as genetic & fossil/artifact studies rather unreliable at this point in time. Every time a new paper comes out, one has to be very cautious because another paper/work may disprove it. In the end, science is limited because its basis is our very own comprehension & limitations.
shareThere have many people who reported seeing "something" when they have near-death experiences. To date, no one has reported seeing a teapot orbiting Saturn.
[deleted]
Your argument is all over the place-almost like a bunch of sentences strung together.
"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it." Norman Maclean
So a small subsection of western thought is right while most of humanity in the entire planet is wrong & a wackjob? How arrogant.
thephaseshift^
Given your stated background, do you have any informed opinion about the theory of 'quantum consciousness' put forth by (among others) Stuart Hameroff M.D., Professor Emeritus at the Departments of Anesthesiology and Psychology, and Director of the Center for Consciousness Studies, at the University of Arizona?
An informal discussion of a portion of his theory can be found at:
http://dailygrail.com/Interviews/2005/1/Quantum-Mind-Stuart-Hameroff
and, one of his many published papers can be found at:
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/orchOR.html
Dr. Hameroff briefly states in response to a question about near death and out-of-body experiences: "Under normal circumstances consciousness occurs in the fundamental level of spacetime geometry confined in the brain. But when the metabolism driving quantum coherence (in microtubules) is lost, the quantum information leaks out to the spacetime geometry in the universe at large. Being holographic and entangled it doesnt dissipate. Hence consciousness (or dream-like subconsciousness) can persist."
However, this is a rather informal response by Dr. Hameroff and more detailed explanations can be found in his published papers.
Thanks!
"I can't stand a naked light bulb, any more than..a rude remark or a vulgar action" Blanche DuBois
It's an arrogant fallacy propagated by scientists that science itself philosophizes or simply "knows" about these things. I believe you were right when you said this other blogger rather desperately attempted to answer everything and tie it all together under quantum realities. But the amusing fact is that you (and I've seen this time and again in college when the professor is both annoyed and amused that a student should be as stubborn as he is), whether with less distinction or no, does the same thing.
shareIncorrigibleAestheticism^
"It's an arrogant fallacy propagated by scientists that science itself philosophizes or simply "knows" about these things. I believe you were right when you said this other blogger rather desperately attempted to answer everything and tie it all together under quantum realities. But the amusing fact is that you (and I've seen this time and again in college when the professor is both annoyed and amused that a student should be as stubborn as he is), whether with less distinction or no, does the same thing."
I'm sorry...as this was hooked directly onto my reply and with no direct reference to which post you are replying to, is the 'you' doing 'the same thing' remark meant for me?
If so, I wasn't making any case either way (?)
I was simply asking someone who apparently knows more than I do about a particular subject (re: the content of the references I posted) and his opinion because I don't have enough background in the area to judge those works.
Sorry I am responding over a year later...I just went back through some of my old posts and saw this.
"I will not go gently onto a shelf, degutted, to become a non-book." ~ Bradbury
The way I interpreted the scene was that the recording captured the 'exit strategy' of the consciousness from the body. While it literally captured Fletcher's death it could be used to recreate the process in the viewer. That is why most of the 'trip' that Walken experienced occured after the recording was over. Viewing/taking part in Louise's "exit" allowed Walken to leave his body as well. He effectively 'crossed over', but because his physical body was still functional and because Wood called for him to return.
So in the simplest terms, that recording included a trigger to separate your conscious self and pass over to the other side.
The short answer is, it's a sci-fi movie; leave your brain at home and enjoy the ride.
A longer answer would be that Brace was experiencing what his colleague was going through DURING her death, not after she died. Remember, when the machine had stopped playing, Brace was still seeing images of the after-life, meaning he was actually dying. His ex-wife brought him back by continually yelling his name.
I would actually like to see this movie remade, but with a different turn of events. I want to see Brace actually seeing his colleague going to hell, with him being brought back in terror.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
My guess is that it seemed like minutes to us but it could have been only a few moments to her.
shareI suppose it depends on what exactly one believes "happens" at the time of death. Obviously, this particular screenwriter, Bruce Joel Rubin, sees multi-colored lights swirling around to James Horner music...
Mr. Rubin has a penchant for odd-dimensional topics, he wrote Ghost, Jacob's Ladder and The Time Traveller's Wife (among others.)
This is where I have to suspend my disbelief. That's all I have to say. I didn't particularly like the after-death recording theme because it ties in to religion. But I guess without it there simply wouldn't be a movie. I liked the idea that he seemed to be able to watch everything that ever happened in her life, and hoped this would bring some new information to him that would further the rest of the plot.
shareHere's what I don't understand. The "Brainstorm" machine records experiences through information fed by brainwaves right? Well when whats her face dies, how could it continue to record her afterlife experiences?
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When the heart & lungs stop beating & breathing, brain activity can continue for a time. People are often revived with CPR and/or defib, and how often do we read about accounts "the bright light," or "my life passing before my eyes" etc.?
In the flick, the machine was recording her brainwaves, and what we see is the filmmaker's interpretation of what that might be.
They do show a shot of the monitor when the waves cease and go to flatlines, so that would be brain death and the end of the recording, and this would be minutes after cardiac arrest and last breath.
I am a little gratified to see that people on this post are debating the "what happens when you die" element to this film. Ironically, I looked it up because of news stories regarding Natalie Wood possibly being killed by actions by Robert Wagner. If you want to know what happens when you die, I can guarantee one thing; We will find out sometime. The intent of the film is somewhat irrelevant to this line of discussion. If you want to believe angels sing and trumpets sound, believe it. If you are someone such as myself, who does not believe anything happens other than your existence comes to an end, believe it. One of these actually happens. Let me know which one is real will you, like Flanders on The Simpsons I may want to donate to a few different churches to hedge my bets. Personally, I think that humans view themselves to have "souls" or whatever, to assuage the ultimate fear, dying. If you do not fear death I think you are stupid. You do not have a soul any more than a pine tree or dirty diaper has a soul. You die, you end. Look at the dirt and soil under your feet. There are dead people in there somewhere. That, is what became of them. I do not speak from authority, as I have at least so far, not died. Live your life, it is the only one you have. Fearing death will not make you live another life in the future. Fearing death will not put you in some magical place that does not exist when you pass. We exist now because our parents had sex. The supposition that we somehow continue to exist in a different state after we die, is a result of a psychological mechanism in our biology that does not want to die, that causes us to want to reproduce, and nothing more. The crude philosophical nonsense perpetuated by religious/spiritual people may be comforting but it simply is not based on fact. If you want to think that some random group of words collected in a heavily edited text written thousands of years ago tells you what happens when you die, go for it. It is after all, so much better than reality. Worry about your life, not your death. The former, is the only one you will ever have. No matter what you think or say, this FACT, will not change.
shareWell, I am a person that knows I will survive physical death.
No can't prove it. There is NO lock on space/time preventing anyone from knowing it. And it does not require a belief in God/s.
The amusing nature of the variety of comments about this subject is the mystery of consciousness.
The ticket to entry of this experience is being a scientist and having courage to find out for ones self :D
Speaking only for myself I speak from direct experience.
Others will says its just a delusion which is fine people do that kind of thing :)
Words are not their meanings, information is non-physical, photons have no mass.
That is because they are information.
jamesdeloss your theory makes no sense.
if we die, we end, cease to exist.
Then what is the point of life? the point of the universe? we are completely meaningless, we're born, then we die. lol. meaningless.