Why does Rocky call himself a liar? - Rocky III (1982) Discussion

[–] Balboasaurus 10 years ago

I've wondered about this myself. It's an interesting choice of a word. Perhaps, fraud would have been a better word?

Mickey's confession about having hand-picked his opponents, as well as Clubber'staunting messed with his confidence. Add to that the fact that he didn't put much effort into his training for the first fight. He doesn't feel like a true champion, and to prove a point, decided to fight a rude boxer, who instigated a brawl in the hallway before the fight, thus aggravating Mickey's health condition and causing his death. I really do like how Adrian set straight, though. Mickey was only protecting him, and it was his choice not to go to the hospital.

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[–] tlw013-1 10 years ago

All very true but Rocky himself had very little to do with any of it.

Rocky's actions:

1) Agreed to fight Clubber against Mickey's wishes.

2) Failed to take his training seriously despite Mickey's dire warnings.

Neither of these make Rocky a liar.

The only theory I've ever been able to come up with is that Rocky let Mick believe he had won the fight against Clubber. He didn't lie. He told the truth but Mick misinterpreted it and felt confident in his faith in Rocky again. Perhaps that allowed Mick to feel he could safely "let go" and die?

I dunno.

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[–] Balboasaurus 10 years ago

You're right. If anything, that allowed Mickey to go happily. Rocky is suffering from Peter Parker syndrome.

😃

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[–] tlw013-1 10 years ago

That could very well be it, but it's vague. Rocky didn't lie, but if he feels like he misled Mick, and Mick went happily, why feel guilty? Or is it more tht Rocky now feels lost and alone at losing his mentor and his lament was more based on selfishness rather than guilt?

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[–] brightmidnight71 10 years ago

its simply because he learned that Mickey set up his opponents so he'd have an easy go of it. Even though it wasn't Rocky's fault, he won't blame Mickey so he puts it all on himself. If anything, Rocky is honest to a fault and he feels like he didn't earn the respect he's gotten because a lot of it was based on victories that were a bit of a fraud.

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[–] DjokerFan 9 years ago

Not for one second do I think that Mick believed Rocky when he said he defeated Clubber. Mick knew that Rocky was lying right through his teeth but also knew he only had a few more seconds to live so he chose to let his final dying words be "I love you kid" instead of "You're so full of *beep* Mick knew all along that Rocky was lying for the sake of keeping him comfortable and just went along with it.

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[–] melco92 10 years ago

I watched this last night and this is how I took it: Rocky was a "liar" because of all the "fixed" fights. "And because of that, Mickey ain't here no more." Rocky felt he had to fight Clubber, a real fighter, to make up for that, and consequently, drag Mickey along with him. Which was too much for Mickey and led to his death.

Had Rocky not been fighting set-ups, he wouldn't have had to fight Clubber, and Mickey might have lived longer.

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[–] tlw013-1 10 years ago

Do you really think Rocky would've felt responsible for those fights though? He didn't know. He was shocked to learn of it. He felt he needed redemption but Mickey did tell him they were hand picked, not set ups.

The only thing that comes close for me to explaining is him misleading Mickey on his deathbed, letting Mickey die believing he'd won his first fight against Clubber.

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[–] Balboasaurus 10 years ago

Another possibility is that he calls himself a liar because he didn't take his training seriously as he said he would, as you pointed out. "Come on, Mick. I'll live at the gym." We know that he didn't, and Mickey was not happy at all with that "house of ill repute" Rocky chose as his training base.

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[–] tlw013-1 10 years ago

A very good point. That part of the film always bothered me. Rocky never struck me as the kind not to take Mickey seriously.

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[–] Balboasaurus 10 years ago

It occurs to me that Rocky may not have tried so hard in one of title-defense fights, and Mickey's admission that he had hand-picked his opponents only contributed to him losing his confidence. Even if he did try his best, knowing that Mickey chose opponents who didn't stand a chance against him really messed with his mind.

I don't know. Those of us who have commented on the OP seem to have different interpretations, and maybe only Rock knows.

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[–] tlw013-1 10 years ago

I am the OP and appreciate everyone weighing in. It's always bothered me and getting different impressions is why I posted it in the first place.

If there's one question I could ask Stallone if I had the chance....

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[–] Balboasaurus 10 years ago

tlw013-1, when I wrote OP, I meant original post rather than original poster. It was not my intention to come off as rude. It's a real shame that there are no director/crew commentaries for any of the other Rocky movies except Rocky and Rocky Balboa; Sly is really good at explaining his process for some scenes, and what he wanted to convey.

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[–] tlw013-1 10 years ago

I didn't take anything you said as rude, at all. Just was conveying that you were speaking to the original author if you weren't aware of it.

I do agree it's a shame that there's no commentary, although I admit I've neglected to check my new Blu Ray box set to confirm.

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[–] speccyboy 10 years ago

I think this is the chapter of the series where Rocky starts to question his life, both as a boxer and as a human being - this theme of self-doubt and internal conflict would continue into Rocky 4, 5 and 6 (Balboa).

Rocky considers himself a liar because he didn't tell Mickey the whole truth about the first fight (and the loss of his title). I think "deceiver" may have been a better term here. He could also consider himself a liar because he recently found out about Mickey's hand-chosen opponents, which made him doubt his confidence. That, combined with the loss of his title and Mickey dying seriously put a strain on his confidence... and it seems like he doesn't recover from it completely, not even in the sequels.

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[–] tlw013-1 10 years ago

I can agree with your explanation for the "lie", but not the rest of it. At least, not as it follows into future films. In my eyes, Rocky came out of the end of part 3 a different person regarding confidence. He was confident enough to drop Apollo's fighting/training and return to his own way. He was confident enough to challenge an opponent who just killed his best friend and do so knowing he, too, could die, but did so without serious fear (even though just the thought of a rematch beating from Clubber originally terrified him). He was confident enough to declare he didn't need sparring anymore for his training against Drago as well. In 5, he challenged Gunn without hesitation, having really been out of the exercise loop for a year or more. In 6, he decided to go at it again after being out of the ring for at least a decade, choosing to match up with the champion over thirty years his junior.

Confidence? The man had plenty after the ending of part 3. More so than at any time before. He finally believed in himself.

I don't need no stinking signature!

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[–] jefgg 9 years ago

Rocky didn't have the greatest vocabulary.

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[–] tlw013-1 9 years ago

True, but even he knows what a liar is. You think it was a slip of the tongue instead? What do you think he meant to say?

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[–] Jeff0015 9 years ago

I think his choice of the word was to use a very broad synonym for fraud, and also, in his self-loathing, to direct more personal responsibility.

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[–] tlw013-1 9 years ago

I think that's a valid perspective.

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[–] jsl_99 9 years ago

The only thing I can think of is maybe because Rocky convinced Mick he still had what it took to beat a fighter like Clubber when in reality he had no chance. Well at least no chance until Apollo steps in. There are probably a few different ways of interpreting the liar statement.

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[–] tlw013-1 9 years ago

It always seemed to me Rocky really believed he could take Clubber down.

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[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] stevenackerman69 9 years ago

In that argument, he is letting out what he is feeling. He is afraid now because of what Clubber did to him, he is also upset and blames himself for Mickey's death, because if he hadn't asked Mickey to train him for the fight with Clubber, he wouldn't have had the heart attack that night that killed him. He also was upset with Mickey handpicking his opponents so he never felt that he really had the title. To him, those opponents weren't real opponents to him if Mickey did that. Of course, I don't think Mickey just handpicked anyone. As Mickey said himself, they were good fighters and could probably beat Rocky, they just weren't killers like Clubber was.

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[–] ryan-anderson 9 years ago

I think (like others have said) he feels that he is a fraud that didn't think for himself.

That's what his fear is: that if he faces Clubber again and loses just as bad again.....he will really be exposed as a fraud (i.e. that he was carried).

Ignoring: QuesterJonesV, MythicCDXX, Creeping Jesus/Judas, RonPaul_Lies, Digby (and aliases), ibestupid, Holiday_Hobo, sharon_18, TilaMoo, Okie-from-Muskogee/boo321, NorCalNik, Nullifidian

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[–] tlw013-1 9 years ago

All of this is really the only plausible explanation. It's what we have to accept as the case.

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