British/U.K. Spec-Ops
Can anyone out there tell me (for sure) if the SAS and other U.K. Tac Units are still using the High Power? I've heard they have changed to the Glock 17/19 models. I hope somebody reads this friggin post!
shareEach SAS soldier (and SBS) get to choose what weapons they use.
Most plump for the SIG-Sauer P226 when involved in counter terrorist operations although some do use Glocks.
Thanks for answering.
I've heard they have reluctantly moved away from the High Power.
I unfortunately missed a three day CQB training class one year. The instructors were active duty and retired spec-op soldiers and cops. Among the instructors was a retired British Spec-Op cop, an old guy.
The guys said he regarded the HP like most of us/Americans regard the 1911. He was not at all happy with the prospect of the HP being chambered in .40 cal..
Garand.son/10-8
Standard British Special Ops kills are done with multiple head shots (5-8 shots). I can see his point is going down the .40 cal route.
Maybe why more and more and using Glocks.
So then...lets start a debate......
Delta Force or SAS?
SEALS or SBS?
SWAT or SO19?
Simon, I don't believe there is enough difference in the abilities of ANY spec-op soldier to fill a coffee cup. Spec-ops training is what it is when your talking about modern countries. Up to date/state of the art training, food, equipment, motivation/morale etc. Of course where the military is concerned, my money will always be on America and England (GB).
I will tell you this though. I watched the latest SWAT competition on ESPN. It took place in April of this year, I was watching the re-run.
I can't remember exactly which teams were involved but there were some 7 or 8. I'll list the ones as I remember them.
Los Angeles, CA
Dallas, TX
San Antonio, TX
Orange County, FL (?)
GSG-9, Germany
and a Canadian team.
There were a couple more, but I can't recall.
The GSG9 won the competition.
I think L.A. was 2nd and one of the Texas teams was 3rd. The Canadian team busted their ass and really tried hard but came up last. I wish NYPD's team and the FBI's HRT had participated but didn't.
The Germans kicked ass. ALL teams were very impressive. Some of the guys here argued that GSG-9 is a military unit such as Delta, SEALS, SAS, SBS etc and should not have been in comp with civilian teams but I personally disagree. I believe a tac-team should be held to the highest standard.
Just my thoughts.
Garand.son/10-8
GSG9 are in fact considered a police unit in Germany as they are charged with border protection.
They are used for other operations from time to time tho, for example the raid in Mogadishu (with a couple of SAS guys tagging along).
For me tho....I'd go for the SBS. The in joke with them is that they only difference between them and the SAS is that the SBS can walk on water.
They are what we call in the UK The Dog's Bollocks.
I agree that finding a difference between the Spec Op teams is almost impossible as they inter train with each other. For example when Delta first started up in the late 70's, members of the SAS went to help intrstuct them on training methods and construction for CQB. As they also do exchanges where say a SEAL will go and work with the SBS for 3 years and vice versa.
shareAs I've understood, we/America never had spec-ops teams/units until WW2 and we were trained by the Brits from the beginning. I seem to remember reading somewhere that both our Marine Raiders and Army Rangers were the two original organizations in particular.
Just my donation for the cause.
I think they get the choice but a lot still use the Hi-Power for field work and wars etc but when it calls for concelment they use the P226(although some still use the HiPo) I really wish i could own a hipower but unfortunalty handguns and most other guns are banned in Britain:( so i guess i'm never going to get the opportunity to own one(although i'm conisdering joining the army so hopefully the chance turns up:)) I thnk the Armed Police In Britian use the glock models. And to the knob end who said England(GB) England isnt Britain you that really pisses me off, Its just ignorant. The UK is made up of Four Countries!
Doyle:Come on in darling the doors open
Bodie:Anything you say sweetheart:)
im sure they just use some kind of mind control to disable any would be terrorists . . . . . er hang on a second this thread is utterly pointless
who cares what guns the sas carry
GROW UP FOR GODS SAKE
Then why are you responding to it fatbud?
Some of us have interest in these kinds of subjects my friend.
Perhaps the thread is pointless but your head is not, hmmmm.
shut up, u moron.
the SAS were formed in 1941 in the desert. They were disbanded about 1947 or somethin and reformed in early 50's.
The SAS trained the majority of the worlds special forces, including delta and GSG 9. The SBS was part of the SAS at one point so the SAS is clearly superior and has taught the wold all it knows but is still the best. Hats off to the SAS and the SBS.
Question: who would win, all the SAS and SBS against the entire chinese army? quantity over quality...
SBS or SAS? silly question probably but I'll play
SBS I say.
Why you ask? well the SBS all come from the Royal marines so they are already double hard, SAS can come from any regiment. I agree there is next to no difference and I am probably talking rubbish but there are a few things I do know.
1 is a lot of operations acredited to the SAS were carried out by the SBS.
If anybody is in any doubt may i recomend a good book on the subject.
I have read all the usual SAS books but this one SBS book stands out
'First into Action' by Duncan Falconer Just reading about the training he went through makes you hurt.
As for pistols they adopted the sig P226 but on some operations can choose their own usually for concealed carry.
IIRC they rejected any sort of Glock though because of no external safety.
no expert thats just what I have picked up through reading about the UK SF
Actually, the first spec ops group, according to line of descent, was the original Rangers, from the Revolutionary War. They are what the present day Army Rangers and others trace their lineage from..... In addition, the UDT were a product of several nations at once. Italy and Germany had "frogmen" prior to the US. Paratroopers were first fielded in both the USSR and Germany.
share[deleted]
arizony_ames on Fri Dec 30 2005 14:50:23
Actually, the first spec ops group, according to line of descent, was the original Rangers, from the Revolutionary War. They are what the present day Army Rangers and others trace their lineage from..... In addition, the UDT were a product of several nations at once. Italy and Germany had "frogmen" prior to the US. Paratroopers were first fielded in both the USSR and Germany.
That's true, but those early Rangers were British, not American.
actually the Rogers Rangers where all born in the colonies. So they where colonists and actually despised the english officers. They where not in the revolution but in the french indian war.
Technically they were British but almost all of them came together again to fight off the British in one way or another.
Not "damn hippies" it's "GOD DAMN HIPPIES"
Rogers' Rangers — commanded by Major Robert Rogers — was an Independent Company of Rangers attached to the British Army during the French and Indian War.Rogers evidenced an unusual talent for ranging. He took the initiative in raising, equipping and commanding ranger units. He added theory to the art, writing the first field manual of the topic. The Queen's York Rangers of the Canadian Army and the U.S. Army Rangers and the 1st Battalion 119th Field Artillery claim him as their founder and "Rogers' Rules of Ranging" are still quoted.
share[deleted]
Easy.
SAS - nuff said.
SBS - No contest, I saw a group of Seals get their butts whupped in a bar by British sailors on shore leave. Not SBS, just regular sailors.
SWAT Credit where it is due. because, due to stupid gun laws, SWAT teams have a hell of a lot more to deal with than. A typical day for SO19 is to deal with a drunk bloke with a 50 year old Luger, then home for tea and biscuits.
*When I was young, I wanted to be somebody. Now I realise I should have been more specific.*
My only question is were they REALLY seals, or those we know of here as wannabes. Just because they said they were seals doesn't mean they're seals. Also, were they bullfrogs, or just tadpoles? Bullfrogs won't fight in a bar. They will just drink and watch the fun. The only time they fight is when it matters.
As to SWAT, yes they have a lot more to deal with. Not "stupid gun laws". It's called the constitution. Something to keep the government in check. I have noted that since Great Britain enacted their more restrictive gun laws, crime in general, and especially violent crime has increased dramatically. So much for the gunless society. I would guess that what most British politicians and libs have is what might be called "gun envy". True gun control is hitting your mark. What most people want when they talk about crime, is criminal control....
"Not "stupid gun laws". It's called the constitution."
My apologies, I thought the american constitution gave americans the "right to bear arms." I should have realised that it was actually more specific than that and give americans the "right to bear firearms."
And just because it's part of the constitution doesn't mean it's a good thing. the constitution has been changed several times in the past.
*When I was young, I wanted to be somebody. Now I realise I should have been more specific.*
I note with some sadness that you take the normal unlearned tact of ignoring the thrust of what I said. You totally ignored the point that since Britain has enacted even more draconian gun laws, that your level of violent crime has increased even more dramatically. Yet, because you can not dispute this, you try the tack of attacking those who still have the right to defend themselves, their families, and their neighbors. Too bad. Yet, our violent crime rate is falling even faster because of our concealed carry laws which have a demonstrable effect on the comfort levels of criminals who now are fearful that they will confront an armed civilian who is not restrained by rules to give them a fair shake. Rather, if you attempt a violent act against myself, my family, or another party in my presence, I have the means and the will to exercise the means to protect the victim of your violent act. And, lest you try the old, lame argument about "Dodge City", let me tell you that:
1-Dodge City was a place where decent women could walk th streets at night, with no fear of harm; and
2-Dodge City was a place where civility was the norm of the day; and, finally,
3-Contrary to your ideas of "wild west shootouts", they were few and far between. They are more the idea of Hollywood, than anything else.
I grew up in the "wild west" in Northern Arizona, and knew of very few shoot outs, almost all of which involved people who would have been involved in a serious physical altercation anyway.
Last I heard, Rapes, Assaults, Violent Home Break-ins when the residents are home, Murders, and more are all up across the board in Britain since your draconian bans were started. Now, the gangs even confront the police. Is there a direct correlation? I think so. By the way, I am retired military and a former police officer, with over 8 years behind the badge.
Something I should have noted earlier, but didn't. The constitution does NOT grant rights. It only acknowledges what the founding fathers noted as God given rights. A right can not be granted. A privelege can be granted, and likewise revoked. As in y'all's government removing from you the privelege to hunt, to protect yourselves, etc.
share"A typical day for SO19 is to deal with a drunk bloke with a 50 year old Luger, then home for tea and biscuits."
In light of recent events, I think it would be wise of you to retract that ill-informed comment.
Liamolf. You may note that the key word was "typical." I think recent events can be counted as very atypical. God help us all if that is wrong.
*When I was young, I wanted to be somebody. Now I realise I should have been more specific.*
You even live in London? Or even the UK for that matter?
Gun crime is a fact of life here now.
"I got one! I fackin' got one!"
"What do you want, a fackin' sweetie?! Keep shooting ya' *beep*
Yes, I live in the UK, thankfully not London, but I have lived in various parts of the country and spent a lot of time working in others, I think I have probably spent at least a week in every town in this country and I can honestly say that I have never seen an unlicensed firearm or heard a gunshot that cannot be accounted for by hunting or on a shooting range.
If you cannot say the same, I suggest you move house, your urban warzone is not a true representation of this country and I pity you for thinking that it is.
*When I was young, I wanted to be somebody. Now I realise I should have been more specific.*
Well, I guess your statement about "thankfully not London" tells it all. However, the statistics gathered by Scotland Yard and Interpol tell the tale. Crime in general is up in Britain. Especially violent crime. I, too, have seldom heard a shot which could not be explained through normal and lawful pursuits such as target shooting and hunting. So, the idea that the "colonies" are a violent land is one born in whitehall and the media to support their ideas that a society where the populace cannot defend itself is a polite society. History shows a much more complete story. Such a populace is not citizens, they are slaves such as are found in countries such as China, Cuba, the former Soviet Union, etc. Citizens have the right to defend themselves, their families, and their neighbors. Take a look at how us "uncivilized" colonists had to send firearms to Britain in WWII to help y'all defend yourselves, because you didn't have enough firearms to defend yourselves with. Yes, Dunkirk was the cause of the loss of many of these weapons, however, in the US, we have the right and the obligation to support and defend our country and fellow countrymen.......
I'll get off of my soapbox for now. However, criminals in the US are more afraid of the "ordinary citizen" than they are of the police. This is because they know that the liklihood that they will have their criminal career cut short by "ordinary citizens" is greater than that they will be caught by the cops......
Reference Firearms crime in Britain, as published in The Independent Online Edition January 23, 2006:
Capital gun crime rises by 50 per cent
Weapons are now fashion accessories, warns Yard
By Sophie Goodchild, Chief Reporter
Published: 22 January 2006
Record levels of gun crime are being blamed on the fact that more people than ever are carrying firearms as fashion accessories.
Figures published this week by the Home Office are expected to show that offences involving guns have soared by as much as 50 per cent in some parts of the country.
The greatest rises have been in the number of people found in possession of firearms and in the number of attempted murders.
Nearly half of police forces surveyed by The Independent on Sunday report a rise in gun-related offences. Those questioned include the Metropolitan, Hampshire and Bedfordshire forces.
This is in a country which has basically outlawed all but single shot weapons, and has DEFINITELY outlawed automatic firearms and handguns......Hmmmmmmmm. So, criminals don't obey laws, oh, yes, that must be why they are called "lawbreakers".........Hmmmmmmmmm. Outlawing firearms only disarms honest citizens.....Hmmmmmm. Sounds as if the nasty American National Rifle Association is right......No, that can't be....Must be some other reason, because we can't accept that the colonists might be right.......
Sorry about the sarcasm, but the problem is so obvious, yet people are so intent on NOT accepting the facts......Bad guys don't obey laws. Such as Iran, they are NOT obeying all the treaties they signed. So, what can be done? Perhaps letting them know that their behavior will NOT be accepted....Then, after they accept that their actions are unacceptable, they can be allowed back into polite society. Failure to acknowledge that their actions are unacceptable should lead to action, NOT words. They, like all criminals and such, only despise those who talk......They hate, but respect, those who ACT.
All right folks, let's keep it civil. Having watched WDW ( or"The Final Option" as it's called here in the US) for the umpteenth time on cable, (and enjoying it just as much) I'm checking out the IMDB posts and noting that the discussions are interesting and refreshingly civil compared to most of the lists I've looked on. Can we agree that the UK and US have different gun laws and that each deals with the benefits and detriments of those laws as best they can?
By the way, anyone know what Lewis Collins is up to these days?
out of delta force and sas, chuck norris would win.
Note my wording. Delta Force would not win because of chuck norris, chuck norris would just WIN.
OK?
But only with the guidance of Lee Marvin.
shareWhen an innocent farmer is jailed for shooting an unrepentant repeat offender (30+ convictions at the last count) whilst he was in the process of burgling his house, then you have to wonder just what the hell is going on in the UK these days.
I wouldn't advocate free gun laws as exist in the states, but the penalties and "human rights" for repeat offenders and those who carry weapons on the streets must be looked at again.
Anyone who has the misfortune to ever need to kill a burglar, mugger, or carjacker need only say to arresting officer ...
" I'm dreadfully sorry officer ... I genuinely thought he was a brazilian electrician "
For the record I am no trendy lefty ... but in the case of De Menezes, the police have lied throughout.
They claimed all seven cctv cameras in Stockwell Station were 'out of order.'
That was dismissed by the shift supervisor.
The police later admitted that there was footage ... but none of it could be released 'for security reasons'.
- The police always quote the old phrase " the innocent have nothing to fear "
- Errr ... the police kill the wrong man - and then flat out lie that there was no film footage of said incident.
'Nothing to fear' Hmmmm ....
Two police officers are under investigation for attempting to change the wording in a written log of orders issued prior to the shooting, with reference to their own involvement.
- Yet we have 'nothing to fear.'
The audio recording ( two tapes in parallel ) of ALL words exchanged between officers in the operational command room, and officers 'on the ground' - are also sadly blank.
Nothing to fear.
-----------------
Kill a burglar / mugger / rapist ... get arrested for murder.
Kill the wrong bloke while wearing police uniform - no problem.
-----------------
The most galling fact in all this, is that the Met are now so 'politically correct' that they are now way beyond even doing an adequate job it's not even funny.
Strange how the PC Handbook goes out the window as soon as it's one of them accused of a crime ... and laws are broken to back him up.
Is this the John Charles De Menezes who was living and working (as an unqualified electrician no less!) in the UK illegally?
Why on Earth should police officers asked to do a dangerous and stressful job in difficult conditions be punished for shooting someone who shouldn't even have been there in the first place?
If De Menezes had buggered off home when his visa had run out then he'd still be alive. Instead he chose to break the law and stay. His death was a undoubtedly a tragedy, but neither he or his family should have any grounds for complaint under British law.
Uhhh...why are you trying to stick up for the police?
shareLewis Collins was big in the UK in the 70's when he starred in The Professionals, but since then, almost nothing has been seen nor heard of him (aside from some small TV stuff and WDW in the 80's). His partner in The Professionals, Martin Shaw, went on to become a 'serious actor' and is on our TV screens to this day, something Collins could easily have done if somehow he hadn't lost the momentum, and if he'd had a tad more luck I guess. Perhaps he's happily out of the limelight raising chickens........
shareArizony_ames, I've lived in London all 42 years of my life, and have lived in Harlesden, probably the highest gun-crime area in London, for 21 years. Hell, I even heard one go off once! In the last ten years, 5 gun murders have taken place within a ten minute walk of my house - that probably counts for nothing in some parts of New York, but for London that's a very high number.
I would take what you read in a British paper (even one such as The Independent) with a pinch of salt. Their job is to sell papers first, get the truth across second. No real detail of *where* these rises occurred are given. I do know (from the Metropolitan Police website) that London gun crime rose 4.3% last year. Hardly 50%. I also doubt the paper would tell us about 50% drops - good news doesn't sell papers.
The US murder rate is over 300% higher per capita than the UK. The US has 2 million prisoners locked up (one for every 145 citizens), five times the number per capita of prisoners in the UK (around 80,000 locked up here).
The US is evidently going wrong somewhere. Despite massive gun ownership, and a huge prison population, the US suffers some of the highest crime rates in the Western world. The UK, with a vastly smaller prison population and next to no gun ownership, is a haven of peace by comparison. If guns 'work', and prison 'works', why are US serious crime levels (and crime levels in general) SO high?
Whatever the answer, the US can keep its gun laws and prison philosophy, and Europe can keep its laws and philosophy. Comparing the two, it's clear cut that crime levels are far lower here than in the US, so either we're very lucky (and have been for decades), or we're doing something very right.
As for WDW, good film!
SAS SBS SO19 defentily some mean MotherFu**ers that you do not want on your SH*TLIST. At last count SAS Troopers could draw from Glocks, H&K, Sig Sauer, or brownings for handguns, they still ove the H&K MP5 and all the varations that H&K offer, but all troopers get trained in all types of weapons NATO, WARSAW PACT, and all the other's out there to many to mention.
share IM british, never seen a real handgun. Only time I ever fired anything was a shotgun when I was clay pigeon shooting at a farm.
It's not gun crime we really need to worry about in the UK. its general thuggery - lots of violence with just fists and bottles etc. F'in chavs..
I personally don't like the idea of someone I pissed off having a handgun on their person. That would make me more scared than not having a gun on me.
There is less povety here in the UK therefore our criminals are less desperate, our regular police officers dont carry firearms, so therefore criminals usually just need to arm themselves with a decent pair of Reebok's to escape apprehension, we are right to have our gun laws the way they are, I personally believe that in the US the gun laws cause more harm than good, but that's just my personal opinion.. and I do believe with the way the US is today they are right to have armed policemen, 2 different countries, 2 different peoples, 2 different mindsets, but I feel a hell of a lot safer here than I would there.
[Truth is the first casualty in Hollywood's war]
Well, I say!
Yanks attaking the Brits on matters to do with guns! The brittish are so well trained in warfare that if we allowed guns wed start dropping like flies!
All the yanks who carry guns have such poor shots that the gun crime rates are very low, just cos the undertrained trigger happy so-sos cant hit there targets! Just look at the American forces, they cant keep there finget off the trigger to save there lives, but do they ever hit anything... NO! They only hit each other, and thats onlt cos its easyer to hit someone standing next to you, rather than someone a mile away wearing armour!
So all you yanks just go back to the top of this thread, and re-read all those lovely comments abot how the american forces came to be, and whofounded and trained them!
Oh please....
Kid, grow up.
Even the much vaunted SAS armoury will not have different weapons for different users preferences (for that see Delta / etc). They'll be a couple of standard handguns (maybe a couple) and a few specialist to task (e.g. silenced, water immersible, covert). Not hundreds of types for the picking of like a kid in a candy store.
Me, grow up?
On a thread where men talk about guns?
Yehaw.
Idiots.
I've read several things in various books and websites that most soldiers consider the Glock pistols to be more of a law enforcement weapon and they are not built for the heavy usage that the military employs. Special Forces don't have a choice from any weapon they want there is usually a select amount that they can choose from and they usually have to fit a certain profile (Delta Force operatives must have a .45 ACP last I read). Most SAS use SIG pistols now, it's generally the older members who stick to their Brownings as they have been using them for years. If I personally were to have a pick from any type of pistol I'd go with a modern 1911 type pistol like a Kimber Custom II TLE or a Springfield Operator.
shareFrom experience of working in a armory the most common pistol during the 50' to 80's was the hi power. the second most common pistol during the 80' to 00's is the 92f due to the magazine size.
The regiment likes the new sig more due to its almost perfect reliability similar to the hi power. The regiments armory isn't a glorified gun shop but it does have some unique weapons in their, mainly for training purposes.
You will also find the Job dependent your looking at most weapons that chamber the 7.62 if they are on a patrol due to the stopping power.
as for special forces ive had the luxury to have met a delta squad and a few seals great chaps.
but at the end of the day it all comes down to training.
i would be hard pushed to say who's is the hardest course probably between gsg9 and the sas.
dont get me wrong the yanks have some amazing special forces (but a lot of the kit is high end) where as the Sas boys are more on physical and mental training they like to keep things simple as they can.
but we can argue the case till the sun comes up at least their all on our side.
and if you want to see how good the S A S training is just look at the longest ever evade and escape in history (chris ryan) the one that got away (id not agree on his book as its more about ra ra ra than how it was) but all the same it was one hell of a achievement.
Ive also done the fan dance (part of sas selection) gang of us done it for charity. we almost mad the regiments timing (but didnt have unslung weapons and 120 pound pack on our backs)