MovieChat Forums > Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy (1980) Discussion > anti-americanism

anti-americanism

posted 9 years ago by NewtonFigg
7 replies | jump to latest

The mole, when discovered, explains how he became a traitor. In 1950, he realized he hated Americans. It's been 35 years since I read the book,and I don't remember that line, and I don't have the book handy. (I also don't remember that Mr. Mole had been subjected to enhanced interrogation.) That anti-American point of view eventually openly became that of LeCarre himself. If it was stated by a spy in 1974, was that an apologia for the spy who may have been based on Philby?

[–] dylanw1 9 years ago

This is how it appears in the book:

‘In capitalist America economic repression of the masses is institutionalised to a point which not even Lenin could have foreseen.

‘The cold war began in 1917 but the bitterest struggles lie ahead of us, as America’s deathbed paranoia drives her to greater excesses abroad...'

He spoke not of the decline of the West, but of its death by greed and constipation. He hated America very deeply, he said, and Smiley supposed he did. Haydon also took it for granted that secret services were the only real measure of a nation’s political health, the only real expression of its subconscious.

I think it’s fair to say that le Carré’s criticisms of the US are largely related to US foreign policy over the last 15 years or so, and not really related to the ideas he has coming out of Bill Haydon’s mouth.

As one might expect, le Carré has had a few opportunities to write about Kim Philby, and has never expressed sympathy toward Philby or any of his motives. I don’t believe he intends for Haydon to be seen as a tragic figure, but like Philby, as someone who, out of egoism and misguided, poorly thought out ideology, inflicted a great deal of harm on the world.

[–] benth04 9 years ago

I think it’s fair to say that le Carré’s criticisms of the US are largely related to US foreign policy over the last 15 years or so

S'pose that you mean 'the last 15 years' before the book's/film's 'today' - which is app. 1973. Which means that 'US foreign policy' is centered around the Viet Nam War - lies and blunders and body bags from beginning to the end - as a proxy war for the one against the Soviets.

(....) Philby, as someone who, out of egoism and misguided, poorly thought out ideology, inflicted a great deal of harm on the world.

I see those traitors - the only adequate term for Philly, Burgess, MacLean and many other more unknown - as people who believe they have seen 'which way the wind blows'. They firmly believed that the era of Capitalism was nearly over and they saw it as decaying, parasitic and moribund - to use Lenin's approach - and socialism as victorious. So if you sympathised with socialism already - why not join ranks at once and speed up the death throes of capitalism? The sooner, the better!

In the same way there were a lot of traitors in the first years og WW2: Hitler had already won the war - restlos gesiegt - and left over were only a little cleaning-up to do: Eastern Russia and Britain......

So, in many European countries you saw e.g. officers, known for strong nationalist approaches, step out of the closet as ardent Nazis. 'Latter Day Saints' called - and often worse than most Germans!

[–] suicidea 8 years ago

I don't mean to stray from the latest posts, but this brings to my mind something that I can't quite figure out.

It's been a couple of years since I read the book, and if I recall correctly, it was stated that Haydon was recruited by Karla at an early age.

This is not mentioned in the TV series. It could be argued that the purpose was to save running time. However, Haydon clearly says something like "I hate Ameica very deeply. The economic oppression of the masses, institutionalized. Even Lenin couldn't foresee the extent of that... I suppose that's when it began. Turning my eyes to the East. By 1950s, I was occasionally slipping bits of intelligence to Karla as gifts, to help with the Russian cause against America." I may have misquoted a few words, but this is the gist of it.

This contradicts with the idea that he was recruited by Karla: Here he speaks as if he became a Russian sympathizer due to his hatred for America, and voluntarily started to give information to the Russians.

Never be complete.

[–] stevekaczynski 8 years ago

Alleline admires the Americans but in the Circus quite a few high-ups despise and distrust them. I think Control, for example, has no time for them. There is probably some resentment of Britain's loss of power and influence to the USA. Only the mole takes the resentment as far as betrayal.

"Chicken soup - with a *beep* straw."

[–] amyghost 8 years ago

Not surprising he would, as he's clearly seen as a boot-licker by Control, Haydon, and likely enough Smiley himself; willing to offer up the British service to the American 'cousins' not least because he thinks it will enhance his own position by doing so. There seems to be no real 'right' way here: the mole and most of the other disaffected Circus personnel are either clinging to outmoded dreams of empire, or have fled to an already dying dream of the perfect socialist society, while the Alleline contingent smells what's in the wind and have decided that being America's 'streetwalker' (as Haydon phrases it), while it may be distasteful to some, is the most pragmatic way of holding on to such prestige as they can. The irony in all cases is that the British Service has become pretty much irrelevant to the 'cousins' by this time, their interncine wars and betrayals having little meaning to the new empire that's been remorselessly on the rise.

50 Is The New Cutoff Age.

[–] stevekaczynski 8 years ago

Alleline's attitude was most appropriate to what actually happened, at least in the real world of British intelligence, which seems to have become no more than an auxiliary to the Americans, whether this role was resented or not.
As far back as the Korean War, British troops were noticing that they had become second fiddle to the Americans and Suez put the cap on this.

"Chicken soup - with a *beep* straw."

[–] amyghost 8 years ago

And it probably was resented, though most didn't take it to the extent that Haydon (and his real life counterparts) did. Feelings against the Americans had begun to run high as early as WWII, when it seemed the US troops were pretty much jockeying the British out of their positions on all fronts, home and battle lines. The Cold War, which ought to have eased tensions between the countries, sometimes had the effect of exacerbating old resentments and injuries all the more.

50 Is The New Cutoff Age.