Jack the Ripper



One of the things i find most interesting about this movie is how, although Jack talks about how much he belongs in the world of the 70's he is still intrensically a Victorian gentleman....Look at how courteous he is to the women in this movie even though he is going to kill them he is still saying please and thank you...he even says please to Amy when he tells her to drive faster....Although it is easier for him to operate in the 70's he really doesnt belong there any more than welles does.I think one of his problems is the conflict between his desires and the stifling of his society around him in Victorian England....and one wonders if he would have ever become the ripper had he grown up in the more open and permissive 70s.

David Warner is absolutely brilliant in this role....you feel compassion for him, and like him, but not so much that you want him to go on getting away with it....
It is not our abilities that show who we truly are...it is our choices

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he Victorian Era wasnt nearly as hard on ones intellect as Freud woudl have us beleive. I mean, most peipek survived and didnt become complete neurotcs, and despite our fanciful imaginatiins regarding the period, they did have some rouh and tumble areas, and permissive moments.

Just as our Permissive culture isnt all its Cracke dup to be. We just thinkfo it as such because its what we're use to.


Beign a Serial killer is driven by a need for power over the Victim, so I doubt that either Era woudl really placate him.

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That's very true. For the most part it was an awful time to live, but I wish we could get back to the way people treated each other, with their code of civility.

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A serial killer in the 1890's was unheard of and would be quite a fearful shock to anybody who lived in London. A serial killer in 1970's San Francisco would be a five second blurb on the mourning radio. Nobody is shocked and everybody kind of accepts it as a part of life. Which world would a serial killer thrive in, a world where it is unheard of or a world where it is an almost common occurrence?


1890's = a world with less violence, crime, disease, poverty, hatred, war, family breakdown etc....




1970's = a world with more violence, crime, disease, poverty, hatred, war, family breakdown etc....



If you were a serial killer which time would you feel more comfortable in?

He may have veiled manners to get what he wants but his sick perversion was a precursor to the disgusting times we live in now. He was ahead of his time you might say.

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1890's = a world with less violence, crime, disease, poverty, hatred, war, family breakdown etc....

How true is that? In the 1890s the words racism, domestic violence, child abuse and their ilk didn't exist. Those things were simply considered facts of life. Also, cancer, tuberculosis, STDs infected wounds and even pneumonia were death sentences as often as not. The 19th century was a world without anti-biotics. Fortunately the late 20th century was not.

Poverty was rampant too. Now there are soup kitchens, food banks, mission shelters and nursing homes and other things. Not always the nicest places to be, but at least they're there. They weren't in the 1890s.

As for family breakdown, divorce wasn't an option in 1890s. Neither was leaving an abusive marriage, even temporarily. There was no shelters or support of any kind for abused women and children. They were simply trapped.

You were right about one thing though. Serial killers were unheard of in the 1890s, a world without TV or the internet. On the other hand, they were probably looking for raging lunatic who literally foamed at the mouth, not a polite well spoken man. It might actually have been easier in 1890 to avoid suspicion.

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proudbrunette, good post/counter-argument. I had to do a double take when I read that comparison between the 1890s and 1970s. A bit over-reaching to say the least! Personally I have never pined that much for the "good old days", the grass isn't necessarily always greener on the other side of time... though sure I can agree that certain things like civil discourse and civility in general seems to have worsened over time.

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Um, no. Please get your history right.

I was thinking more on a world scale but just an analysis of UK and the US 1890's and our modern era Brings these results

Poverty:

According to the US Census those below the poverty line in America had a rate of 11-15%; This is despite "food banks, mission shelters and nursing homes and other things"

UK in the 1890's had a rate of 12-15% (Rowntree, B.S., Poverty: A Study of Town Life, 1901)

So they were about the same as in percentages per capita, though it should be noted that although social welfare was not nationalized civic and religious organizations acted in their stead.

Disease:
According to the scholarship of W. T. RUSSELL, F.S.S.
(From the National Institute of Medical Research, Hampstead, N.W. 3,
and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, W.C. 1.)

26,325 people in a population of over 30 million died of cancer. Double that and you got the approximate population of the UK today 62,698,362-

That would make the cancer rate with no scientific advances at 52,650 with today's population.

The cancer rate (deaths only) though despite are medical advances is three times higher with the same approximate population. Death from Cancer 2008 = 156,723.

Tuberculous kills over 1.8 million a year around the world but most of the deaths do not occur in the UK or America (10 deaths per 100,000). AIDS though accumulates to 114,766 current cases in the UK alone with over 19,000 deaths. Heart disease 89,174 deaths (mostly due to modern diet and obesity).

STD's in UK: 123,018 new diagnoses of chlamydia, 28,957 diagnosed with genital herpes, 92,525 diagnoses of genital warts, 7,298 people in 2008 were diagnosed with HIV in the UK. I could not find proper STD statistics for 1890's, but reading the literature suggests four things: the Victorian era's repulsion of prostitution did curb the spread of STD's, the relative absence of homosexuality (sodomy) and relative lack of intravenous drug use as well pre marriage and married monogamy limited the spread of STD's. All things are opposite in our modern society.

Family breakdown:

1890's
Researchers Leonore Davidoff and Catherine Hall have argued that, "during the Victorian era, the prosperous British middle class increasingly valued the family unit. Consequently, Victorians regarded a loving, secure home as a buffer against the intrusions of the outside world". Most households had two parents with many times the grand parents living with them as well

20th/21st centuries
“Marriage has declined as the central institution under which households are organized and children are raised,” Smith said. “People marry later and divorce and cohabitate more. A growing proportion of children has been born outside of marriage.” - Tod Smith author of “The Emerging 21st-Century American Family.”

Domestic violence:

Three months of a typical year in the SF bat area

Dec.25 Santa Clara Husband Emotionless As He Shot Family
Dec.11 Santa Rosa Man Found Guilty Of Stabbing Girlfriend
Dec.8 Martinez Death Sentence For Man Who Killed Sister
Dec.7 Menlo Park Son Of Bonds Arrested After Arguing
Dec.1 East Oakland Suspect Caught After Fatal Stabbing
Nov.20 San Rafael Porn Mogul's Son To Be Tried In Death
Nov.17 Berkeley Man Charged With Murder Of Mom, Child
Nov.6 Martinez Death Sentence For Killer
Nov.1 Raiders Ex-wife, girlfriend claim Cable abuser
Oct.24 Palo Alto Man Charged In Girlfriend's Arson Death
Oct.20 Palo Alto Lounge owner arrested in girlfriend death 36-year-old Bulos 'Paul' Zumot, the owner of a smoking lounge, is behind bars after being arrested in the death of his girlfriend
Oct.8 East Oakland 2 people dead in shooting
East Oakland Woman died after shooting
Sep.30 Berkeley 2 injured followed family dispute

Sep.14 East Oakland Mother kills daughter, self at nursing home

"One in three women in the United States will be battered, beaten or abused in her lifetime."

1890's

History shows a rise in domestic violence in the 19th century but it was very limited compared to today.

Frances Power Cobbe, champion of the rights of working-class women, wrote in 1878: “Wife-beating exists in the upper and middle classes rather more, I fear, than is generally recognized; but it rarely extends to anything beyond an occasional blow or two not of a dangerous kind”

This was because there was a protection built into society as researcher Jenna Dodenhoff writes:

"In a society as highly dependent on social approval as that of the Victorian middle and upper classes, all but the most vicious of husbands would be keenly aware of the pretension that wives were husbands‟ mates and to be treated with dignity".


As for shelters and support systems (for the lower class).

Jenna Dodenhoff writes:

"While physical violence was generally accepted and expected among the working class, it had the unexpectedly positive side effect of providing the victim with a built-in support network her social superiors lacked. It was improper for neighbors to intervene in an altercation between husband and wife, which was regarded as a natural part of marriage, but female neighbors tended to a battered wife‟s wounds, offering her a safe haven if she saw fit to flee her husband‟s temper"

While failing to live up to the Victorian ideal of marriage led a great deal of husbands to covet a superior attitude towards their wives, the fact that it was so social unacceptable made advocacy so prolific and the act so foreign to a modern reader of accounts.

Crime: Well, lets just say gun violence because it is hard to get statistics for crime before the 20th century. It is reported that in all of the UK 3 homicides were committed with guns in 1890-1892 (http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/EnglishFailures.htm) Now compare that with San Francisco at any time.

From the BBC history of crime:
The economic downswings of the second half of the nineteenth century were generally not as serious, widespread, or life threatening as those of preceding centuries. Violent behaviour was increasingly frowned upon, dealt with increasingly severely by the courts, and seems, in consequence, to have been brought under a greater degree of control. The new police forces, uniformly established across the whole country in the mid-1850s and subject to annual inspections on behalf of Parliament, appear to have had some success in suppressing those forms of public behaviour that respectable Victorians considered rough and offensive. Violent crime in the form of murder and street robbery never figured significantly in the statistics or in the courts.

Hatred: Do we even have to go here? The fact we have a term "Ethnic Cleansing" and "Genocide" where those concepts were so foreign to the Victorian mind. "The Killing Fields" had just happened in Cambodia right before the action of the film takes place.

War: More people died in the 20th century from warfare than every other century combined in the history of record keeping.

So this is a brief challenge to your incorrect assumptions.

While Jack the Ripper was confined to a small corner of the East end his story was blown out of proportion because of its peculiarity (Interestingly the Night Stalker would start to prowl around the same year as the film 1979). The 1890's despite its problems with the industrial revolution (primarily in the cities) it was an overwhelmingly kinder and gentler place to live. The general love amongst "neighborers" was greater as well as moral fortitude in all areas. It was generally a safer and a subjectively better place to live.


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