Can someone explain the anti-Robbie R brigade? - The Last Waltz (1978) Discussion

[–] premont 17 years ago

Robertson got solo songwriting credit and royalties on a lot of The Band's music. Helm felt he and the other members were tricked into signing their rights away. The other controversy is that a lot of people feel that Robertson unfairly dominates "The Last Waltz". I don't know about Manuel's funeral, but apparently even Danko's funeral caused controversy for Robertson. Apparently Robbie mentioned the "songs he wrote". Levon wouldn't attend the memorial because - "I don't want to sit there with a bunch of guilty-ass people who had their hands in Rick's pockets. You want to know what killed Rick Danko? He worked himself to death. That's what happens when people steal your money."

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[–] Belfast_Cowboy 17 years ago

Strangely, when I saw Last Waltz, I though Helm was the coolest out of all of them. But then about a year later I became a huge Band fanatic and read Helm's book. Now I like Robbie and Richard the most. Helm's antipathy towards Robbie is whiny and unjustified, nobody else in the Band blames Robbie for it, he was the only one who took initiative in The Last Waltz. The reason Robertson didn't attend Manuel's funeral was because he had some sort of lung infection, as of today he speaks very highly of Richard. As for Levon, I understand his anger that he doesn't get royalties, but he is just looking for somebody to blame. Nobody likes a complainer.

"I feel the freeze down in my knees"

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[–] The_Third_Honcho 17 years ago

ef major

i like this stuff.

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[–] universe56 17 years ago

put simply, without levon, you don't have the band, he was the lead singer on many of their first hits and only top ten hit "up on cripple creek". Let the guy be angry, robbie was the eazy-e of the band and richard and rick and levon, garth really as well were the dr.dre, doing all the work and getting little to no credit. Even on garth's solo on rock of ages, the genetic method, robbie has a co-writing credit when it is a completely improvised solo on the organ played by garth, let the guys be angry.

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[–] Belfast_Cowboy 17 years ago

Let the guys be angry? The only guy that's angry is Levon. Richard, Rick, and Garth all recorded with Robbie after Last Waltz and stayed in touch with him (Garth appeared on stage with him in March to accept their Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award) so I don't even understand what Levon's problem with Chest Fever is. Personally the solo isn't what I love about the song, it's the song itself. The only person in the music world that doesn't understand that playing an instrument in a song doesn't make you the songwriter is Levon Helm.

"I feel the freeze down in my knees"

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[–] universe56 17 years ago

first of all i'm talking about the genetic method, not chest fever. Secondly, rick and rich are dead. Thirdly you must have missed my point about how levon has a great deal to do with the band's success, lead singer on the weight, up on cripple creek(only top 10 hit). And when you hear those songs used in commercials or movies who's getting the money? Robbie. let levon be angry then. you wouldn't be a little upset to hear your voice singing a song on a commercial all the time or in a movie and know you're not getting your due.

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[–] Boogie_Knight 17 years ago

"first of all i'm talking about the genetic method, not chest fever"

Which on Wikipedia and my version of the CD (the latest one) is credited "G.Hudson." The only version that had it Robertson/Hudson are some versions which combined the two tracks into one.

"Secondly, rick and rich are dead."

Indeed. The reason Robbie wanted to pull The Band off the road is because of the dire conditions of Richard and Rick, and because life on the road increased their problems. So The Band goes back on the road without Robbie. Richard ends up hanging himself after a gig. Years later, Rick dies far too young, his health spent after forty years of heroin addiction, mostly while on the road.

So how is Robbie the bad guy?

" Thirdly you must have missed my point about how levon has a great deal to do with the band's success, lead singer on the weight, up on cripple creek(only top 10 hit)"

Was that a "point"? How well would have Levon done without Robbie's songs to sing? What would they have done...Chuck Berry covers? Traditional standards? Dylan songs? What exactly?

And Levon has been very richly rewarded by recording royalties and touring
revenues.

"And when you hear those songs used in commercials or movies who's getting the money? Robbie. "

Yes, the songwriter gets the songwriter royalities. How can we make you understand this?

Levon too is getting money through recording royalties though.

"let levon be angry then. you wouldn't be a little upset to hear your voice singing a song on a commercial all the time or in a movie and know you're not getting your due."

No, but that's because I'm more emotionally mature than Levon, and understand that writing a song is not the same as singing a song.

Just like Roger Daltrey is not upset that he does not get royalties from the Who songs that Peter Townsed wrote but that he sang.

Just like Ringo is not upset for not getting songwriting credit for "With a Little Help from my friends" and "Yellow Submarine", not to mention all his drumming.

Just like Joan Baez is not upset that she does not getting writer's royalties for "The Night they Drove Old Dixie Down", even though her version was far more popular than The Band's.

Because pretty much everyone in the world except Levon, you, and Levon's small group of fanatic supporters understand that there is a difference between writing a song and playing/singing a song. Everyone plays by the same rules. You can't change them just because one deluded old cracker is pissed off.

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[–] universe56 17 years ago

all i'm saying is on my copy of rock of ages it says robertson-hudson under the genetic method, separate from chest fever, how do you explain that?? it is an improvised organ solo by garth??

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[–] Belfast_Cowboy 17 years ago

All you were saying is that you don't understand why it says Robertson-Hudson under genetic method? Well that I can't understand, but I can explain to you that everyone in the world doesn't get royalties for merely singing. Also, if correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Levon who wrote a Robbie bashing book only to show him in a bad light. Well...thats kind of rude when Levon plays Robbie written songs at his concerts.

"I feel the freeze down in my knees"

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[–] universe56 17 years ago

you do agree that without levon singing those songs they wouldn't have been as great? I hate the version of the night by joan baez( okay, maybe not hate, but it's way too fast and upbeat for what is supposed to be a dramatic song.)

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[–] Boogie_Knight 17 years ago

My guess is that the whole Genetic Fever thing was just a liner note error. Some versions of the notes combined Chest Fever/Genetic Method into one song, creating confusing early on. There are no cover version of the Genetic Method. It is not used for commercials. It's not like anyone makes money off it.

Yes, Levon improved the songs he sang...and that's called BEING THE SINGER, not BEING THE SONG WRITER.

How great would it have been if Levon was just making random noises instead of actually having songs to sing?

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[–] Belfast_Cowboy 17 years ago

I like how Boogie Knight always says exactly what I am thinking coherently. I agree it is called "BEING THE SINGER, not BEING THE SONG WRITER. "

"I feel the freeze down in my knees"

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[–] Vendboygreg 15 years ago

Levon is just a bitter bastard. I've played in a band for over 10 years now, and I've dealt with band members like Levon. Just because you sing backup or play a generic drum beat to a song that someone else has completed, that doesn't earn you a songwriting credit.

--Insert clever signature here --

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[–] laibach-1 14 years ago

It's impossible to tell how much Levon contributed to any given song, let alone if Robertson indeed was the solo songwriter on any of them. To assume that Levon did nothing when there is no way to tell just makes you look ignorant.

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[–] chefsal 13 years ago

Meanwhile, you're quoting Chest Fever. A song credited to Robbie Robertson, but lyrics improvised and sung by Levon and Danko. Robbie says himself they were improvised and probably meaningless. So, does just writing the music, but not the lyrics, get you sole songwriting credit? Is the singer just making it sound good, or part of writing this song.

Robbie didn't write complete songs and tell the Band to play them that way. Yes, he was the principal songwriter, but what you heard on the album was composed and recorded by a group.

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[–] benedictarnold67 13 years ago

i don't think you understand the point of contention as far as the songwriting credits go. the point of levon's gripe is that the band wrote collaboratively. i've been in a number of bands and most of my friends are also in bands and different bands have different processes for songwriting. there are some bands where individual members will write a song on their own and bring it in and show it to the group to play. others (like the band) kind of noodle around and jam together until some good rhythmic or melodic themes develop into a song. most of the bands i've been in have a little of both and, when the song develops out of the group playing together, it's credited to everyone who was in on it, contributing to the overall composition even if, as in the case of the band, one guy then sits and writes out the lyrics. there is more to songwriting than being the one who comes up with the words. so, yes, sometimes playing an instrument in a song does make you a songwriter.
as for the fact that only levon has been public about it doesn't necessarily mean he's the only one who sees it for what it is. i think the other guys just don't have that kind of temperament to fight it. also, i can imagine that being screwed like that from someone you had been so close to for so long would make it a difficult subject to be assertive in addressing, especially since any attempt to get their fair due would likely involve a long, costly, bitter and highly public legal battle which could do more harm than good (and it could have ended up being a very long time before they would actually see returns on the litigation).

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Loomis_Orange 14 years ago

Levon was the first guy Ronnie took on. You must be blinded by lust or something. Levon and Ronnie met back in Arkansas. Levon's from Marvell and Ronnie was from Huntsville. Together they went to Canada with the other guys. The other guys eventually got homesick and went back home to the south and that's when Ronnie was forced to pick up Canadians, one by one. Robbie was a snot-nose kid who hung out at the shows just hoping that Ronnie would notice him. Ronnie has said that Robbie's MOTHER begged Ronnie to give him a job "doing something" so "the kid" wouldn't end up in jail. You stomped your own credibility into the ground on the first sentence, babe! Robbie can do no wrong IN YOUR EYES? And what eyes are those? Were you hangin on the door like a bat watchin it all come down?
I didn't think so.
Apparently you don't know how crabs work. You said he was straight forward? Not so much. He sits in front of an interviewer and turns the old rehasher on full blast half-baking his way through with the same thing he said in a million other interviews, or else the wheels in his head begin spinning new yarns. You can almost hear the hum.

What are you, blinded by his Carny days when he was tall ,dark and all heavy-lidded and alluring? Well, his apricot scarfed, King of Hollywood daze is over? Back when he was so coked up he couldn't hardly stand.

You heard the new record? He's got songs on there he claims we written to make peace with the Robbie Hollywood years when him and "Marty" would sit up all night watching Sam Fuller movies and snortin blow. He sure does heal slow.

You can't tell me that EVERYTHING in Levon's book is nonsense. There's a place in there where Levon said he had a short meeting with Robertson late one night and Robbie told him he wanted to get "off the road". Levon suggested that The Band pick up another guitar player and just go on without him. Robbie said "No" and when Levon said What do you mean by No" Robbie said "we can stop it" That Happened! The wheels were already turning. The Death of that dream wasn't all Robbie's fault, but he pulled the strings. Sebastian had just been born and Dominique was ready to split and RR wanted and NEEDED to get off the road in oder to save his own life and kep his family. There's nothing wrong with doing that. Looking after yourself have to take top billing, but I say he should never have messed with The Band. He should have left them go on. He should have cut his losses and tried to strengthen the things that remained, but instead he wanted the whole enchilada. He wanted to step from the top of the Rock and roll mountain onto the top of the Filmmaker mountain and the both mountains desolved under his feet. Everybody paid. You don't mess with Levon. Levon's one of them Arkansaw boys. He'll wait a lifetime for to pay you back for ripping him. He's as deliberate as a cottonmouth and his sting was deadly. Look how many years it took Robbie to regain his composure and peek his head back out? Yeah, if levon had been lying.. there would have been hell to pay. I'm not one of those ones who say Robbie "killed Rick and Richard" but he doesn't smell like no rose here neither.

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] Loomis_Orange 13 years ago

History is history. Do you know any general music history or did you just take the Going Home video and fill in the blanks? So, just to be sure you're saying what you're saying.. Are you saying that Ronnie hired Robbie before he hired Levon? Please answer. We have things to talk about. I don't hate anyone. I don't look at things through rose-tinted glasses eithtr tho. I am a fan of The Band. Robbie has his own genius, I agree but.. the five guys together always touched me more than the solo stuff. I've been a Band fan since I was about twelve. 1970

Accept Loss ~ Jack Kerouac

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Loomis_Orange 13 years ago

Poor Robbie - Don't look like people are ever going to forget - http://blogs.artinfo.com/artintheair/2011/09/21/gagosian-reunites-bob- dylan-and-robbie-robertson-as-art-world-players/

Accept Loss ~ Jack Kerouac

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[–] zappalover 10 years ago

As a late-comer to this thread, I need to give a shout out to Loomis_Orange's perceptive argument and quote it because its worth repeating:

You can't tell me that EVERYTHING in Levon's book is nonsense. There's a place in there where Levon said he had a short meeting with Robertson late one night and Robbie told him he wanted to get "off the road". Levon suggested that The Band pick up another guitar player and just go on without him. Robbie said "No" and when Levon said What do you mean by No" Robbie said "we can stop it" That Happened! The wheels were already turning. The Death of that dream wasn't all Robbie's fault, but he pulled the strings. Sebastian had just been born and Dominique was ready to split and RR wanted and NEEDED to get off the road in oder to save his own life and kep his family. There's nothing wrong with doing that. Looking after yourself have to take top billing, but I say he should never have messed with The Band. He should have left them go on. He should have cut his losses and tried to strengthen the things that remained, but instead he wanted the whole enchilada. He wanted to step from the top of the Rock and roll mountain onto the top of the Filmmaker mountain and the both mountains desolved under his feet. Everybody paid.

Great post.

Life is a state of mind.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Jason-Y 9 years ago

I think Robertson's speaking on the Last Waltz was not arrogant. However, maybe he shouldn't have stolen all the rights to all the songs from the other band members, that wasn't a cool way to be.

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