Intrinsic Plot Holes - Star Wars (1977) Discussion

[–] FilmBuff (7435) 6 years ago

My understanding was always that Darth Vader was never told about his children, so he never knew to look for Luke, or Leia, anywhere. As for Obi Wan, he and Luke really only had a matter of hours together. If you think through the timeline, Luke meets Obi Wan at around noon, by 5pm Obi Wan is dead, and before bedtime Luke has blown up the Death Star and saved the universe. And of course, I get what you mean-- when Leia appeared in the distress signal, Obi Wan could have said "say, that's your twin sister," but as Lucas hadn't yet decided to make that "a thing," it didn't happen.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

All (mostly) true. I've always considered "I am your father" and "Leia is my sister" to be great twists, but they cause problems with the narrative of A New Hope - mostly the latter because Vader never senses anything special about Leia at all, but both should have come up via Obi-Wan. He certainly shouldn't have lied to Luke about Vader. Actually, one of the weirdest things is the explanation (certain point of view) as to why he doesn't say anything. It would have made more sense for Obi-Wan to just say, "You weren't ready to hear that and it would have compromised your judgement while fighting Vader."

You're right about Vader not looking for children he didn't know existed, either.

But all of that is mostly beside the point. There are plot questions, contrivances, and holes that come up post-sequels and after the prequels that require some logic loops to get over, but almost all of the plot problems with Star Wars come up because of the other films. A New Hope is so tightly scripted that there are very few problems within itself. Only in relief to the other stories does it have flaws.

For instance: almost every space battle in Star Wars should be fought with droid-operated "batting ram" ships going to lightspeed and shattering whole fleets, but that wasn't a "problem" with episodes I-VII until The Last Jedi showed us it was possible.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

For instance: almost every space battle in Star Wars should be fought with droid-operated "batting ram" ships going to lightspeed and shattering whole fleets, but that wasn't a "problem" with episodes I-VII until The Last Jedi showed us it was possible.

Nah. Only when the ship is assumed to have been completely abandoned and the overconfident enemy choose to ignore it until it's too late to do anything about it. As is all but spelled out to the audience in the movie.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

The only thing spelled out was that about 1/3 of an entire fleet can be obliterated by one mid-sized capital ship at lightspeed. The relative sizes of the ships ramming and being rammed indicate that, at the very least, such a tactic should have been used against the second Death Star the second that shield was down. It also should have been used against the star destroyers blocking the Rebel fleet at the end of Return of the Jedi. It should *definitely* have been used by one of the bombers at the beginning of The Last Jedi. The use of a couple expendable ships would have made a joke out of the Trade Federation's blockade. One or two ships could have devastated the first Death Star - at the very least crippling the super-laser and preventing the entire point of the space station. That would almost negate literally decades of Imperial engineering efforts and financial output in one move.

Besides all which, the dialogue in The Last Jedi only indicates that they would have fired on the ship earlier if they had realised what it was doing sooner. That doesn't not presuppose that they would (a) destroy the ship before it made lightspeed or (b) realise any given ship was about to do that. If you took an a-wing and used it on a star destroyer, they lose a star destroyer and you lose an a-wing. I find it hard to believe that they'd figure out that an a-wing was going to lightspeed before it was too late. In the middle of a chaotic battle? Almost no chance.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

That assumes that a ship under direct fire CAN make a jump to light-speed. Every movie prior to and including TLJ suggests that it's not possible.

It's virtually spelled out that Holdo's maneuver was only possible because the over confident FO chose to ignore it until it was too late.

That goes for A-Wings too. It would be a sitting duck as it was preparing to make the jump. The SD gunners would not necessarily be waiting to detect if it was making a jump, it would be under fire and particularly vulnerable as it prepared to jump.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

In literally the first Star Wars movie the Millennium Falcon jumps to lightspeed from Tattooine while being shot by star destroyers.

In Phantom Menace they jump to lightspeed while running a blockade.

And even if that were true, that still wouldn't preclude someone parking an ambush ship outside of a battlefield, plotting their trajectory, waiting for the enemy fleet to move to engage your allies and then slam into the side of them. It wouldn't stop a fight from breaking off, getting "underneath" one of these ships and then lancing through the ship from "below". They could still avoid direct fire and blow up fleets.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

Neither of them were shown taking direct fire at the moment they jumped to light speed though. And neither of them were flying towards the things shooting at them.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

Well, first of all, the fact that they felt they could try to jump to lightspeed while being fired on indicates that they don't think it's impossible to do so.

I don't think any of the other films imply that that's impossible, either. We know that they can't jump to hyperspace without careful navigation. 'But nobody else tries to ram another ship, so we never see anybody discount the possibility based on taking direct fire and still making the jump.

In The Last Jedi, the only time we have direct information on this kind of thing, Hux gives the order to fire on the Raddus, but the impression I get is that he wants to blow up the ship. I don't think it's implying that simply taking a couple laser blasts will stop the Raddus from making the jump.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

Well, first of all, the fact that they felt they could try to jump to light-speed while being fired on indicates that they don't think it's impossible to do so.

I don't think the two instances you refer to actually show them being under fire when they jump.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

Han is definitely under fire. He might not be being hit directly at that moment, but he's certainly at risk of being hit at any second. If that would produce a lightspeed impossibility, he couldn't do it.

The dialogue goes like this:
LUKE: What's that flashing?
HAN: We're losing the deflector shield- Strap yourselves in! I'm gonna make the jump to lightspeed!

I'm hearing a guy in the middle of being hit by laser blasts who is jumping to lightspeed as quickly as possible. No "we have to get clear first". No pause or break, no maneuvering, he's just going to jump. That's what I'm going off of.

reply

[–] FilmBuff (7435) 6 years ago

Yeah, it was very forced, but the best they could do, all things considered. As for droid-operated ships shattering fleets-- I don't think that's a very practical thing. It might work once, if a ship is unprotected and not expecting anything, but it's not the sort of thing that could be implemented as a regular battle plan. It's more a matter of right time/right place, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

It doesn't seem once-in-a-lifetime to me at all to be honest. The power put out by the attack was such that it obliterated 1/3 of the fleet, a fleet who would have had shields up and been quite ready for attack. I can think of dozens of occasions when it would have worked, and dozens of ways to implement a battering-ram kamikaze type attack which would be, as near as the physics of the scene in the Last Jedi made out, impossible to defend against.

reply

[–] FilmBuff (7435) 6 years ago

It's been awhile since I watched The Last Jedi, but what I recall is that the attacking ship was being pursued by a much larger ship, that had its shields off and was closing in to destroy it. The attacking ship did an unexpected about face, and shot forward at light speed, catching the pursuing ship off-guard and more or less warping into the middle of the ship. I'd guess that in the future, the enemy would be prepared for that sort of attack.

The plot point that jumped out at me after watching The Phantom Menace is that Obi Wan Kenobi looks to be mid-60s or older in Star Wars. That means he was mid-40s or even early 50s when portrayed by a 20something Ewen McGregor. Again, they had no idea what was coming in the next two films, let alone the three after that, but it always amused me to wonder what kind of harsh life Kenobi endured to age so drastically in just 19 years.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

I hadn't watched it in ages, either, so I looked up the scene.

Holdo turns the ship around, the Imperial guys think the lightspeed jump is a distraction. Then they realise she's going to ram them. Hux orders them to fire on the ship and Holdo rams the giant star destroyer.

Given that they're in a combat situation and he had time to give that order, it seems reasonable to assume that their shields were up by the time she hits the enemy vessel. She also carves through a massive number of other ships.

As a hypothetical, you could also engage an enemy fleet, have extra kamikaze ships parked outside of sensor range and send them your opponents' coordinates. Your extra guys ramrod them from the side. That's just one of many, many, many ways the lightspeed ram could be used to devastate whole fleets and end nine tenths of all engagements with minimal losses while obliterating foes.

The scene was beautifully shot, but raises so many questions throughout the universe.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

The novel adds that Holdo realised that the ship had now traveled beyond the point of entry for the jump that Poe had programmed in the event of his and Finn's plan paying off. And it was now just behind the pursuing FO fleet instead of ahead of the Raddus .This is what gave her the opportunity to come about and make the jump before the FO realised the implications of the double decoy.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

It shouldn't take long to plug in lightspeed coordinates if what you're aiming for are enemy ships. You point at the ships, tell the computer "forward really fast" and push the "go" button. Han manages to make a non-hit things jump to lightspeed in A New Hope within a minute or so (while needing to slap Luke's hand away from the computer AND fending off star destroyers). Presumably, it took him that long because he was navigating carefully. It should take a lot less time when you're trying to hit a star destroyer.

None of that changes the efficacy of the ram or the questions around using it elsewhere.

Also, movies shouldn't need books to explain themselves (although that's beside the point since, again, I don't see how the lightspeed destination being pre-loaded into the computer changes anything)

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

I don't see how it would be easier to target self propelled ships when navigating massive celestial bodies with predictable paths is considered tricky in itself.

The book doesn't explain it. It just adds Holdo's perspective of having little else to do but come about and engange the hyperdrive. The movie explained the FO's negligence and overconfidence. To put it simply, they allowed Holdo to pull off something which would be virtually impossible under normal circumstances.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

I don't see how normal circumstances would make it impossible. It would be easier to do because you can dispense with navigation entirely. You only navigate around celestial bodies because you're trying to dodge them. If you're trying to hit something, you aim and push "go".

The navigator/pilot just has to aim the ship at another ship and engage the hyperdrive - accelerate the ship up to blink-fast speeds in a forwards direction.

With bullets, you have to lead your target because of their velocity vs. the bullet's trajectory. But with hyperdrive, the acceleration is almost instantaneous (shown in every Star Wars film). You wouldn't need to lead anything. You tell the computer to go "forward" towards the star destroyer (this would be a ridiculously easy target to hit given the size) and it goes forward at such a rate that it shatters that ship and almost every other ship around/behind it, crippling a fleet within seconds. Nobody can outmaneuver it, nobody can get out of they way or dodge it, because it happens so darn quickly. If they could have moved, they would have. If they could have put up shields, they would have. If they could have fired the Raddus from space, they would have. They didn't.

Any angle, any direction, any circumstance would work. It would be rare to find a time it wouldn't work, actually.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

"If you're trying to hit something, you aim and push "go"

How do you know that? When was that conveyed or explained in a movie?

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

i barely remember any of this , but it seems to me that if last Jedi introduced kamikaze lightspeed ships it would indeed raise the question of
"wtf was all that fighting about in the previous 7 films about , when they could have just done that"

an irresponsible move by the writer to negate all the heroism , sarifice , in fact everything that happened thus far reduced to a joke.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

Because in previous battles they didn't have the same negligent overconfidence that the FO command has and is constantly referred to in the movie but which some people wish to ignore.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

"If you're trying to hit something, you aim and push "go"
How do you know that? When was that conveyed or explained in a movie?
-----------------------------------
thats a given. everyone knows that. it applies to all weapons.
pistols , rifles , blasters, catapults, laser cannons, crossbows , torpedoes.
its as obvious as gravity pulls you downwards , and the difference between day and night.

If your argument is reduced to that - you've lost.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

Hyperdrive isn't a weapon.

If that's how you feel about it though, then you should be angry at it not being considered feasible before, rather than at it being used now.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

Well, one of the points of the thread was that A New Hope has few plot holes that are its own fault. Most plot holes with the first Star Wars film come from considering it in relief of the other films. Obi-Wan not telling Luke about Vader and Leia are faults of Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, not A New Hope.

I think if a new film introduces something which retroactively opens up problems and plot holes, that's the new film's fault, not the original. The Last Jedi introduced the concept of the lightspeed suicide attack, it gets to own the flaws of that concept (if there are any) as well as the greatness (if there is any).

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

It doesn't open up a plot hole because we never before saw a ship being ignored by the enemy until it was too late to do anything about it ramming them at the point of entry to hyperspace.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

Being ignored is not the key factor because she could still make that lightspeed jump, and also you could come up with (again) dozens of ways to ambush people or come at them from differing angles to prevent being fired upon. This tactic could have been used on either Death Star, on the ion canon fried star destroyers in Empire, on the droid control ship in Phantom Menace, etc., etc., etc.

Let me put it this way: it took less than forty years for people to go from heavier-than-air flight to kamikaze attacks. Lightspeed existing as it does in Star Wars for howevermany years, somebody before Holdo should have thought of this and employed it.

It's not really a plot hole with the other movies - they didn't invent this. It's a question-raising bit of writing from The Last Jedi.

At the very least, they should have used one (or both) of the other ships in The Last Jedi to ram the imperials chasing them. They could have used the escape pods that Finn and Rose used, too. They could have sent a legion of small-large projectiles at the enemy ships and turned their whole fleet into cosmic dust. But they didn't.

And, again, I do not see any evidence that the tactic wouldn't work even in the thick of combat. Poe demonstrates that you can hyperjump up to an enemy ship while they are watching you. Han Solo flies through a planetary shield in The Force Awakens. The A-Wing that crashes through the super-star destroyer's bridge does so in the thick of combat. If he can do that in regular-speed, he can do it at a much, much faster speed.

There is no reason this shouldn't work.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

In ROTJ. The imperial fleet engage the rebels with the intention of keeping them from escaping. If the rebel ships were able to jump to hyperspace in spite of all this attention then that order would have been completely pointless.

So there are reasons it can't happen they can't succesfully jump in those conditions. The condtions with the Supermacy and the Raddus, Hux commanded his officers to completely ignore the resistance ship. So they were different conditions which allowed Holdo to do what she did.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

Well, I'd argue that the Imperial fleet in Return of the Jedi could stop the Rebels from escaping because they would have destroyed themselves trying to jump through the ships, but not that they would have obliterated the Imperial fleet while doing so.

That's why I have a problem with what The Last Jedi does. Because it changes the dynamic of what happens when a ship hits another ship at hyperspeed. It seemed to be implied (by Han in Star Wars) that you couldn't just fly anywhere. But it was only ever shown in The Last Jedi that you can shatter other ships by doing that.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

It looked to me that it was the energy from the actually entry to hyperspace being refracted as it interacted with the lead ship which caused the knock on effects.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

Well, here's what I know from movies:

Before jumping to lightspeed, they push a bunch of buttons and check a bunch of monitors. That lasts for under ninety seconds, sometimes a lot less. (I assume this is them navigating and making sure they won't plow into a black hole or a star). Then, they push a throttle forward to accelerate (I assume this is activating the lightspeed the same way as every throttle works everywhere else).

Now, I'll buy that lightspeed needs to power up (other ships detect lightspeed activating) but it's always under a minute or so, and some of that has to be navigation. Navigation gets a lot easier when you're just point the ship forward. You don't have to tell it to twist, just "go forward".

From observation: power up hyperdrive, slam it into gear. If you need to avoid supernovae, navigate first.

Occam's razor alone indicates that aiming in a straight line should be easier and that once the throttle is pushed, the acceleration occurs at a fantastic rate (making aiming easier because you don't need to lead a target). If there is information in the films that contradicts this, I don't know what it could be because this is the way they always jump to hyperspeed in the film.

reply

[–] Alerra (244) 4 years ago

There's 32 years in between Phantom and A New Hope, not 19.

10 years between TPM and AOTC
3 years between AOTC and ROTS
19 years between ROTS and ANH

Alec Guinness was 63 in 1977, but let's make him a year younger at the time of filming. For argument's sake, we'll make Obi-wan the same age. If he's 62 in ANH, that would make him 30 in TPM. Ewan McGregor was 26 in 1997, but again, we'll subtract another year to account for production time. So that's a five year difference in age, not 20.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 4 years ago

More interesting, then, is Sebastian Shaw as Anakin in Return of the Jedi. Born in 1905, he was eleven years *senior* to Sir Alec Guinness (1914), making Anakin go from being seventeen years younger than Obi-Wan (Jake Lloyd to Ewan McGregor), to being ten years younger (Hayden Christensen to McGregor), to surpassing his teacher and gaining eleven years.

Being a Sith and yielding to the Dark Side ages one prematurely...?

reply

[–] FilmBuff (7435) 4 years ago

The point I was making is that Obi-Wan looks to have aged far, far more than 19 years between Revenge of the Sith and the original Star Wars. He goes from looking about 25 to looking about 85 in the span of 18 or 19 years.

reply

[–] Hans-Wilhelm (1372) 6 years ago

I think you take those times a little too literally by equating elapsed time on the screen vs. what is happening in real life. I wouldn't be surprised if these events took place over several days.

reply

[–] FilmBuff (7435) 6 years ago

Where would there be time for a break of a day or two? The events happen in one uninterrupted sequence. It's pretty clear that it takes place over the course of a day.

reply

[–] Hans-Wilhelm (1372) 6 years ago

Maybe.

You just assume though. Just because it isn't shown on screen doesn't mean it doesn't happen....just like using the bathroom and showers, they don't have to literally show everything.

Traveling to Mos Eisley. That may have taken a day. Luke may have stayed at Obi Wan's overnight before setting out in the morning. Selling the speeder and departing...they may have had to stay overnight there. The trip to Alderaan, that may have taken a day or days. The trip from the Death Star to Yavin. Just because it was shown for five minutes on the screen is no hard evidence that is a literal time line. Hyperdrive is fast but there is no standing understand a ship can fly from one side of a galaxy to another in two hours.

Were Tatooine and Alderaan neighbors or on opposite sides of the galaxy? Who knows. Then how far is it from Alderaan to Yavin?

They don't mention these things in the film. Therefore you are just assuming all of these travels and events lasted only a couple of hours. Who knows they may have taken days. It is tough to image doing all of this in just one day. Wake up on the farm and then take two separate journeys across the galaxy, have a pit stop on a super weapon Death Star and be involved in a galactic changing Death Star attack battle all before the sun goes down. That seems far fetched.

Where would time be? They'd obviously sleep....sleep in lodgings in Mos Eisley, sleep in the Falcon...etc. I don't think they've ever shown anyone sleep during their travels....that isn't a needed scene and important to the films. Based on your assumptions Luke spent a couple of hours on Dagobah and the falcon spent a couple of hours fleeing the Empire. Hoth to asteroid to Bespin....hours. That's all they show on screen.

You are just assuming. You may be right, that may be how George intended it, but just because they don't literally show every day, show characters sleeping and show the down time of travel doesn't mean that doesn't occur.

reply

[–] MAGolding (1240) 4 years ago

I do not know how long Star wars takes place over.

But apparently the trip fro the Alderansystem to Yavintakes less than a Star Wars day.

Darth Vader says: "This is a day that willlong be remembered. It has seen the end of Kenobi and it will see the end of the rebellion."

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

How come the tractor beam wasn't used on the rebels attacking the death start the way it was against the Falcon earlier in the film?

Even if they were not aware that the tractor beam had been deactivated by Obi-Wan, they would surely have tried it, then realised the problem and solved it as easily as it was for Kenobi to cause it.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

That's a fair one.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

The Jedi Of Old had to train from early childhood to adulthood to become Jedi, but Luke managed it after a couple of hours with Ben and a couple of days with Yoda.

Which may not be as big a contradiction as it seems on the surface. It may be that someone with mega-powerful inborn Force capabilities can master the basics of using their powers in a very short period of time... but it would be a great idea if they spent years and years learning how to use that power *wisely*! And that includes learning about everything what can, will, and has gone wrong for Jedi who didnt think things through.

Which BTW is yet another thing that wasnt a problem in the original films.

reply

[–] Martoto (5187) 6 years ago

If you infer pseudo-scientific values in the length of the training/probationary period that the Jedi order put its "recruits" through before allowing them to become Jedi knights and confuse them with the minimum requirements to be able to use the force, then it creates a plot hole.

If you just perceive what the Jedi do and say to be their stated policy to ensure that members of its order use their potential wisely, ethically, responsibly and, most importantly, in strict obedience to the order and the Republic which gives it its mandate, and a different thing from what it actually takes to be able to use the force, then it's not a plot hole.

Fans don't really know how the force works. But they know what the Jedi do and what they say needs to be done. Which is good enough for some fans to call foul on Luke or Rey or whomever's display of force use without a decade of tied to the hip apprenticeship.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

Excellent point there.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

Of course all this extremely sensible talk about the proper training of Jedi is all inference and conjecture, because Lucas didn't really put any of this stuff on screen. What he actually showed us was Luke having full-blown powers and calling himself a "Jedi" with about three days of known training, and Obi-Wan still being a Padwaman after 15-20 years at Jedi school.

But I do like to think that Jedi spent most of their school days learning what *not* to do with The Force, because we've seen both Luke and Rey make some pretty big blunders when floundering around trying to figure out what to do with their newfound powers. If The Jedi Of Old had any sense, they'd try to minimize damage from youthful mistakes, and keep the little bastards from doing any harm until they had enough training to do it right.

I like to think of it this way: If I'm right about Lucas's intentions, the difference between a proper Jedi and an untrained Force prodigy like Luke is like... the difference between a good board-certified surgeon and a good army medic. If you take a bullet the army medic may well be able to save your life, but he or she will do so without the surgeon's years of training in anatomy, physiology, types of surgery and their probable outcomes, experience in surgery and knowledge of likely outcomes, peer-reviewed research materials, etc. I mean you're alive either way, but the good surgeon has a hell of a lot more understanding what they're doing and why.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

That's not a plot hole with the original Star Wars, only a real problem with Return of the Jedi and the sequels.

Luke doesn't become a Jedi in Star Wars, he just "takes a first step into a larger world." Only at the end of the movie with beyond-the-grave help from Obi-Wan does Luke manage to use just enough Force to aid him in aiming missiles.

In Empire, Luke has been practicing between films (an unclear amount of time - could've been awhile) because he can move the lightsabre in the wompa's cave. Then he trains with Yoda (another unclear amount of time), which does seem like not enough time to be a Jedi. He leaves, still not great at using the Force. Yoda saying his training is incomplete.

Only in Return of the Jedi does he seem to be a full Jedi demi-god with no real explanation.

The sequels give less time to Rey's training and allow her more power.

Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens have some 'splainin' to do, but not A New Hope.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

Lucas did seem to pay less and less attention to continuity as he went along, didn't he.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

Sure did. Obi-Wan calling Yoda the "Jedi master who instructed me" still makes my head spin, since Qui-Gon was obviously the pointman on that (even if Yoda instructed Obi-Wan at some point, that seems more like a loophole).

Ironically, when Luke asks about Vader in Return of the Jedi, I find Obi-Wan's response to be needlessly complicated. He could have just said, "Luke, if I told you that your father was one of the Empire's top leaders, an evil man, and the man we were actively fighting, it might have broken you and made you unable to accomplish what you did."

Though, that still doesn't explain about not warning Luke about, say, never kissing his twin sister.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

I'm willing to forgive Obi-Wan your first point, because it looked like Yoda's regular job with the Jedi was instructing the little sprats who weren't any taller than he was. So he was probably Obi-Wan's first teacher, the one who first taught him the ways of the Jedi and who got him through the trauma of being taken away from his family and being told he should never care about them again. (No fan of the Jedi, I am!)

But yeah, Obi-Wan lied like a rug to Luke! I mean the kid seemed like such a dope that he could have told Luke that the Rebellion was staffed by androids made of cheese and he'd have bought it, but still. That's no way to treat someone you want as an ally.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

Mad props for "lie like a rug".

You're right: Yoda probably taught everybody. But that makes "trained by Yoda" kinda not that special any more.

I think one of the worst things the prequels did was turn Yoda into a politician with a teaching job. He was a career man. The way I see it: he should have been on Dagobah. Always there, being wise, taking on worthy students who come to him. Not sitting in some ivory tower over a bustling metropolis worrying about politics and stuff.

"Wars not make one great," and then he's a general leading clone troopers, throwing his laser sword into battle droids and it just...it makes me sad just thinking about it.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

You know, I never thought about what I expected for Yoda's role in the Jedi order, and now that you've made me consider the point... I'm okay with him being an elementary instructor. I'm still horrified that the Jedi take little kids away from their families and forbid them to form attachments, which would have been psychologically devastating for every child there and not just Anakin, but having Yoda there for the little sprats makes me feel a tiny bit better about what they went through. He's shown as loving the kids and appreciating them for being exactly what they are, which isn't the same as attachment to the family of origin like a normal person, but it's something.

But yeah, the way Ben turns out to have lied to Luke is unconscionable, and if he'd lived, it would have been a huge problem between them. Or not, Luke was desperate enough for guidance that he might have forgiven what most people would resent for a long, long, time.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

I have no problem with the Jedi in Episodes IV-VI; they're fine then. They are warrior-monks who study and try to better themselves and help or protect those around them. That's basically it. I don't understand the rules of the Order in Episodes I-III and I just sorta ignore that part of the mythos.

I have to imagine that, at the very least, the kids are free to leave at any time. And, yes, Yoda as a teacher isn't a problem for me so much as his political placements. But I still think he should've been more of a guru on a mountaintop, as it were, than an elementary teacher.

I think Luke would have forgiven Obi-Wan. He seems more confused than angry in VI when he asks about it at Dagobah.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

I have huge problems with the Jedi as shown in the prequels, and the way they make Anakin separate from his mother. And the way the Jedi abandon her too, they take her kid away and leave her in slavery? And tell the kid never to think about her again? And don't come back to free her or maybe settle her on Naboo or something? Where's their commitment to goodness then, or just common decency! Or scientific interest in a woman who can give virgin birth to Force prodigies!

Of course Anakin's separation from his mother and the ban on "attachments" are all meant to drive the plot more than to give us information about the Jedi. Because George want a forbidden love he has to make the Jedi forbid love from an inappropriately early age, and because he wants to make his anti-hero rebel against the Jedi he has the Jedi behaving like assholes.

It's all horribly clumsy writing (George!), and not very plausible, and it still isn't the worst thing about the prequels. But the fact is, the Jedi are shown as taking a kid of 8 or 9 away from his mother, making him abandon her in dire circumstances, and tell her that he shouldn't think about her or care about her, AND that he's too old to begin the training. It's the business of developing humans to form attachments and to rely on them, and interfering with the attachment process causes psychological damage and the earlier it starts the worse the damage. And if the treatment of Anakin is anything like routine, it's what the Jedi do to all their recruits.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

100% agree.

The Jedi were fleshed out poorly in the prequels which makes them seem really rotten, myopic, and silly. It would have taken a defter touch than Lucas', apparently, to make that come about. It's a big disappointment and one of many, many reasons why the prequels were such a let-down.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

The Jedi were SO horrid in the prequels, that either...

… we were seeing the last years of a Jedi order in decline, one hidebound by bureaucracy, politics, and being so focused on not doing anything wrong that they'd forgotten how to do anything genuinely good.

… or, Lucas didn't give a rat's ass about the Jedi Order or what the fans would think about them, and didn't give them any real thought while writing his clumsy love story.

It's one or the other, not both.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 6 years ago

I think it's the latter. I'm reading between the lines here, but I think Lucas was writing "Big Drama" in his head. I base this on the "feel" of the scenes. The way they're directed seems to indicate that Yoda and Mace Windu are wise and learned Jedi knights and highly respected, always making Wise actions. He directs the scenes of love to be tense and Dramatic - without, seemingly, an appreciation for what actually builds tension or drama.

Yes, I believe the Jedi to be one of many, many victims in the Star Wars canon to those people who are trying to tell the Biggest Story of Them All. They wind up putting story second and dramatic moments first.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Good points.

reply

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

[deleted]

[–] CoriSCapnSkip (2751) 3 years ago

I did wonder about Luke retaining his father's surname and staying with people related to his father by marriage when he was supposed to be in hiding.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 3 years ago

That is an odd choice, particularly staying with family, but it could be a "hide in plain sight" kind of thing. I'm also assuming that any birth records/ paperwork from the outer rim might not be making it to Coruscant, and Darth Vader had other things on his mind at the time, establishing the Empire and all.

That said, that stuff does fall into the extra-Episode IV category. In 1977, when this film was made and seen, none of that would be a narrative problem at all.

When The Empire Strikes Back came out, we learn that "Skywalker" was once Vader's last name, but it might have been the case that Luke's family once lived in a different star system and then fled to hide on Tattooine (which would make WAY more sense, if you think about it). So the plot hole, or plot contrivance, doesn't really show up until 1999 with The Phantom Menace when we find out that's Vader's homeworld, and then in Episode II, it's solidified as a contrivance by having Anakin meet Owen and Beru there.

reply

[–] melissah1982 (883) 3 years ago

Agree. It's one of those plot points that keeps getting muckier and muckier the more movies they made and the more they try and explain it. In 1977 standards, before Vader being Luke's father was a thing, you can easily just say Vader killed Luke's father and he was left an orphan nothing more. They never searched for him because there was legit no reason too. No different than a fallen soldier leaving a son behind at home. It's the tying Vader to Luke that's the real plot hole but it's such a gripping storyline that no one really cares. we love it regardless of the "hey...wait a minute...." questions that were created from it.

reply

[–] Ace_Spade (9657) 3 years ago

100%, this.

Even with Empire, it wasn't a big plot hole, because we can imagine (for instance) that they fled into hiding and that "Skywalker" is a common last name in a galaxy of billions, and that Tattooine is such an obscure backwater that the Empire can't find people there, anyway.

It's a bit more of a problem with Jedi's plot twist regarding Leia, and a bit more with TPM and so on right up to cockamammie stuff going on in the sequels.

reply