There were two guys D'Hubert spent a long time looking at that were frozen. From what I could tell they were his second and Feraud's second, but I'm not sure as they were frozen with huge beards. Anyone know for sure?
shareSee my post of 3 days ago as below:
After the title card of "Russia 1812" we have an image of the devastating cold in Russia during the retreat from Moscow with D'Hubert looking at a frozen French soldier sitting next to a cannon. The dead soldier has his back to the camera so at first we don't see his face. Later in this segement of the story D'Hubert and Feraud have a rare moment of unity teaming up to check a wood that "stinks of Cossacks". They are confronted by some Cossacks while they are standing next to an abandoned carriage also with a frozen French soldier sitting beside it. D'Hubert and Feraud are almost about to start their feud again when they are surprised by the Cossacks and they both discharge their weapons. With a pistol duel now no longer possible Feraud loots the Cossack's body and walks off, ignoring D'Hubert's offer of schnapps. D'Hubert is left alone by the carriage and stares at the frozen French soldier propped up on the carriage. This reminds him of the first frozen soldier that we saw in the earlier scene by the cannon and we discover why it has stuck in his memory as the first soldier was one of his "enemies" the friend of Feraud played by Maurice Colbourne. The second soldier by the carriage/wagon was NOT Lacourbe (played by Alun Armstrong) but just a random soldier which triggered a flashback to the earlier scene.
The way I see it is that the first guy who's face we don't see is Feraud second. Later Carradine see's Alun Armstrong who is frozen which was his own second which causes the flashback to start showing us that the person he was was Feraud's second. This way it comes full circle, as why would he care about remembering Feraud second when there are hundreds of soldiers frozen everywhere?
shareNo arbino-man, I believe you are mistaken. I have watched this film many, many times. The second French soldier frozen by the cart where D'Hubert (Carradine) and Feraud (Keitel) are surprised by Cossacks is definitely not Lacourbe (D'Hubert's second played by Alun Armstrong). I am a very big fan of that actor's work and know his face well. It is just a random soldier in a similar position which reminds D'Hubert of the scene he has seen earlier (and which we had seen at the start of the Russia sequence) and now we discover the first soldier (whose face we did not see at first) was Feraud's second (played by Maurice Colbourne).
I know it is only a minor point but it des not make sense that D'Hubert would walk around that cart and not recognise Lacourbe straight away and then, while pondering looking at his friend would trigger a memory of Feraud's second (instead of, say, memories of times with his friend).The second random soldier was a trigger to flashback to the earlier scene and we finally learn the identity of the first soldier, of whom the viewer might have been thinking, "Was it Chevalier? Was it Lacourbe? No, it was Feraud's second"It was the payoff to the mini mystery of the identity of the first soldier at the beginning of the Russia segment.
I don't think his mind would have been on the frozen soldier when he first arrived as he was about to duel with Feraud. Once the situation was calm is when he noticed the soldier whom is Lacorbe. His nose looks exactly like Armstrongs, but it's a bit hard to tell it's him as he has a full beard, is frozen over, is wearing a hat, and has his eyes closed. Still, I'm about 99% sure it's him and even if it's not Armstrong I'm pretty sure it's meant to be his character.
Otherwise, why show a flashback of Feraud's second? What would warrant a flashback to the second besides D'Hubert own second being frozen. It shows us how intertwined these characters really are. They may be different, yet are so similar.
It wouldn't make a lick of sense to show Feraud's frozen second otherwise.
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Honestly there really is no evidence 100% either way, unless we go and read the actual story this is based on or we contact Ridley Scott.
Either way,I know it's him and you know it's not him. Still if you think about it logically it makes sense that it is him otherwise what's the point?
You won't accept visual evidence. If you have the DVD, freeze frame it on the picture of the second frozen soldier by the cart where D'Hubert and Feraud meet the Cossacks. Then get a picture of Alun Armstrong on your computer (use whatever role you like - Thenardier, Wackford Squeers, Brian Lane from New Tricks, Hiram Grewgious from Mystery of Edwin Drood, Flintwich from Little Dorrit) and then hold one closely next to the other. The extra is not Alun Armstrong.
You won't accept the logical purpose of the scene. In your view D'Hubert and Feraud leave their group of French soldiers to look out for Cossacks in a nearby wood. They walk up to a cart which has a dead horse at the front, at least two dead soldiers inside, and one dead soldier outside propped up against the wheel. Feraud walks right past the soldier propped up against the wheel, looks right at him but shows no sign of recognition. D'Hubert stands right beside the dead soldier and shows no sign of recognition even though (in your view)it is the dead body of one of his closest friends. D'Hubert and Feraud almost duel, but they are interupted by the Cossacks. When Feraud walks away D"Hubert looks right at the frozen soldier. In your view D'Hubert then recognises it is Lacourbe and instead of thinking about past times with this friend (surely the film maker would show flashbacks of Lacourbe at this point in case we missed recognising Lacourbe with a heavy beard, blue face and snow covered features)he instead immediately thinks of seeing Feraud's second (played by Colbourne) earlier in the retreat. And you think this makes more sense and is more logical!?
In my view Ridley Scott has set up this mini mystery at the start of the Russia segment. We see D'Hubert looking at a frozen soldier by a cannon. We don't see the soldier's face. We wonder what it means. After the encounter with the Cossacks D'Hubert looks at a second (random) soldier. This reminds him of the earlier sight. Scott takes us back to the earlier image. We are then wondering - will we now find out who the first soldier was? Will it be one of D'Hubert's friends? No, we finally find out it was Feraud's second.
Finally, in the DVD commentary, Ridley Scott talks about these scenes being shot in the Cairngorms in Scotland and that the soldier extras were local university students. He makes a comment that there was little snow at first during the filming so that initially "film snow" had to be added. Yet, for the scene with the cart Scott mentions that it did snow that day and real snow was put on Keith Carradine for the shot where he got up to join Keitel to search for Cossacks. We then see Carradine and Keitel walking along in the snow and in the foreground is a dead soldier laid out on the ground. Scott mentions it is not a dummy but just some guy, an extra. Yet when he gets to the cart scene he does not mention that he had to have one of his main cast members sit there motionless for some time for this scene,saying something like "and poor Alun, he had to sit there for hours while we filmed this". I think Scott would have if it was one of his main actors as the second frozen soldier, and not just an extra. Scott does mention, when we flash back to Colbourne, that he was disappointed that Colbourne's eyes flickered for the final close up (sadly Scott doesn't mention Colbourne by name, otherwise it would be the coup de grace for your argument)
Wow. That post was a bit...excessive? It looks like Alun Armstrong to me. The nose is pitch perfect, so even though you went ahead and wrote a mini essay on the matter, that's not going to change my mind.
It's not that big of a deal. I think it's Armstrong and you do not. From the storys natural progression it makes sense that it is him, not taking into account that it actually looks like him. The character was D'Huberts best friend and you would figure he would show up later in the film. However, that doesn't happen, because? It was him frozen by cart.
The only way we are going to get a straight answer is if we get the book in front of us and found out what it says. Why didn't any of the other frozen solidiers trigger the flashback? Because it took D'Hurbert seeing his own second to remind him of Feraud's second.
Indeed, I feel that maybe Armstrong wasn't available that day or wasn't obliged to sit in on a scene all day where he says nothing and they just made someone up to look pretty much like him.
The fact that both of the leads lose their best friends pointlessly to hunger and cold on the battlefield just makes it all the more poignant. It's a great levelling scene.
Oh and one other point. I would always take what Ridley Scott says about his movies with a pinch of salt.
If you read and look back at interviews he has done on his movies, his opinions and reasons on things appear to change with the wind. He's not really a reliable source for confirmation unfortunately.
A copy of the script would help.
Wow. That post was a bit...excessive?
It looks like Alun Armstrong to me.
not taking into account that it actually looks like him.
is if we get the book in front of us and found out what it says.
it took D'Hurbert seeing his own second to remind him of Feraud's second.
There is a faction that believes you are mistaken, Cracklight. Read the thread titles "Two scenes I really liked" just above or below this one for our take on the two men. The first one's eyelids moved, d'H saw them. And the second one was the officer who was almost ready to accost d'H before Jenny hopped off the wagon in town, a few scenes back.
Feraud sent those two out there to finish the job, just in case he should be killed. He was such a fanatic that he couldn't abide the thought that d'H would live past his (Feraud's) own death.
The dude aganist the wagon was dead. When we later see Ferauds second close up, if you listen to the Ridley Scott's commentary he said that he blinks and he wish he had a larger budget as he would have just used a molded head instead of a live actor.
shareObviously you are not alone in your view on this point arbino man, which I find staggering, but, as you say, it is not a big issue. I apologise for getting so worked up and have tried to edit my posts to be more civil.
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