MovieChat Forums > Poldark (1977) Discussion > Elizabeth and Ross and Demelza

Elizabeth and Ross and Demelza

posted 18 years ago by randommovies2002
28 replies | jump to latest

What do you think about Ross/Elizabeth as a couple?

I don't believe they would have made it as a couple. I'm so glad that circumstances (and Elizabeth's stubbornness!) prevented them from marrying.

Elizabeth is a cold fish. Ross is a very passionate person; he cares a great deal for the plight of people in reduced circumstances, and people who are suffering. Elizabeth, OTOH, could care less about the poor and unfortunate and would just as soon shake the dust of them form her shoes!

Demelza shares Ross' passion and his caring nature. They have a lot in common. She makes a very good partner for him because she is his equal in many ways: verbal dueling, passionate, caring for others, etc.

I love that scene at the very end of the last episode of serioes 1, when Ross and Demelza frolic on the beach. can you picture Elizabeth like that with Ross (or with ANYONE, for that matter?)? I just can't. I think she is a very cold fish and Ross would have been extrememly unhappy with her as his life partner.

Finally, I'd love people's input about Ross' visit to Trenwith before the impending raid. When Warleggan orders his goons on Ross, Elizabeth's only response is to interject, telling him, "NOT HERE!" She knows that they're probably going to kill Ross, and all she cares about is that they don't do it at Trenwith? She condoned Ross' murder! Grrrr! I can't stand her!

[–] melj 18 years ago

I completely agree that Ross and Elizabeth would have been a disastrous couple. After a couple of months at the aboslute most, they would have made each other utterly miserable. I first realised this for certain when Ross and Demelza helped Mark Daniel to escape; I simply could not imagine Elizabeth coping in any of Ross' adventures. I think she was right to break off their engagement as I can totally appreciate that Ross' passionate nature was too much for her. Her subsequent change of heart was surely more because of her lack of fulfilment and plain boredom with Francis than that she really loved Ross.

Elizabeth is rather a two-dimensional character in the first series and George Warleggan borders on caricature. In the second series they are both more fleshed-out and even quite sympathetic at times.

I hate people who pretend they're superior; it makes it much harder for those of us who really are.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] NewBeginnings16 18 years ago

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There is an argument between her and Ross when he breaks inot the prison to rescue Jim and she has been to a ball becauase she is not that interested in his angry passion about hte issue of Jim going to prison....
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Sorry, but I believe you've gotten 2 scenes from the book mixed up.
When Demelza thinks Ross has gone to Elizabeth again (after Ross raped Elizabeth) she goes to the ball and doesn't have sex with McNeil.

When Ross goes to rescue Jim (with Dwight), Demelza is still a servant and has put on a gown that had belonged to his mother. When he returns and tells her that Jim is dead she reacts sadly, feeling sorry for Jinny.
She had plans to seduce Ross but he chastized her for wearing his mother's clothes. She tells him she'll leave in the morning. He apologizes (then wonders why he did so) and she goes off to bed. As HE is getting ready for bed she knocks on his door and tells him she can't undo the hooks on the dress - he un-does them and they sleep together for the 1st time.
Elizabeth shows up the next day and it's obvious she's testing the waters of starting a relationship with Ross. When she sees Demelza she realizes that it's too late. Demelza (being very attuned to people) relalizes this too and that Elizabeth is one day too late.
A few weeks later Ross and Demelza marry.

I've probably read each book in the series at least 15 times, so I'm pretty sure of the above paragraph.

I only saw the BBC/Masterpiece Theatre series (I and II) once - when it originally aired in the 1970s.

"Power Corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] thatsnumberwang 15 years ago

I have only seen the TV series and have not read any of the books, but from what I saw in the series alone, it didn't seem like Ross raped Elizabeth. He may have come on strong to her and she was surprised, but to me it didn't come off as rape. In the next scene when they were lying in bed, she wasn't crying or upset but calm with a look on her face that was like, "I can't believe I just did that." Seemed more like an unexpected one night stand to me.

So in the book was it made out to be a rape?

http://saucybetty.blogspot.com

[–] randommovies2002 15 years ago

So in the book was it made out to be a rape?

That's difficult to say, definitively. It's still kind of left open in the novels. There are a couple of references to it later when Elizabeth is recalling what happened; her thoughts indicate it might have been a rape, but then later she also has thoughts indicating that she wanted to give in.

Ross also thinks about it later, and "sort of" admits to himself that he "forced" Elizabeth, but that she was also willing eventually. So I can't really say for certain. Sometimes I think he did rape her, others I think he coerced her, and when she finally gave in it was because she wanted to.

I wonder if Winston Graham ever commented on this, clarifying what his intentions were?

In any case, I agree with you that it was not a rape in the miniseries.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] demelza3000 17 years ago

This love triangle has fascinated me for 30 years - since I first saw the TV series. So much so, that I have used the name "Demelza" in my user ID's since I first logged on to the internet.

It is obvious that Ross and Demelza were meant to be. In the first episode, Elizabeth tells Ross that she won't break up with Francis to be with him because he has a "dark" side that scares her. From the very beginning we learn that Elizabeth doesn't "get" Ross, she doesn't understand why he does the things he does. Their attraction is purely physical and it is only the hope that reality will someday match the fantasy that keeps them moving around each other.

The relationship of Ross and Demelza is based more in reality, and their mutual love is deepened through shared experience and understanding. I am just getting to rewatch this series for the first time since the 70's. I am not far in, but loving every minute of it. I agree that Elizabeth is a cold fish. Other than beauty, she doesn't have much else going on. Demelza is a joy to watch and a spitfire in the spunk department. And unlike Mr. Grant from the Mary Tyler Moore show, I DO like spunk.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] whateverfour20110 17 years ago

The truth is the Elizabeth had beauty, class, culture, deportment and intelligence. Demelza, on the other hand, was an ignorant slut.

I am sure that every guy on this blog, if given the chance in real life, would have ran over Demelza to get to Elizabeth. Though, I doubt, they would have ever had the chance.

I am sure that Demelza would be a very good choice for a long weekend. But, after listening to that voice for that long a time, the end wouldn't come too soon.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] charles-court 17 years ago

Ha, just like a man to say that. Just goes to show you do not really understand the dynamics of the three.
What Ross needed was a woman who could match him, work with him, live with him and love him (pick me, pick me). Elizabeth would not have lasted five minutes, she was perfectly suited to George Warlegan. Her character was firmly fixed in the first tv series when she tried to stop Ross marrying Demelza when he found out she was having his child. She could not stand that he would not be manipulated, when she had not given up marrying Francis four years before.
Elizabeth was aloof from the start and not at all suited to the kind of life required when the Poldarks were struggling, could you imagine her living at Nampara and supporting Ross when he was nearly broke, I don't think so.
Of course the books are a lot better than the tv series but Robin Ellis is just the best.

[–] GladtobeGrey 17 years ago

Excuse me, but Demelza was most definitely NOT a slut! The TV version drifted so dramatically away from Winston Graham's original book that during production on the first series he wanted nothing to do with it and in fact was very cross about the changes. In the book 'Ross Poldark' Ross and Demelza meet at the fair. He sees her trying to separate a dog and a cat who have been tied together by a group of boys and are fighting to get away from each other. The boys attack Demelza for spoiling their 'fun' and Ross, also unable to bear cruelty to animals helps her, not realising she is a girl as she is dressed as a boy. She does not offer him sex and they do not have any sexual relationship until much later in the book, when she dresses up in a dress she finds in a chest, and asks him to undo the clasps when she's retiring to bed.
It was their mutual distaste for cruelty to animals that first drew them together.

[–] anniebel 17 years ago

Demelza had more integrity, love and warmth in her than ever Elizabeth was capable of. I think that in Demelza, Ross found a true soul mate.

[–] whateverfour20110 16 years ago

I guess the truth is that Poldark is a work of Romance. So, I would assume that most who are enamored of the novels would have a "Romantic" view of life. is there any man who would really choose a woman without grace, class or dignity. A few hours in bed would not overcome her inablility to function in society. Inproper English, inablity to know any of the social standards that she would be expected to adhere to in any real society. Can you man imagine bringing Demelza home to meet the family. I guess, if was the Adams Family.

And since most of the women on this blog are offended when a man attempts to discuss how a woman feels, I would assume that they would not attempt the opposite.

Well, it is OK since it is just Romance. After all Romantic Victorian novels are simply a true statement of the Victorian times. That is without the smoke, smells, manure and reality.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] anniebel 16 years ago

Demelza, as decribed in the novels, is a perfect mate for Ross. But obviously it could never happen in reality, given her humble beginnings. There's no chance she would become the lady as described in the novel. Neither would a gentleman like Poldark ever consider Demelza for a wife.

The overall story of a filthy, illiterate, half starved miner's child, who spent most of her childhood rolling around in the gutter, turning into a lady of society is pure fairytale, but then people do love a fairytale. In reality someone like Demelza could never assimilate into the upper echelons of society if she had a dozen lifetimes to practise. One has to be born into that society to be part of it. There's no other way. But as you say it's fiction, which is why people can accept it.

I love the books themselves because there's so much more than just Ross' relationship with his wife and because of this, for the most part, I can overcome my disbelief in his choice of wife and enjoy.

[–] randommovies2002 16 years ago

But obviously it could never happen in reality, given her humble beginnings. There's no chance she would become the lady as described in the novel. Neither would a gentleman like Poldark ever consider Demelza for a wife.

I wonder, though, given Ross' rejection of the beliefs of his class. By his words and by his deeds, he consistently (in the novels and series) demonstrated how he felt about the system. Two examples are Ross' testimony at Jim Carter's trial, and his testimony at his own trial when he was charged with inciting the mob who were looting the wreck of the Queen Charlotte.

[–] anniebel 16 years ago

Yes you do have a point. Ross despised his own class. He despaired of their inhumanity towards those who were less fortunate than them. But given the choice, Ross wouldn't have married out of his own class. He still would have married the patrician Elizabeth. But circumstances beyond his control prevented that from happening.

[–] randommovies2002 16 years ago

And imo, it was a good thing that circumstance beyond his control prevented it. :-)
I wonder how well Ross knew himself at the time he first fell in love with Elizabeth? Demelza was the better life partner for him, working alongside him, bearing the hardships, caring for the villagers, supporting Ross' beliefs and deeds.

Thanks for responding!

[–] anniebel 16 years ago

You're welcome :)

Yes I’ve always thought that Demelza was the best mate for Ross. Although Elizabeth was basically kind hearted, she didn’t have Demelza’s naturally warm and caring nature. She would never have involved herself with the poor to the same extent as Demelza.

As for Ross, Elizabeth never really loved him or any man. The only person she cared for was her son, which was a shame for Ross because he loved her all his life.

Though Ross didn't love Demelza when he married her, he did come to love her as time went on. I recall watching a tv programme about the making of Poldark and in it Angharad Rees stated that though Ross came to love Demelza dearly, he never cared for her quite as much as she cared him. I wonder if that was because Demelza felt that she owed him more? He took her out of poverty after all.

[–] randommovies2002 16 years ago

I'd love to see that program on the making of Poldark! I've watched some clips on YouTube from a prorgram called "The Cult of [Poldark]" and really enjoyed them. I didn't watch Poldark back in the 70's, so it's especially interesting to me to see and read about how it was made, how it was received by the original viewers, etc.

[–] GladtobeGrey 16 years ago

Having always enjoyed reading Winston Graham's work, not just the 'Poldark' series but his many other books too, I am certainly not offended when men discuss female emotions - after all, many of Graham's books centre on female characters such as 'Marnie' for instance on which the famous Hitchcock film was based. Thomas Hardy, and H.E. Bates (who I thought was a woman when I first started reading his books at school in the '60s) and many male authors have written from a woman's angle with great insight and sensitivity. No intelligent woman would criticize a man for expressing his views on this subject if those views are delivered in an intelligent and considered manner.

"Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

[–] Sallycat67 16 years ago

Well observed, Elizabeth is cold. Demelza and Ross make a wonderful couple, even if it did take Ross a while to work it out!

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] greenegg 15 years ago

The books make the triangle so much clearer. I hated the way the script writers trashed various characters in the first series. Elizabeth and Demelza were much more complicated in the books. Elizabeth never even gets to comment about Ross and Demelza in the books, until after they've married. She also doesn't make plans to run away with Ross. I can see how people would get the wrong ideas about them if they only watched the first series. I hate that idiotic final sequence at Trenwith in the first series. There was never a scene with all that mayhem in the books. Paul Daniel was not killed, and Trenwith never burned. That was just horrible script-writing! Far too many liberties were taken. I always preferred Demelza to Elizabeth, though Elizabeth finally starts to stand up for herself after she marries George.

I must take exception to some of the class comments in this thread. While it didn't happen often, people did marry outside their classes more than people realize. As to Demelza being in the upper echelons of society, she wasn't. Ross was a lower level member of the gentry. Even after his parliamentary exploits net him a baronetcy, he remains a relatively minor figure in the greater scheme of things. You're also overlooking Demelza's constant efforts to improve herself, which is quite true to life. From her earliest days at Nampara, she worked on self-improvement. Ross never cared about what society thought. He quickly realized what a frigid snob he nearly married, especially during the debacle with Verity and Blamey. Elizabeth was a sheep, easily led by her parents, and later, by Francis. Ross would never ultimately choose a sheep.

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