Why do the Redlegs let Josie live at the beginning of the film?
Why do the Redlegs do nothing more than knock Josie out after raping and murdering his wife, and burning his child alive? I don't get it.
shareWhy do the Redlegs do nothing more than knock Josie out after raping and murdering his wife, and burning his child alive? I don't get it.
shareIt's really that puzzling? He's struck down and slashed across the face with a sword by the Redlegs leader Terrill and left for dead. I assume Terrill thought he was dead/dying. The wife was murdered but we don't know if she was raped. The house was torched/set on fire but we don't know if the Redlegs knew the boy was in there or not when they did. The Redlegs didn't "let" Josey live, he was thought to be dead or dying. This scenario isn't exactly new in movies, lots of stories have people thought dead or dying in battle surviving. In a slash and dash raid by groups like the Redlegs they don't always have time during the mayhem to check vital signs of their victims or finish each of them off.
shareThe reason for the first poster's confusion stems from the fact that the scene described is so amateurishly directed and sloppily put together - as are pretty much all of the action sequences in this film, which inevitably seem to involve Josey facing off against absurd numbers of bad guys who, conveniently for him, are so incredibly stupid as to basically offer themselves up to his blazing guns like ducks in a shooting gallery. That's nice for Josey, but it makes for action sequences entirely lacking in any kind of sense of danger or excitement. Bo-ring...
The fact is, Clint Eastwood is grossly overrated as a director, and this film stands as testament to that.
I don't know what film you watched. The Outlaw Josey Wales is considered one of the greatest westerns ever. Most would disagree with you about the action sequences in the film being sloppy; they are set up the way they are to steep Josey's character in myth, and to say Eastwood is is overrated as a director is absurd.
shareI don't know what film you watched. The Outlaw Josey Wales is considered one of the greatest westerns ever. Most would disagree with you about the action sequences in the film being sloppy; they are set up the way they are to steep Josey's character in myth, and to say Eastwood is is overrated as a director is absurd.
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You have described 85% of the plots relating to bad ass versus bad guys. If your not a fan of a certain actor then that's fine, but I think you let that cloud your judgement.
shareUnfortunately, it was that puzzling. It colored my perception of the movie from the get-go as being somewhat hokey. I was hoping there was a better explanation from the book, or something I may have missed in the film.
It wouldn't have required a lot of effort to run him through, even from horseback, and a cut to the cheek doesn't exactly scream "life-threatening". I realize that it's a work of fiction, but it seems they could have scripted that scene better; be it a more serious wound, or the militia being chased away by a third party, etc.
I guess in a film that requires such leaps of logic as to believe a cabin of women and run-down old men could take down an entire trained militia, you have to be able to suspend disbelief. I did enjoy the movie a great deal.
I enjoyed parts of the film, too - definitely Chief Dan George, for example. What a terrific performance. But there was also some really bad acting - for example, the scene at the end of the film where the TX Rangers are in the bar and the habitues are addressing Wales as "Mr. Wilson" (or whatever they called him). That's gotta be one of the worst (best?) examples of people in a movie OBVIOUSLY lying. A 3-year-old could see through their deception, and the reason it doesn't work is because the actors are being badly directed, being told to ham it up, not being told to underplay it (as they should have been). It doesn't help, either, that that part of the script is badly written. (Why, for example, would the Rangers take the word of some barfly who claims he saw Wales killed in Mexico? "Oh, sure, drunkie. Your word's good enough for the Texas Rangers." As if!)
But the implausibility of most of the action sequences (e.g. how Wales takes on all the Comancheros, single-handedly) does, as ronfar623 points out, detract from one's enjoyment of the film unless one is unable to suspend a LOT of disbelief. Your argument, IamTenBears, that "the action sequences in the film...are set up the way they are to steep Josey's character in myth" might be valid if, for example, they were framed within the narrative of the film as, say, some character's story about Wales; but they're being presented as Wales' present reality and therefore should reflect at least some degree of 'objectivity.'
And, IamTenBears, you can say that my calling Eastwood overrated as a director is "absurd," but you really should back that up. I'm giving all kinds of reasons, based on this film (and don't even get me started about "Gran Torino"), why I think Clint's not as great as everyone says, why I just don't accept the hype. I'm not saying he's terrible - just that he's nowhere near as great as too many people say he is. That's all.
Concerning the "lying in the saloon" scene; In my mind, the fact that they were obviously lying about Wales' fate was germaine to the gist of it all--they were lying, the Rangers and (obviously) Fletcher KNEW they were lying, but they just didn't give a s**t any more. They were just as happy to let the whole sordid mess drop and go home. Ten Spot told the lie, swore to it on a piece of paper, and that allowed them to say, "Case closed, let's get the hell out of this Godforsaken place!". One of the Rangers even reinforces the idea when he responds to the bartender's offer to "stop in if you're ever down this way again" with (and I'm paraphrasing) "Nope, I don't think that we'll EVER be down this way again", followed by an almost sarcastic, "Nice to see you, Mr. Wilson", as if to say, "Yeah, we know who you are, we know you're alive, but guess what? We don't care, and we really don't see why anyone else should, either". As Fletcher told him straight up a few seconds later, "The war is over".
shareGood explanation of the scene ck1-5. It was a great scene- I don't see one thing wrong with it. The scenes of Wales gunning down his foes when outnumbered have been discussed here before and sure while they are far-fetched the script does allow for at least some reasoning why he was able to do what he did. First of all doh it's a Clint Eastwood western so we know going in he won't miss but the bad guys will. He's a mythical gunfighter whose name and reputation precedes him everywhere he goes. The face-down with the Redlegs when he rides out to take them on- Lone Watie tells the others hold up in the cabin what "edge" Wales is trying to use against the Redlegs- such as making sure they have the sun in their eyes instead of it being in his. He is backed up by Watie and the others in the cabin. He's not totally alone. He IS shot. Earlier Wales explains to Lone Watie after he killed the 4 (?) Union troops in the town (with the help of Watie) how he knew which of the four he faced he should shoot first and then breaks down how he proceeded with the remaining three. Most of Wales' gunfights are one on one or one against two - hardly terrible odds for a renowned gunfighter.
I'm not a knee-jerk Eastwood supporter or think he's the greatest director of his generation but I beg to differ that he didn't do a fine job in this movie behind and in front of the camera. This is a great movie.
I'll back up that Eastwood is great director by pointing out he has won four Oscars, five if you include his lifetime achievement award, and been nominated for many more. Moreover, he has over a hundred other industry awards to his credit for directing. You are stating your opinion about the film, not the facts. Like I said, most would disagree with your comments and this film has been honoured by the Library of Congress and preserved in the archives of the National Film Registry, an honour bestowed upon films that are deemed to be of high cultural and historical importance. There is a difference between not liking a film or actor/director and something that is of poor quality, you need to realize this.
share I would like to add in terms of belief, a lot of times the best fighters simply don't hesitate to kill when they are threatened, not even for a split second. That does makes all the difference in the world, their opponents are reactive instead of proactive. Also going up against a well-known gunslinger, you are bound to be more nervous and make mistakes more than going up against a regular joe. This could be a partial reason why Josey prevails, he doesn't hesitate.
Josey also is able to keep his cool while fighting. The reason Shaolin monks practiced meditation was so that when they encountered murderous bandits in the wild they would not panick and fight wildly when they had to, but rather keep a level head and think clearly about how they needed to fight to prevail.
What a screwed up reply.
Even Orson Welles has said that "Kane" could have been done better.
So, what? Does it prove he is a bad director? You actually did not say anything with your post.
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Have to say, I like him, but I actually agree that he's overrated, but more with regard to his ability as a director to hire screenwriters and/or alter scripts. His films always seem to me to have lots of things about the writing that just don't make sense, things people wouldn't really say or wouldn't really do. There's a ton of that in this film, which I actually like overall, but I do think to like it you have to overlook a lot and/or look at much of the material as sort of "mythical," which I think is too often an excuse for just plain poor writing and story conception.
One minor example from OJW: He walks into the "Hoosier's" store, the proprietor starts rambling about all the Red Legs in town and other soldiers, etc. Then he suddenly says, out of nowhere, "Josey Wales!" Wales looks at him and says, "What?" Proprietor says something like, "Yeah, they say he's comin' this way, etc."
So the problem is this: Under what conceivable circumstances would a guy like that just speak a name into the air with no context? "Josey Wales!", he says, but only because it's needed for a little startle value -- like, "Oh, he recognizes him! No, wait, no he doesn't." But nobody would actually say that.
Now, this is not unheard of, as a movie convention. But it's still artificial, and there's a LOT of that in Eastwood movies. A lot of characters saying things that people like them would never say, just because the movie needs them to say it. Occasionally you see plot devices that fit into the same category, but there's far less of that than there is with the dialogue, IMHO.
I also enjoyed the final sequence of lies in the bar, but was confused how the two rangers didn't realise that was Josey. His appearance is quite obvious and he'd developed a name for himself.
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The problem with your arguments, Gangsteroctopus, is that they are irrelevant to the conventions of this particular work of art. You might as well condemn a piece of cheese for not being an orange.
For example, the heroic victory against insuperable odds is a well-established literary and dramatic convention: read 'The Illiad' to witness Achilles scything through 100 and more Trojans in one fell swoop, or - more pertinently - watch 'Yojimbo' or 'The Hidden Fortress'. Standards of social realism are, very simply, the wrong ones to apply to this film. We are looking at super-natural heroism, not realistic gunfights.
As to the question of the bar people "obviously" lying - of course they are, that is the point. Fletcher of course knows they are, and the Texan rangers are subtly portrayed as being so sick of the whole business of chasing down renegades ("there are another ten thousand to follow") that they are happy to write this particular hunt off, on any feeble justification. The obviousness is the whole point. People, on the whole, are not very good at lying, either. That too rings true.
Really, to judge this admirable Western by the standards of hyper-social-realism is grossly inappropriate, and does the film no service whatsoever.
I was confused too. I just assumed they wanted Josie to suffer more by letting him live with his wife and kid dead.
shareYou didn't have to come across in a condescending way.
The opening scene is poorly written and does not play well. Redlegs should have made sure he was dead and not assumed. He is a poor soldier, If Redlegs is a screwup then he is not a worth adversary for Josey Wales. He did "let" Josey Wales live, Did you even watch the movie? He came to kill him and Josey Wales survived didn't he? Then how did it happen? Redlegs let him live. "Don't have time during the mayhem to check vital signs of their victims" is a joke. There were only 3 people at the scene to kill. It was his job as a soldier to take care of business. The scene only managed to raise questions and demote the prowess of Redlegs. When those in charge found out later Josey Wales was living Redlegs should have been removed from his position for not following orders.
Other than that, I have no problem with the rest of the movie.
You're incorrect.
This was the American Civil War. Do some reading on Kansas and Missouri during that war. The band called the RedLegs in this movie were a bunch of terrorists which raided and killed as many people as they could, civilian, soldier, men or women, it didn't matter. There were groups like that on both sides. It wasn't a matter of taking strategic places to win a war to these guys, they just wanted to kill each other. I mean, they *hated* each other.
At the start of the film, Wales wasn't a soldier, he was a farmer. The RedLegs didn't come to specifically kill Wales and his family, they were going through the region killing *everyone*, and burning any resources that the confederates could use, and being a bit beyond rude and obnoxious.
These terrorist groups were a hit and run operation. No, they wouldn't have checked for vital signs. If you were down, you weren't a threat, and if you were dead, all the better.
You seem to think that Wales and the Union were adversaries from the start. That isn't true. It's the opening scene that turns Wales into the killer you see by the end of the opening credits.
BJ
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Blu-ray is the reason I don't go to theaters anymore...
"but we don't know if she was raped"
Josey states that she was, when he talks to Ten Bears...
One would have to admit.....it extended the film significantly.
shareThank you for the simple, yet humorously conveyed answer.
shareI suppose I should have clarified that my first reply was to offer a semi-plausible reason for Josey prevailing in gunfights. Plus, they wouldn't have a movie if he died.
As to the first question, maybe they thought he was just a harmless dirt farmer? Apparently, they thought wrong.
The redlegs wanted to spread fear and terror.
IF one person gets left alive it demoralises the southern cause. Or so they though.
Luckily for us, it made Josey into a stone cold killer.
yeah, this. they really didnt have any reason to make sure he's dead.
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As stated, he didn't look very intimidating to the crew that rode in and trashed his property....I'm sure they didn't kill everyone they ran across. How were they to know that, although he was in his "Clark Kent" mode, he was really Superman?
shareHa good analogy ck1-5, at that point in the story Wales was just an unassuming farmer with a family to the Redlegs who were running roughshod through the area.
shareI never thought of him as Superman at the beginning of the movie, it shows him get a gun out and start practicing with it, I think it was the time he spent riding with Fletcher and his group that turned him into a badass killer.
shareWell, if he would've killed him it would've been a very short movie.
shareBecause if they had killed him the movie would have ended before the opening credits.
sharePlus, the title would have had to have been changed to "The Corpse Josey Wales".
shareAs noted here, they thought he was dead. This was a good period for Bill McKinney in the he played Terrill and about the same time he played the bully Johnny Cobb in The Shootist. It is evident that the way Terrill slashed Wales with the sword that Wales was never going to forget his face.
It is clear that Clint Eastwood was old school in the he tried to get parts in his productions for people that he had worked with during his career. He never forgot those who had helped him. I wish John Russell's part had been bigger as Bloody Bill Anderson since you could barely see him since the camera pointed at him in front of the sun. He had a bigger part in Pale Rider. I wonder if any scenes had been deleted that could later be seen like a Director's Cut. Really good movie that I don't mind seeing repeatedly.
This is a rare occasion where the movie was better than the book which I read. Also, I was attracted to the Return Of Josey Wales which was the sequel but it is hard to sell a sequel it had none, that I know of, of the people that were in the original. I like Michael Parks but it is not fair to compare him to Clint Eastwood although he play Josey Wales in the sequel. Maybe I will have to watch it again sometime to see if I missed something. Of many of my favorite scenes, I like the "Missouri Boat Ride". Good job everybody.
These cats were on a rape and pillage rampage. Why do they care whether he lives or dies? The Redlegs were a group of ruffians that used the war as an excuse to do what they pleased. They had no concern whether he lived or died because they knew they would be on to the next house to rape and pillage. It's not like they did police lines ups back then anyway.
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