MovieChat Forums > The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976) Discussion > Did Josie kill Tom Turner?

Did Josie kill Tom Turner?

posted 9 years ago by thomasrupolo
7 replies | jump to latest

Tom Turner, Granny's son, owned the ranch that Granny and Laura Lee settle in with their extended family, which for a time included Josey Wales. We are told soon after meeting Granny that her son Tom was killed but the circumstances were not clear.

After seeing the movie more times than I can remember, it occurred to me that Tom Turner may have been shot by Josey in the scene when Josey turns the Gatling gun on the union troops who were shooting the surrendered and unarmed confederate soldiers.

In a scene heavily weighted with irony, Granny says that her son was "killed in the Border War by Missouri ruffians." Then we see a quick shot of Josey with his customary pained expression on his face.

Maybe its just me, but I think it is ambiguous whether Josie had anything to do with Tom Turner's death or not, and this was probably intentional. It took more than a few viewings for me to notice any connection whatsoever.

Granny then goes on to say that her son "died a proud member of Senator Jim Lane's Redlegs...fighting for the just cause!" Many would argue that shooting unarmed prisoners is not generally regarded as a just cause.

Nevertheless Josey befriends the poor family, helps them set up a homestead and trains them how to defend themselves in case of an attack, which Josey knows is inevitable as long as he stays there. He is clearly torn between avoiding more trouble by leaving and helping them defend themselves when trouble arises.

The fact that they helped defend Josey from Redlegs and his raiders is a delicious twist of irony. Clint has a talent for blurring the lines between who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, and is a recurring element in this film.

[–] star_in_the_zenith_79 9 years ago

Interesting possibility, never thought of it! There is no way of knowing for sure, but it would have been very profound irony.

But I don't think that Josey's look had anything to do with the possibility of him personally killing Tom Turner. Simply because Josey had no way of knowing the names of the Union soldiers he shot. I think the look was just because he realized the connection of the people he was riding with to the Senator and troops who were directly responsible not only for the murders of his family, but also a group he had many run ins with during the war. That would no doubt creep out and bother anyone.

But as you pointed out, the exact circumstances of Tom Turner's death were not explained or even how long he had been dead, only that he was killed by Missouri ruffians. So there is no way to know for sure if Josey killed him. He might have already been dead before that incident at the beginning of the movie and was killed in another war run in with Missouri Confederate brigades.

But ultimately the theme of Outlaw Josey Wales I believe is people overcoming the stereotypes to band together against real enemies of peace. Josey probably believed all redlegs from Kansas were murdering snakes like Captain Terril, and Granny in turn believed all Missouri soldiers were bushwackers and killers. But in the end they pull together.

[–] thomasrupolo 9 years ago

I know this is pure conjecture on my part, but I think there is a better than even chance that the filmmakers meant to suggest, or at least imply that Josey had something to do with Tom Turner's death. After all, we don't really know how long Josey rode with the Missouri Ruffians.

Its true that Josey could not be certain whether he killed him or not, as you say he had no way of knowing the names of the Union soldiers. But odds are good - he did shoot a lot of them!

So when Granny explains that Tom's demise was caused by Missouri Ruffians the possibility that Josey killed him had to have occurred to him. At that moment he also realized all the other dramatic things that you mention. Its quite a profound moment in the story, it was downplayed brilliantly by Clint.

I agree with you that one major theme in this movie - and also why it is oddly a feel-good movie in many ways (despite Clint shooting well over 50 people!) is how people from very different - even conflicting - backgrounds can band together in harmony.

[–] star_in_the_zenith_79 9 years ago

Yeah true Clint shot a lot of people, but it just goes to show you that even body count doesn't always tell the whole story about a person. Josey never set out to be a badass gunfighter, nor did he have any aspirations to kill people. Josey just wanted to be left the hell alone. But first his family gets murdered in cold blood, and then his whole regiment gets treacherously shot down upon surrender by the same army, and then everyone he meets wants to shoot him down for bounty. Lets face it that would make anyone at least a little hard nosed and pissy.

[–] tsamiec 9 years ago

An intriguing possibility for sure. What about Sam Bottoms (Jamie)? Just as good a possibility it was him and not Josie when you get down to it.

[–] tennismenace 8 years ago

Good stuff. Thanks for sharing that.

[–] gbu (580) 8 years ago

The way granny spoke of her sons death sounded like it was years ago rather then something quite recent.

While its still possible it was Josey that killed him i thought it would of been too soon for her to find out of her sons death and travle to him in that time.

Was there any time scale in the film i cant remember of how long Josey signed up with Fletcher then found granny and the others in the town?

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

i don't think so