MovieChat Forums > Marathon Man (1976) Discussion > A puzzling part of the film?

A puzzling part of the film?

posted 11 years ago by elliot_condous
20 replies | jump to latest

So it is implied Elsa was working for Szell the whole time.

Then I guess that means she was instructed to infiltrate Babe's life. But why did she play so 'hard to get' at the library and back at her apartment? It seemed she was relying on causing Babe to fall for her at first site and then pursue her back to her apartment over a lost book, and then she continues to tell him to leave at least 5 times? Wouldn't it have been a bit more simple to act more eager. I don't understand why she had to even infiltrate Babe's life, and also... why were they mugged by Szell's assistants in the park!??

I guess I'm just really confused at exactly what part Elsa plays in this movie?

And also... What was the soccer ball all about?!!

And who was the asian man trying to kill Doc working for?

Too much of this film went straight over my head.

[–] jwalsh67 11 years ago

Yes, Elsa's role was a bit fuzzy, but all films of this genre require at least one sex-symbolizing female with ulterior motives! I did not read the novel, but from what I gathered from the film, Elsa was a diamond courier for Szell (who she "never even met" supposedly) who was hired/ordered to keep Babe under her spell while Szell planned and executed his diamond "transaction" in NYC. As you may recall, Doc was nearly killed by the "Asian man" (first the bomb, then the attack in the hotel), because he (Doc) was acting as a courier for Szell and, after Szell's brother was killed, Szell was "getting all the couriers", due to his paranoia. Elsa was probably given "immunity" if she seduced Babe and reported his every move and motive to Szell and his goons. The attack in Central Park was probably just a ruse to ward off any suspicion of Elsa's involvement. Doc was less than respectful towards Szell's "authority", and Szell probably feared that he would tell Babe confidential details. Elsa would be able to make sure that Babe was "occupied" and not making any malicious plans. After Doc was stabbed, however, and made his trek to Babe's apartment, Szell feared that even Elsa would be unable to stop Babe from becoming dangerous. He therefore resorted to dental torture to find out if "it was safe".

As for the "hard-to-get" act, Elsa knew as soon as she sat down at the library table that she had Babe hooked and that he would come after her. If she acted too interested in him, he might suspect her motives.

I would be curious to learn more myself about Elsa's role in the plot, and I am sure there are better "experts" on the subject. I look forward to reading the thread as it develops!

He who conquers himself is mightier than he who conquers a city.

[–] Charlot47 11 years ago

Yes, Elsa’s role and motives seem muddled but I agree that she would have had no difficulty in hooking the nerdish Babe whenever she wanted. That however raises fresh questions in my mind.

Why, unlike his worldly wise brother, did he have no woman in his life? Why did the Puerto Rican lads opposite think he was gay? Was the sex between Babe and Elsa mutually satisfying?

Any thoughts out there?

[–] Scott-101 11 years ago

That part sort of makes sense to me, since she approached him in the library by asking him some obvious question, then leaving her book with a name and address in it. Even if he wasn't head over heels for her, he still would have taken her book and brought it back to her like any decent person would do and you'd assume she took her.

I don't get a lot of the film, personally.
Who were the people trying to kill Doc in his hotel and who was the man watching from across the window?

Devane's character said something like "Doc gave safe haven to a lot of Jews in exchange for gold", so I thought for a second that he was like a hero, like Oskar Schindler. I supppose he was a bad guy?

Who names their kid "Doc" and "Babe"?

What the heck was going on at the beginning. Who was that maniacal Jewish guy who assumes that anyone speaking German is a Nazi and why did he feel the need to all of a sudden turn a New York city street into Death Race 2000? And wasn't it a bit too convenient of a plot contrivance that they would both crash into an oil truck?

Why would anyone care about a Columbia University grad school student at all who doesn't even know what his brother does for a living?

Janeway was a mole?

Who's Scyllia? It is implied that "Scyllia" is still alive in the novel sequel?

What is up with Dustin Hoffman's arc? To redeem his father's suicide, he had to kill Janeway (who I'm not sure needed to be killed) and a Nazi. The people who persecuted his dad were McCarthysits.

Also, why did Babe originally omit McCarthy from his thesis if he was obsessed with his dad's death.

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[–] Charlot47 11 years ago

Based on just one viewing of the film, here are some quick thoughts on your very interesting list of questions:

Q In the library, he still would have taken her book and brought it back to her like any decent person would do?
A Are you sure Babe was that alert to other people? Isn’t it equally likely that he would have left the book out of indifference or timidity?

Q Who were the people trying to kill Doc in his hotel and who was the man watching from across the window?
A Wasn’t the old man on the balcony opposite just an innocent bystander?

Q Devane's character said something like "Doc gave safe haven to a lot of Jews in exchange for gold", so I thought for a second that he was like a hero, like Oskar Schindler. I supppose he was a bad guy?
A Wasn’t Janeway talking about Szell, an extremely bad guy?

Q Who names their kid "Doc" and "Babe"?
A I think their given names were Henry and Thomas.

Q Who was that maniacal Jewish guy who assumes that anyone speaking German is a Nazi and why did he feel the need to all of a sudden turn a New York city street into Death Race 2000?
A At a guess, did he have personal reasons dating from World War 2 for disliking Germans? Some Jews have been ready to meet violence with violence.

Q And wasn't it a bit too convenient of a plot contrivance that they would both crash into an oil truck?
A Isn’t there only a limited number of possible endings to a car chase?

Q Why would anyone care about a Columbia University grad school student at all who doesn't even know what his brother does for a living?
A Why would Doc take his apparently dumb kid brother into his confidence? Particularly since he himself and Janeway both appear to be double agents.

Q Janeway was a mole?
A He seems to be working for at least two sides?

Q What is up with Dustin Hoffman's arc? To redeem his father's suicide, he had to kill Janeway (who I'm not sure needed to be killed) and a Nazi. The people who persecuted his dad were McCarthyists.
A That puzzled me. The death of Szell in the waterworks, at his own hands not Babe’s, avenges the Nazi monster’s many victims. Old Levy, however, had felt he could not fight on and instead took his own life. Yet his enemy was not Nazism but McCarthyism and, as you may perhaps be hinting, was the mindset of McCarthyism in fact not that far from Nazism? In both, a conception of the state which not all citizens shared was used to harass an arbitrarily defined minority.

Q Also, why did Babe originally omit McCarthy from his thesis if he was obsessed with his dad's death?
A One of the best questions! Was he too hung up over the failure of his father’s life? Is it all very Oedipal, that you can’t grow into a man in your own right until you have symbolically “killed” your father and laid him to rest?

[–] ccr1633 10 years ago

Q What is up with Dustin Hoffman's arc? To redeem his father's suicide, he had to kill Janeway (who I'm not sure needed to be killed) and a Nazi. The people who persecuted his dad were McCarthyists.
A That puzzled me. The death of Szell in the waterworks, at his own hands not Babe’s, avenges the Nazi monster’s many victims. Old Levy, however, had felt he could not fight on and instead took his own life. Yet his enemy was not Nazism but McCarthyism and, as you may perhaps be hinting, was the mindset of McCarthyism in fact not that far from Nazism?

I think it's safe to say that Nazis were the enemy of all Jews.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] dustypistol 9 years ago

I just saw this movie for the first time, here are my thoughts on this thread...

Dustin Hoffman wasn't going to kill Janeway - they made a deal at the country house, but as Hoffman was leaving to cash in on his part of the deal (Janeway told him where Szell was), Janeway shot Ilsa (who Dustin Hoffman loved, despite her probably being Szell's mistress or at least working for Szell) and that's why Hoffman turned back and killed Janeway.

As for the car chase in the beginning, I'm not sure what clued the "maniacal Jewish guy" in to the fact that the German guy driving in front of him was a Nazi (maybe he remembered the guy from a concentration camp? I missed some of this part), but the guy WAS a Nazi, in fact he was Szell's brother and his death starts the whole plot of Szell having no one left he could trust after his brother died.

The Asian guy was a hitman hired by Szell to kill Doc. The guy across in the next building in the wheelchair was both A) an innocent bystander, and B) a reference to the Hitchcock classic film Rear Window, where a wheelchair-bound James Stewart witnesses a murder in the building window across from his.

As for the woman being hard-to-get, it's both a long con and a way to make the audience think she wasn't a plant... but it seemed like she actually fell in love with Hoffman. IMO she was lying when she said she'd never met Szell, though.

Great movie.

[–] audiograve 9 years ago

Who was that maniacal Jewish guy who assumes that anyone speaking German is a Nazi and why did he feel the need to all of a sudden turn a New York city street into Death Race 2000?

The german guy first said "juden" to the jewish guy, and the other bloke then replied with calling the german chap a Nazi.

[–] baran_erik 8 years ago

The old man was just someone who happened to see what was going on across the street.

Doc was too young to have been involved in WW2.

The death of Szell brother is what triggers the entire movie. It was just a case of road rage, nothing sinister, but Szell didn't know that, which is why he left his jungle compound to get the rest of the diamonds.

Doc had a cover identity as an international financier or something like that, and that's what Babe thought he did.

Janeway is a double agent.

Scyllia is Doc's code name.

His attempt to redeem his father was to be with his doctoral thesis, Janeway and Szell were revenge for Doc.

I don't remember that he was omitting McCarthy from his thesis. He was the one who discovered his father.

Gotta read the book again.

[–] jh66 11 years ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074860/board/nest/224478765?d=latest&; t=20140112144404#latest

Try looking first?

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Grizzleberries 10 years ago

dude, some people have lives and don't have all day to surf imdb boards to find the one post that reflects their question. why do u have to be rude? who cares??? OMG HE POSTED SOMETHING SIMILAR TO ANOTHER POST!!!! WTF!!!!! Like, who cares dude???

[–] ananth-agastya 10 years ago

even if they did surf imdb boards, i think a lot of us just want to discuss some topics (perceived as 'tired old topics' by some others, for sure) with newbies or the same old guys, for a fresher look/perspective. what's wrong with that?

i tried to read posts on '2001' or 'eyes wide shut' and ran in to such negative views on newbies who are just trying to discuss the film. these old farts need to just stop complaining and leave them be.

what's so wrong with perspectives changing over time?

[–] Yorke71 10 years ago

But why did she play so 'hard to get' at the library and back at her apartment? It seemed she was relying on causing Babe to fall for her at first site and then pursue her back to her apartment over a lost book, and then she continues to tell him to leave at least 5 times? Wouldn't it have been a bit more simple to act more eager.

That's a good point. You often see this in movie thrillers, another good example is in The Verdict, where the love interest of the lead initially seems reluctant, then later turns out to be a plant. There's no logical reason for this, it's done solely to trick the audience into thinking that she must really love the guy since she was "won over" by his charms. It therefore comes as a bigger surprise when she later turns out to be a spy. As you said, in real life she would almost certainly be the one pursuing him.

Too much of this film went straight over my head.

As Roger Ebert said in his review there are a lot of loose threads in the movie which are probably better explained in the book. Unless you turn a novel into a 6-hour movie, you have to leave some things out. That's one thing in a romance, but it's extra tricky in a plot-dependent story like this.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] cracked_machine 10 years ago

It's called the long con. To avoid suspicion you make it look as though THEY made the first move or make them think that something was THEIR idea. In reality you have been carefully placing yourself or an idea in their view, ready for them to "discover" it.
It takes some considerable skill and no small amount of luck too.

[–] jajceboy 10 years ago

The point of Elsa was to be the mysterious femme-fatale. But I'm not she came of as that. To me she was just came off as cold.

I have seen the film numeral times and I still don't know exactly what she did or why. All we have is what she's telling us. And even that isn't probably entirely true cause the film clearly shows that she is an unreliable narrator. For all we know she might as well could have been Szell's mistress.
All I got from it was that she was somehow instructed to lure in Babe, to see how or if he knew. So it wasn't just a random meeting in the library..

[–] robertoahhh 10 years ago

As far as I know. She worked for him before. She didn't when she met Hoffman and actually did like him.

[–] baran_erik 8 years ago

Because she was out of Babe's league. It would have been too suspicious if she went for him right away.

The mugging was a signal to Doc; "we know who he is."

Elsa was kind of a backup plan. Also to keep tabs on him.

Babe and Doc were childhood nicknames. Smh

The soccer ball was just to freak him out. Just a guess.

Doc was a courier, along with the soccer ball woman, the antique dealer and Janey. They were killing off Szell's delivery network.

I need to read the book again.