MovieChat Forums > Cross of Iron (1977) Discussion > One thing that occured to me watching th...

One thing that occured to me watching this film

posted 13 years ago by Demarates
36 replies | jump to latest

Regardless of the ideology motivating the German Reich, you have to feel sorry for you average Wehrmacht grunt who went through hell on the Eastern front. Once the tide started turning they were hounded by the reds all the way to Berlin. Defeat after defeat, losing comrades left and right ; a situation not that much different (if not worse) from the US troops in Vietnam.

So how come so many Vietnam vets came home like zombies, completely shell shocked, whereas there are no tales of this nature about German war vets ?

Sure, Vietnam vets had the "bonus" of being called baby killers and being spat on by hippies once they got home, which was no doubt extremely humiliating for them, but the German soldiers got home to a nation in ruins. Their proud Reich on its knees, cut in half by occupying forces and at their mercy, begging for handouts.

Surely they felt just as miserable, if not more, than the GI's at the end of the Vietnam war ?

"I am not a complete idiot, some parts are missing."

[–] bjorn5 13 years ago

I pretty sure that there was quite a bit of suicides, alcoholism, suppressed feelings, etc, in the wake of WW2, but one thing that kept many men on the straight and narrow was the rebuilding of Germany and their lives. I don't expect that many of the frontline veterans came through unscathed, but with a shortage of men, they had jobs to do, familis to raise, and so on.

[–] Demarates 13 years ago

A common goal, a purpose in life, whereas your Vietnam Vets had too much time on their hands and turned to drinking and getting depressed.

Makes sense.

"I am not a complete idiot, some parts are missing."

[–] nickm2 13 years ago

Luftwaffe stuff is one of my hobbies: I recall several LW Fighter pilots who died shortly after the war from Lung Cancer or heart attacks (and they were QUITE young too); at least one other was killed racing in the Nuremberg Road Rally in 1946;

That being said I think the stereotype of the 'dysfunctional/psycho Vietnam vet' is grossly exaggerated; for ex: in the 1980s an American Columnist (IE: An 'Agony Aunt') once said there were 'three million homeless people in the US & 'the vast majority of them were Vietnam Veterans'--which is utterly impossible because there were only about 3 million people who served in Vietnam ins SOME capacity---that would imply nearly ALL Vets who served in Vietnam were homeless; ALL the vets who I ever worked with were more 'straight arrow' than the next. That being said, many preferred not to talk about it or 'advertize it' (after all, 'all Viet vets are psychos', right?) & got on with their lives...ON the other hand I have run across a large number of 'fakers'--guys who never when anywhere near Vietnam or even near a uniform claiming their problems were caused by 'The Nam'...

[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

Well, take into account that the average soldier partecipated to a war of extermination (unlike the americans in Vietnam) and from the letters they sent home they liked killing the untermenchen...

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

[–] I_hatenazis 13 years ago

That is a very presumptuous and silly comment to make.

Now regarding the OP's question, part of it must be that the average German vet was at least somewhat reluctant to discuss their war related experiences and problems precisely because of the stigma associated with serving under Hitler as evidenced by this poster's reply. I actually found it one of the interesting subtexts of this movie that Sgt. Steiner was indeed experiencing post traumatic stress disorder, especially at the hospital and later when he confronted Lt. Triebeg with his flashbacks. Poor Triebeg seemed to be paying the price for every bad thing that Steiner saw, even the part he was not responsible for (but he did deserve it).

[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

The presemptuous and silly comment is yours, go on the net and look for "Wehrmacht crimes", I'll give you a little help:

"The pitiful hordes on the other side are nothing but felons who are driven by alcohol and the [commissars'] threat of pistols at their heads...They are nothing but a bunch of *beep* encountered these Bolshevik hordes and having seen how they live has made a lasting impression on me. Everyone, even the last doubter, knows today that the battle against these sub-humans, who've been whipped into a frenzy by the Jews, was not only necessary but came in the nick of time. Our Führer has saved Europe from certain chaos."

Fonts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht#Invasion_of_the_Soviet_Union

The german soldiers had been exposed to years of anti-slavic, anti-communistic and anti-jewish propaganda and these were the results.

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

[–] I_hatenazis 13 years ago

I'm not denying that there were wholesale slaughters performed by the Wermacht. I object to the categorization that the majority of Wermacht soldiers behaved in this manner and even a smaller number of those who did participate in massacres actually enjoyed it. In fact, the dynamics of these atrocities were rather cleverly portrayed in the opening montage. As the war situation deteriorated for the Germans they resorted to more barbarisms, especially in response to partisan uprisings. These crimes were not perpetrated by comic book villains but rather by increasingly desperate and frustrated and misled men.

To suggest that many German WW2 vets did not suffer from PTSD is as silly as saying that U.S. WW2 vets did not suffer from PTSD as well. Both groups of veterans tended to avoid talking about their experiences all be it for different reasons (strong silent archetype for U.S. vet's).

[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

Actually the Germans on the East Front were more barbarian at the beginning of the campaign in 1941 when the Wehrmacht and the Einsatzkommando started the "bullet holocaust" against the Jews, Partisans, People's commissars, simple POW "untermenschen"...actually most of the losses of the Red Army weren't on the battlefront but in the concentration camps.

However as the war continued the Germans gained more respect of the Soviets, not the other way around.

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

[–] I_hatenazis 13 years ago

Russian prisoners were sent to regular prison camps as well as forced labor camps; they were not in the same category as Jews who were killed immediately in concentration camps. A distressingly high number of prisoners (on both sides) died because of neglect and mistreatment. However, the front line soldier would not be aware or impacted by the treatment of prisoners in the rear area.

Weren't the mass hangings depicted in the film typically reprisal's for partisan attacks and to put fear into occupied Russians? This is clearly a despicable act of desperation and would impact the psyche of the front line German soldier. I am pretty sure that these mass executions did not take place at the very beginning of the war.

I will definitely agree that soldiers who cross that line of barbarism become brutes and likely would not suffer from PTSD because of their lost ability to empathize. My only argument with you is that I don't think the majority of the German army went to that place.

We should not flatter ourselves to think that the German soldier was uniquely evil; we can descend into those same places if we are not careful.

[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

I humbly point out that the Soviet POWs were sent to places like Dachau and Ausshwitz:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_prisoners_of_war_(Nazi_Germany)

Some quotes:

These cursed Untermenschen have been observed eating grass, flowers and raw potatoes. Once they can't find anything edible in the camp they turn to cannibalism." – Colonel Falkenberg, commandant of Stalag 318 (VIII-F)

he decision, therefore, lies here in the East; here must the Russian enemy, this people numbering two hundred million Russians, be destroyed on the battle field and person by person, and made to bleed to death." - Heinrich Himmler

Vonnegut when was POW in Germany also observed that the western POWs were in the middle of a "russian extermination camp".

Regarding the execution of civilians, POWS and Jews, 1941 was the worst year, when the Einsatzgruppen were given free hand:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

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[–] nickm2 13 years ago

When did the USAAF supposedly take these pics?

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[–] nickm2 13 years ago

1939? I didn't even know the US had recon planes that could do the job...

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[–] nickm2 13 years ago

I didn't even know we had a recon craft that could do the job then....

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[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

Neonazi, eh?

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

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[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

The most hilarious thing is to see Neonazis like you coming here and defending the SS and their crimes against Humanity talking about "objective history"...does IMDB allow this?

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

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[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

Still trolling around? For the record, I'm italian and in high school I study "De bello gallico". In Latin.
For your information, Caesar didn't commit any crime against humanity, didn't exterminate people just for fun like your idol Hitler, he intervened in a war between two gallic tribes, the Edui and the Sequani, and he sided with the Edui, Rome's allies, nothing like exterminating ubermenshen like Jews and Slavs.

And extermination is not war at all.

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

Ehi, Neonazi, I'm not a fool and my grandparents lived with the terror of the SS during WWII, go to try to make your revisionistic statements somewhere else, of course you have read the Mein Kampf where your idol said jews where to be hanged in Marienplatz, and of course you know Generalplan Ost:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

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[–] bjorn5 13 years ago

F*U*C*K off, nazi.

[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

Yes he's a *beep* nazi and what he says it's bulll...

From 1935, under the Nuremberg Laws of Citizenship and Race, Klemperer was stripped of his academic title, job, citizenship and freedom and eventually forced to work in a factory and as a day laborer. (In some passages, Klemperer writes of being made to work shoveling snow with a bad heart.) Since his wife, Eva, was "Aryan," Klemperer dodged deportation for most of the war, but in 1940 he was rehoused under miserable conditions in a ghetto (Judenhaus), where he was routinely questioned, mistreated and humiliated by the Gestapo. In the diary, the much-feared Gestapo is seen carrying out daily, humiliating and brutal house searches, delivering beatings, hurling insults, and robbing inhabitants of coveted foodstuffs and other household items.

Nice life, isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

Still *beep* around? Are you aware that Stalin is still a national hero in Russia because he defeated the Nazi? Are you also aware that he killed 8 milions of soviet citiziens but he trasnformed SU in a superpower?

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

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[–] wulfthar 13 years ago

Ehi, little Nazi, are you still trolling around? Nazism is huge in Russia? Have you ever been to Russia? I did, and I can assure that a doctrine of extermination of Slavs isn't that popular right there.

However interesting your *beep* about Hitler not killing anyone until '39. Have you ever heard about the night of the long knives?Or the night of the broken glasses?

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

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[–] vesa_karppinen-1 13 years ago

You're simply wrong - in January 1939 in his speech Hitler "prophesized" that if Germany is "thrusted into another war" the result will not be a "victory of Jewry" but the extermination (vernichtung) of Jewish race in Europe. And in Mein Kampf Hitler fleetingly toys with an idea of gassing Jews...
Sorry, the Nazis did try to exterminate the Jews of Europe. That is a historical fact. That is true that Nazis did intend to exterminate Slavs like Jews, they were "only" to be enslaved.

In Finland we have this thing called "reilu meininki"

[–] volkstraum 12 years ago

Comparing the ruin of Germany to the aftermath of the Vietnam War is like comparing a forest fire consuming an entire country to someone getting a grain of sand stuck in his eye, and having to visit a rest station to remove it.

*´¨)
¸.•´. •*´¨).•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•´no farting allowed

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