'How come I wasn't murdered?' - Helter Skelter (1976) Discussion

[–] bredlau3 17 years ago

there's a lot of confusion as to what really happened. Did Pat really go to the door and turn the handle and chicken out. Was William aware of what was going on. You can't get a straight answer out of either one of them. William's story changed over the years, and usually Pat says "I guess I did this"

but overall it looks like yes he is alive because she snapped out of it and didn't open the door. lucky for him.

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[–] wallacesawyer 17 years ago

William's story changed over the years, and usually Pat says "I guess I did this"

Yes, he changed his story didn't he. Apparenlty now he saw Pat chasing Abigail.

If she really did smap out of it, and William lived because of it, you'd expect Patricia to bring this up at every parole hearing. If it really happened this way.

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[–] bredlau3 17 years ago

I don't know if Pat REALLY wants to get out when it comes down to it. It is pretty useless to say, "this one night, I didn't kill this guy, but killed this girl, and the next night I killed another girl"

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[–] wallacesawyer 17 years ago

I don't know if Pat REALLY wants to get out when it comes down to it.

That would be news to me. Remorse, or the Shawshank Redemption thing? You know, outside is scary, been in jail to long, this is home and where I can really make a difference? The others seem to want out. Susan anyway.

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[–] bredlau3 17 years ago

well I think she wants to be out, just for the fact of not being in prison, but she has made it seem in interviews that she knows she belongs there for murdering someone. That she deserves it.

I don't know, I can't really say cause I am on the free outside, but I would wonder if after spending 38 years in prison, would I really want out. Kinda like when Charlie asked to stay in...it would be almost all I would know.

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[–] wallacesawyer 17 years ago

Maybe she'll write a book about this little "How come I wasn't murdered?" not bothering to kill William Garretson incident. Explain the whole story. If true.

I don't know, I can't really say cause I am on the free outside, but I would wonder if after spending 38 years in prison, would I really want out. Kinda like when Charlie asked to stay in...it would be almost all I would know.

Just like THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION. Hope in the future she doesn't try to kill someone just for an excuse to stay in.

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[–] DharmaKarma 17 years ago

I don't have a lot of faith in what William says. This is the guy that believed that moron Rosie Tate Polanski, who says she is Sharon's daughter.

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[–] wallacesawyer 17 years ago

I don't have a lot of faith in what William says. This is the guy that believed that moron Rosie Tate Polanski, who says she is Sharon's daughter.

Wow, that's nuts.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] dmoreno27 15 years ago

About the hitchiker remark-the driver told William that he shouldn't be hitchiking AFTER DARK in these parts-meaning cuz of the long narrow roads, you just don't know what kind of crazies (no pun intended) are driving around here...

"WAR is OVER-if you want it!!!"...*John Lennon*

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[–] straw-dale 16 years ago

5:55:55 cosmic, man

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[–] dpoern2006 16 years ago

Excellent point, kenenation-1, I never considered that.

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[–] davegahan1976 15 years ago

Garretson told the police who arrived the next morning that he heard nothing because he was playing his music loudly. He later (I believe in "Manson Behind the Scenes") said that he did hear screams and see Folger's body on the lawn.

Can you imagine being in the guesthouse so close to what was unfolding inside the house?

I have trouble believing Krenwinkle showed mercy. It is more plausible that she didn't know someone was there, or perhaps saw a male inside and decided that she needed Tex's help, but forgot in the confusion to go back and kill Garretson.

Either way, Garretson is lucky to be alive.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] dpoern2006 15 years ago

I understand where you are coming from, but if it were true that he saw Gibby being chased out on the lawn, what could he have really done? The phone lines were cut and I'm sure he didn't know if the whole place was surrounded by the killers. What else could he do? Run out there and become the sixth victim?

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] dpoern2006 15 years ago

Excellent points! Which is why I really DON'T believe he heard anything that night. Honestly, I think he was stoned out of his head and didn't know what was going on at all the night before. That's explains his shock and surprise when the police barged into the guest house the following morning and he asked, "why wasn't I murdered?" I agree with the other post, I think he may just be looking for publicity by saying he saw/heard what happened. Thanks for your input, MisterEggMan!

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[–] Liza-19 15 years ago

If Pat had gone in, I don't think she would have been able to kill him alone. He was 19 or 20 and in good shape. I think she realized she didn't know who or how many people were in that cottage (remember, had they been an hour earlier, Steve Parent would have been in there too). She probably realized she couldn't take anyone alone, so she turned back.

Garretson originally said he didn't hear the screams cuz he was listening to loud music. Later he admitted that he did hear, but assumed the party had just gotten out of hand. I think even more recently he's admitted to thinking something was really wrong, but staying inside. Really, there was nothing he could have done anyways.

I don't care about money. I just want to be wonderful. - Marilyn Monroe

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] TheGuyWithTheFeet 15 years ago

Yeah, and he couldn't have called the cops. Watson cut the phone lines.

So, the one way to get help is to call on the telephone? It was dark and he could easily have sneaked off of the property and gone to a neighboring house. He could also have told them police that he saw someone chasing Gibby across the lawn and stab her.

At the time, no one knew that there would be books and movies about this case. No one knew that Manson would be a household name placed alongside Hitler. It was just a high-profile murder that could possible be a serial killer. Garretson had no reason to keep information under his hat at the time.

Dude is lying. He was either playing his music too loud or drugged out of his mind.

because the landlord was gay, just like Garretson

Well, Altobelli is gay (please, he's European...of course he's gay). But since Garretson has been married, from what I understand, multiple times, I don't think Garretson is gay. Maybe Altobelli hired him because he was young and hot. Sometimes older gay men spend time with younger good-looking men because maybe, juuuussstt maybe they'll get drunk enough to admit that they'd like to put their ************ in their ************ and give it a good ************ until *************. Or maybe Garretson thought that he could live in a sweet house and make a good living if he just put his ***** in Altobelli's *****, gave it a good ****** until ******* and, voila, rent paid.

I also heard that Steven Parent was gay as well.

There's no proof of that. While I find the whole clock radio thing kind of weird, I'm looking at it from a 2010 gay guy's perspective. Not a 1969 gay guy's perspective.

Therefore, I think it's really tacky for the owner of the blog to post that kind of thing without any real proof. Besides, it's private between Garretson and Parent.

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[–] stevenhunt03 15 years ago

In the book helter skelter Bugliosi wrote that detectives did tests to see if Garretson was lying about not hearing anything. So at an approximate time to when the murders took place, they had several policeman up at the house screaming and i think they even shot a gun whilst another cop was in the cottage with the music on the level that they had found it at. and because of the wind outside the cop couldn't hear anything. So I don't think that he actually knew until the morning after

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[–] Thrilby 15 years ago

And good for him. He'd be so dead if he checked on anything he'd heard.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] Thrilby 15 years ago

Maybe his having lived through such a nightmare ruined him. I don't know anything about this person. Am not championing him or his character personally.

And it's easy to freeze the frame on the dead people and wax eloquent about their futures. We'll never know.

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[–] TequilaMockingbird5150 13 years ago

I had never heard that they were gay, but it makes more sense than driving all that way just to sell a clock-radio.

The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. Samuel Beckett

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[–] indy_go_blue44 14 years ago

Garretson was also taking care of Altobelli's dog, a weimeramer or some other big breed, IIRC. Possibly Pat heard the dog growl or saw it through the door/window and thought WTF! I'm outta here.

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[–] Cultfilmfeverforever 14 years ago

I certainly don't know, but my thought was Pat was too overcome to go through with it and may have turned the knob a little. She may have gotten scared and ran back to the others. The women have pretty much agreed they felt safer when their defacto leader Tex was around with his big bad self in charge.

If William was stoned (and I believe he was really stoned), he may have noticed things like a knob turning or what may have sounded like a scream as someone splashes into a pool outside.

For some reason I believe the sounds would have had a disconnected effect. He was comfortably numb and it was all flowing over and through him (if it was a good high). He would not have been worried about too much, just enjoying his high, and consciously aware what he was experiencing didn't make sense because of his altered state.

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[–] VonFisch 14 years ago

I've read elsewhere that the canyon plays tricks on people's ears. Someone might not hear what's going on next door but can hear clearly from a noise couple of miles away (or something like that).

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[–] chailey 13 years ago

In his initial statement, he said that he was really "nervous" that night and noticed at some point that the door handle had been turned. He also said that he tried to use the phone to check the time, but the phone was dead. Personally, I think that he was stoned, but was aware enough that something bad was going on and that he might be in danger. I think that he heard/saw something, got very frightened and tried to call the police or perhaps for help. Then he realized the phone lines weren't working and really got afraid... He may have been too scared to leave the guesthouse in the middle of the night. He was asleep when the police found him--if he'd been up all night, it would make sense that he nodded off.

In most cases, the initial story is the closest to the truth, and gets embellished through the years. However, his comments saying that he was afraid and didn't know why, plus the whole using the phone to call for the time never made sense to me.

I think he lied a bit, perhaps because he didn't want people pointing fingers at him and asking why he didn't go for help.

I have a hard time thinking Krenwinkle would falter when approaching the guesthouse--she had just stabbed AF to death seconds before. She may have been in a hurry and there may have been an unspoken belief that SP was the caretaker and that he'd been taken care of already.

My big question regarding that night is whether Manson came to the house after the murders. He claimed that he did, and, preposterous as it sounds, there is some slight evidence that points that way. Garretson may have been doubly lucky that night.

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[–] ihatestairwaytoheaven 13 years ago

Krenwinkel has also stated in interviews that she searched the guest house and found nobody inside, I think Garretson probabkly either hid in the guest house or somewhere on the grounds until the murders were over.

The story that Kasabian, Krenwinkel, Watson and Atkins all gave considering the murders themselves is completely different in a lot of respects (Atkins claimed Watson killed Tate, and vice versa. Krenwinkel claims Kasabian did indeed enter the Tate house etc) but they all agree on two points.

A)That Sebring and Tate never left the living room, were bound and murdered in the living room of the house.
B) That no one ever put a hood (the towel) on Jay Sebring's head.

Now consider that both Tate and Sebring's blood was found on the front porch of the house and that towel or "hood" was not just thrown over the head of Sebring, but covering his head and the edges nicely placed under rope around his neck. The glasses that were found there too were left after the killers left. Atkins seems confused about that item being there in Helter Skelter when she confesses to Virginia Graham in prison and seems to write it off as being there already. In addition, Roman Polanski's steamer trunks were askew, something none of the killers seem to ever remember. The rope that joined Sebring and Tate seems entirely glossed over in a lot of the testimony, it is most likely Manson returned and tried to hang Sebring/Tate from the porch, this was the reason the rope was brought in the first place.

The only realistic explaination is that Manson, or someone else returned to the house at some point between when Winnifred Chapman arrived in the morning and when Watson and company left the night before. Manson has claimed it happened, Sanders claimed it happened in his book, and Bugliosi too believed Manson returned to the house but could never scientifically prove it and thus found it pointless. I figure he brought either Brenda, as she was with Manson when the killers arrived home afterwards or Clem, a ranch hand remembers Clem, Manson and Watson arriving back at the ranch around dawn one of those nights of murder, Stephanie Schram also testified Manson arrived back at their Devils Canyon campsite around dawn the morning after the Tate murders so I figure this is probably the night. Sanders claimed the glasses had a strong prescription, which made them good magnifying glasses for starting grass fires. That sounds like a Clem thing to me. A Cielo Drive resident also claims they heard voices from the house, arguing around 4 AM the night of the murders.

In other news, Im not wearing pants. Film at 11.

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[–] eadaoin7 13 years ago

Actually, under heavy marijuana use, his statement of feeling afraid and not knowing why does make sense. Even the best stuff can invoke an unreasonable paranoia sometimes. Just as with any substance, it depends on the users' state of mind at the time of ingestion.

As for Garretson's later statements on the THS special...I'm not sure what to make of it, either. The events of that night can't be easy to handle, and perhaps there have been some transferences of memories with imaginings and images of the horror that happened. Quite honestly, who would be 100% normal after having something like that happen in your own backyard? I'd be scarred, to be sure.

Now, the speculation about the 'orientation' of Garretson and Parent...I must have missed the reference or it got deleted. I'm hoping that those who brought it up did not do so for any justification...? No matter anyone's leanings, no one deserves to be murdered--especially like that. Parent was a true innocent, and I hope that there won't be any smearing of his name after the fact.

After reading many speculations, I have to agree that the most likely scenario is that Pat most likely just forgot about the guesthouse in the melee that the whole night became.

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[–] chailey 12 years ago

The weird thing is that Garretson's later testimony about seeing Pat chasing Abby across the yard, seeing the door handle move, etc., actually makes much more sense than what he told the police at the time. I think that he saw and heard enough to be frightened, tried calling the police (not calling to get the time like he originally said), discovered that the lines were cut/phone was dead, and was scared out of his wits. He probably stayed up all night, terrified, gradually falling asleep from exhaustion.

The thing is, he repeatedly gave the same story, over and over again to the police, and passed a lie detector test. I don't know if he actually saw what was going on outside, but he heard enough to be frightened. One question--if he was playing his music so loudly, why didn't the killers realize that someone was in the guest house?

The best theory as to why he survived is that the killers may have assumed that Parent was the caretaker.

If Manson came back to the house that night, and there's a lot of evidence that he did, Garretson may have escaped death twice within a matter of hours. In addition to the things mentioned by several posters above, the blood on Sharon Tate's body was smeared, as if she had been moved.

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[–] eadaoin7 12 years ago

Good question. According to the book, he was wearing headphones with the volume between 4 and 5. May not sound like much to today's audience, but back then stereos gave off a big sound and headphones wrapped around your whole ear so as to block out all surrounding noise. Bugliosi said that Garretson never wavered on that fact, and that was proof that he was telling the truth - they did sound tests with a similar stereo setup and it proved conclusive to Garretson's testimony. I actually have a set of "cans", as they call those old headphones today, and it doesn't take much volume to make the rest of the world go away.

I still have my doubts as to whether he really did see anything that night, or whether the power of suggestion for 40 years has planted a false memory (which wouldn't be entirely his fault). But, if they never asked him specifically during the test about seeing anything, then he wouldn't have answered either way; so, he was able to pass the lie detector.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

But, if they never asked him specifically during the test about seeing anything, then he wouldn't have answered either way; so, he was able to pass the lie detector.

My understanding is that they did indeed ask him during the polygraph if he saw anything, to which he responded "no".

The polygraph examiner determined that Garretson was truthful about having no role in the murders, but that he was not truthful in stating that he saw nothing that night.

This is what Wikipedia says:

The LAPD officer who conducted the examination had concluded Garretson was "clean" on participation in the crimes but "muddy" as to his having heard anything.

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[–] babel_on_5 11 years ago

Agree with the dope paranoia... especially if he heard weird sounds or the dog was acting strangely. Rented an old farmhouse years ago; one stormy night I smoked a doobie and for the first time heard limbs scratching against the window. After a while I got used to that, but every so often there'd be a thump that sounded like someone hitting the wall. I put on my shearest panties and went out to investigate... oops, just kidding... wrong movie. Anyway it was spooking the hell out of me and I never did figure out what it was.

One also has to remember that the Family members were chronic LSD, pot, and God knows what else abusers, and despite what pot legalizers say, it does make you forgetful. I think it's feasible that Katie, in the excitement, forgot all about the guest house or maybe as another poster said earlier, she heard the dog growl or bark and thought better of it. I know they said they were clean that night, but months of serious abuse don't wear off in one day.

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I grieved I had no shirt until I met a woman who had no pants.

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[–] JCrewgirl 12 years ago

Here is some real life footage of Garretson right after he was released from prison he looks scared as heck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPi1rsmwUBo

You're killing me and I'm already dead!!!

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[–] wallacesawyer 12 years ago

Only 19. Looks like he'd break down if he weren't surrounded by hundreds of people.

http://www.freewebs.com/demonictoys/

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[–] Rocknrollcola 12 years ago

It is difficult to say. I always thought that they thought Steven Parent was the caretaker leaving the property for the evening.

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[–] jtyroler 11 years ago

If you look at photos of the guesthouse, there were a lot of windows - at least in the front. The LAPD photos of the guest house didn't show many curtains. http://www.cielodrive.com/photo-archive/guest-house-interior-01.php Not all of the guesthouse was full of windows, but you can see the stereo in this photo.

I don't think William Garretson will ever have a satisfactory answer to his question.

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[–] cataclysm1071 11 years ago

Garretson's credibility with me, was lost when he claimed he believed the story of "Rosie Tate Polanski", a nut job woman who claimed she was Sharon's unborn child. Garretson even struck up a friendship with this woman.

You can search Youtube or the internet for her name, and it will take you to the interview with her and Garretson. She claimed that she lived through the murder, and was later "rescued"...pretty much impossible for a fetus to live long after his/her mother stops breathing, without significant brain damage to the unborn child.

My conclusion, just how Garretson acts...is that he is probably mildly retarded or brain damaged.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] jbsptfn 8 years ago

If Manson came back to the house that night, and there's a lot of evidence that he did, Garretson may have escaped death twice within a matter of hours. In addition to the things mentioned by several posters above, the blood on Sharon Tate's body was smeared, as if she had been moved.

According to Nikolas Schreck (author of The Manson File), he has admitted to going back that night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeYIRns9Obg

Manson was aggravated that Watson killed Tate and Sebring. So, they did go back and move the bodies around to try to frame three Canadian drug dealers that were at Tate's house before.

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