I am trying to write this without spoilers, but please forgive me if I fail!
There are two "versions" of the film circulating. One has cut out the explaination of why Joanna Grey was a spy. Her parents were killed in the Boer War, in a British concentration camp ( "Oh so you thought the Germans invented them do you?" she asks Steiner).
The DVD I have (Classic Collection circulated by Carlton) has that part cut out. Its a shame.
I got my version free with a UK newspaper, and I believe it explains this.
shareCarlton have released a new 2 disc set in the UK (region 2) with 2 versions of the film. Disc 1 contains the extended version running 145 minutes and disc 2 has the original theatrical version running 130 minutes. Both are anamorphic widescreen (2.35:1) and excellent quality. I used to have the old full screen version released by Carlton and the 2 disc set blows it away.
Be horny.
The new 2-disc set is pretty good & all the missing scenes seem to be included on the extended cut.The main gripe I have (for all those with surround sound)is the extended version hasn`t been upgraded to 5.1 whereas the cut one has.Make any sense to you?
shareFunny thing is in all the new cuts they have still left in the yellow transit van. Anyone else spotted it?
shareThe Artisan version also has numerous cuts (including that one). Beware!
"I'm not reckless . . . I'm skillful!"
That is a real interesting thing to know!!!
One reason I love this film so much is beause all of the charactor are in depth. While they are for Nazi Germany, they are not nessesarily "nazis" or even bad men who believe this whole scheme idea will work... but just good soilders dedicated to their job.
The Admiral (real peron BTW who was executed and killed later in the war) talks about Hitler ranting and raving and his frightful staff and what an absurb plan this is. Duval orders his secretary away to escape the firing squad which he knows now is his fate. Caine and his men try to help a young jewish girl and Cain speaks his mind to an SS officer!! Cain's men also save a young girls life and has no intention of harming any of the civilian hostages and Traet Williams even knows it. Sutherland is is fighting for the IRA to defeat Britian not just to bomb some cars which he admits to doing to much!!
Grey seems like one person can pass as a villian- and even she is doubtful of the consiquences of her actions when she realizes she may never return to her home....the fact that she is doing this for a reason does give her some in depth for what she is doing! The Brittish do not have a clean slate in their history either!
We all have to understnad when a Dictator (Hitler, Hussaine, etc) is in power nobody has the right to question or even state their mind (to the autorities) otherwise you are shot! If someone like Himmler tells you to jump you say how high! (previoulsy stated in another message board)
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Hi Kit Sung,
I think you are wrong to say that people under a dictatorship always have a choice to disobey.
I bet that whatever country you are in there are all manner of immoral things done by your government but you do not disobey your governemnt either because you are ignorant of their crimes or because you dont think its important enough to ruin your life and i bet you wont even be executed or put into a concentration camp if you did resist your government.
To say that all Germans or even all Gemran soldiers are guilty of war crimes is idiotic and dangerous.
If you stand by this high moralistic notion then all British are guilty or war crimes. so too are all Americans and all Japanese and all Chinese and all Russians. If they are all Guilty then all must be punished which according to the Allies at the end of the war the punishment is death. Therfore your high morality says that hundreds of millions of men women and children must die because of the crimes committed by their governments!!!
If we are responsible for the actions of our leaders then people in non dictatorships are even more guilty than the rest because we have the right to depose them at will and they only rule in our name, not in their own (in theory).
Therefore what im really trying to say is GROW UP.
The arguement that the Germans are guilty of Hitlers crimes has more to do with justifying the rape, torture and murder of Germans in 1945 and to provide a moral screen to our own leaders of the time destroying Gemrany that was and ressurecting it as a Democratic state and Communist state.
Hitler, Stalin and a few others in history were c-ts. The people they ruled were just people. If you cant forgive them for not getting themselves killed resisting their leaders the moment they realised they were doing bad things then you are as cruel and twisted as any dictator.
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OK Kit-Sung,
First up lets talk about what you actually wrote in the post I commented on shall we?
You stated:
“Thats such BS! Basically you are saying that every act committed under a dictator is not your own fault, because you had no choice. So basically that means only Hitler is responsible for WWII and the Holocaust and everybody else was just following orders. Thats what many Germans wanted to believe, “
And you stated:
“There is always choice and to say you had to act in a certain way is simplistic and certainly doesn't make certain actions less wrong and criminal.”
Ok and lets see what you are now saying regarding that post:
“And where exactly do I say that every german is a criminal of war? All I said was that the notion that there is no choice at all is stupid.”
And:
“That does not mean that people who know that their goverment commits crime MUST act, it just means that if they dont act and thus collectivly allow something to happen they cannot just claim that they couldn't have done anything.”
Your posts clearly suggest that all Germans are guilty of their governments crimes therefore that would make all Germans war criminals. Your basic notion of choice does this. Your notion isn’t complex at all, that’s your problem.
Your argument seemed to me to be that somebody has the choice to resist their government once they know that their government is committing immoral or illegal acts. You then go on to state that should these people choose not to resist their government then they can no longer claim and be considered as innocent of the crimes committed by that government. Simple isn’t it Kit-sung.
Mtch 34 admired this film because of the human portrayal of the German characters. You shot that down suggesting that they were all guilty of starting world war 2 and the holocaust. You stated as a fact that no German soldier would or did save a Jewish woman and that the very idea was stupid. All of this seems too harsh and immoral to me Kit-sung. I explained why I find fault with your argument but I talked about it within the context a whole nation be it Germany or any other nation during the war or even any nation today. I did this because the language you used in our post was very general and non-specific over who you were referring to within Germany during the war.
You used the words YOUR and YOU and EVERYBODY in your post. I can see that you may have been referring solely to the German characters portrayed in the film but the film portrays men of many ranks and from several different services. If you are saying that only these people have choice then that seems to me to be an artificial limit to the concept. Why does a soldier have the choice to resist his government but a civilian doesn’t? Why should a member of the armed forces be guilty of his or her governments crimes and a civilian should not? If you have a specific group or rank in mind within the armed services then please explain who.
As I was not sure of just who it was within the German nation that you were claiming should have resisted their government I talked in terms of everyone who is subject to a government. Your argument seemed to me to be so simple that it could potentially include every citizen within a nation. Whats more is that in your second post that I am now replying to you repeat the claim that the people you are talking about will be collectively responsible. Collectively is another general, non-specific phrase that could in all reason refer to the entire German nation unless you specify just who it is you are referring to.
So really if you want to set me straight on my apparent misunderstanding of your argument then please tell me who these “many Germans” are that you are referring to. Who in your opinion should have resisted the German government of 1933 to 1945. When should they have started to resist? I would also like to ask you what punishment you think was appropriate for these people who failed to resist and then claimed to be innocent. Or is all this too complex for you?
To try and help you understand my point of view Kit-sung imagine if you were a man conscripted into your nations army under a government that you knew to be guilty of starting an illegal war. Would you then be guilty of starting that war as well if you fight in it? If you vote to keep a government that you know is guilty of mass murder then are you also innocent of that crime or guilty? Are you so brave and so morally strong that you would choose torture and death over obedience Kit-sung?
To me your simple morality extends further than just members of the armed services. If it is a simple matter of choice then members of the support services and civilians must also be subject to the same morality. Do you disagree Kit-sung? If so then why?
You see Kit Sung we are all serving our government right now regardless of whether we are soldiers or officers or doctors or civilians. If it is a SIMPLE question of choice then we are all capable of making that choice and we can all choose to resist regardless of our age and profession. Simple that isn’t it Kit-sung?
When I stated that a citizen MUST act I was proposing how a citizen including a soldier can avoid being classed as guilty of genocide or of starting a war by your simplistic approach to morality. The fact that you have taken issue with me using this word seems out of place to me. It seems to me that you are accepting my criticism of your argument that a citizen is not REQUIRED to resist his or her government if it starts a war or commits genocide but if he or she CHOOSES not to then they are guilty of the same crime. That seems idiotic and immoral to me to condemn citizens as guilty in this way.
My argument is that a genuine CHOICE does not exist even in a Democracy let alone in a Dictatorship. Even if it does exist and someone chooses to live an ordinary life (even in the armed services) then I still don’t see how that person must be guilty of their national governments crimes. Hold on Kit-sung I was talking about PEOPLE there not anyone specific. Maybe if you enlightened me as to who you have been talking about in Germany then I could refer to them instead. The subject is more COMPLEX than a simple question of choice Kit-sung. Don’t you see that?
Please by all means tell me where I have misunderstood your argument and explain to me what specific part of German society you were referring to that is in your opinion guilty of starting ww2 and guilty of the holocaust. I would love to know.
I know this is a rather long post Kit-sung but I have tried to explain and repeat myself so that an even an idiot can get it but considering how you argued your case in your post that replied to mine then, you probably wont understand it, but thats Okay.
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"Its really a pity that a film like this and also Cross of Iron and many other war films buy into this myth and present somebody like Steiner as a man who saves a jewish woman! To believe that is just plain stupid! "
Admiral Canaris risked his life and career to save hundreds of jews, often giving them credentials as German agents/spies so that they could flee.
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Yep, the novel explains this in more depth. Namely how Grey's family was killed in the war by the british and she was also raped by english troops. Sorta explains why she helps the nazis...sorta the lesser of two evils. The Boers essentially moved into the interior of South Africa and the British left them alone because it was harsh wilderness and pretty much worthless to the Empire...that is until Gold and Diamonds were discovered...
Admiral Canaris was the head of the Abwehr(German spy service) and is viewed by many today as a loyal German but an anti-nazi. Using his extensive spy network to help the allies and enemies of the state. He was executed as such for being a traitor to the regime.