Everything makes sense in this film. I mean it all comes together, but the thing I could never figure out was why Turner didn't seek revenge on Joubert for this.
Was Turner's girlfriend in on Atwoods plan, and she was eliminated as loose end.
That was the only thing I never got. Turner comes to respect the guy that killed his girlfriend.
There is a certain sophistication with this film that must be understood: Turner and Joubert are actually in the same camp . . . the oriental girl was outside . . . she had to go . . .
shareFair enough, and you're right, but there should have been at least a small exchange on this somehow. I mean this fine film takes off quickly from the station, it could have used that.
shareHe does in the book.
BOOK SPOILER!
After the Joubert character reveals his intention to return to Europe, Turner follows him by disguising himself then shoots him while he's trapped in an airport bathroom cubicle with his trousers round his ankles!
A lot of the book deals with Joubert waiting to seize on an amateur mistake, and in the end he himself makes it.
I've been carefully thinking about that girl friend . . . I wondered: "Could she have been the reason for the massacre?" . . . it's odd how Joubert singles her out and regrets what he must do to her. . . could she have been a Chinese penetration operative . . . Turner became attracted to her . . . and somebody decided this must end . . . something strange with that entanglement . . .
shareI'm suddenly thinking there's something to this idea. She's seems to know, moments after she sees Joubert, that she's doomed. She isn't surprised or shocked - she is virtually resigned to her fate and actually handles herself with the professional detachment of someone who knows that death can call at any time.
sharePlease consider re-watching the scene. Three men, who clearly don't belong in her building, have snuck up behind her and into her office, with at least one carrying an semi-automatic weapon (Ingram MAC-10, I believe)...Of course she's shocked and frightened! Unaware her co-workers have been shot, she quickly assesses the situation and tells the men she, "Will not scream" in the hope that at the very least they will not shoot her. Not all women would immediately scream hysterically. I don't think there's anything in her demeanor to suggest she's aware that she could be shot and killed at any time. We're shown in the beginning of the film how little concern or regard Redford has for the building's security procedures. Although they're all working for the CIA, it initially appears it's only in the most tangent form.
"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it." Norman Maclean
I disagree that he didn't kill Joubert because she was Asian they are both white - really? I'm not sure if that's what you meant, but that's what it sounded like.
This is a sophisticated film, and Turner was basically a pacifist, I think, and wouldn't kill out of revenge. Killing Joubert would, indeed, "put them in the same camp".
Alas, the whole problem may have stemmed from that girl friend . . . she was too close to Turner, or maybe somebody, somewhere discovered something . . . and it had to be reported, or dealt with . . . I think there's something more going on . . .
shareI'm sorry but there should of been some extra closure about this relationship.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Joubert and Condor are one of a kind, that's nice, but CLOSURE WAS NEEDED FOR THIS RELATIONSHIP. Anything, but just put a dotted period on the thing.
Otherwise, everything makes sense. It's a well done. No PARALLAX VIEW, but a damned good film.
Okay, yes, but perhaps the filmmakers left it to the audience to figure out . . . she was marked for elimination, and anyone in close contact to her . . . Turner would have to go . . .
shareNahhh. Given Condor's make-up - Pacifist who has to become cold blooded by living on his wits - the smart taking it from the strong - a man who must have answers and be righteous - no. Not Condor.
If they can go into detail about another worker calling in sick, making the plot more complicated, but resolving that, effectively, with him being killed in his home to illustrate, I guess, they'll hunt you down anywhere, they could have put a period on that Condor/relationship.
The only thing I can figure is that if they knew enough about his relationship with his friend Sam to bring Condor in, and this irritates Condor, then I guess maybe Condor feels you can't trust anybody, not even your girlfriend. But my problem with that is that there was no evidence that the girfriend was doing anything other than the job she, Condor, and the slain were paid for doing. In other words everybody that got slain, including Condor, were equals in what they were paid to do, unless they were all in on something Condor was not.
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True . . . but I don't believe he ever thought that the job he had would turn into "Nightmare Castle" . . . he may have sincerely liked his job, enjoyed his co-workers--as we see at the beginning . . . and then the horror hits . . . I don't believe he ever expected such a thing . . . yes, afterward it must've dawned on him that this sort of thing does go on . . .
shareThis is why you never date your coworkers. LOL
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."
-Dennis
Too true. I'd be careful about referring to people as "oriental" though...
shareFor the love of God, it's 2015, she's, "Asian" not Oriental.
"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it." Norman Maclean
The girlfriend was only singled out because they couldn't point blank shoot a person standing in front of a window.... it wouldn't be a covert raid if bodies start falling through the glass
shareIt wouldn't even necessarily be that, all it would take is a stray bullet from the machine gun to shatter the glass pane and draw the attention of anyone on the street.
Joubert is a weapon, a tool paid to kill (in an operation funded by an element of the CIA no less), he makes this clear when he eliminates Atwood and does nothing to Turner because it is not a part of his contract and further elaborates this point in his speech about being free from the cause. If someone shoots your girlfriend do you seek revenge on the gun (Joubert) or the person really pulling the trigger (Atwood & his co-conspirators)?
The girlfriend was only singled out because they couldn't point blank shoot a person standing in front of a window.... it wouldn't be a covert raid if bodies start falling through the glass
yeah, the asian girlfriend who he got over about 10 seconds after she was murdered.
he was so grief stricken that he had sex with the stranger he just kidnapped.
i guess 'cause he liked her crappy snapshots.
sensitive guy.
and of course she happily had sex with the guy who just kidnapped her at gunpoint.
i guess 'cause he said he liked her crappy snapshots.
and because he's robert redford.
to me, pretty bad writing.
Pretty good marketing, though. Check out the initial publicity posters for the film to find out what sold a lot of tickets for this film in 1975.
shareNot everyone lives inside some Quentin Tarantino's wet dream. Plus Redford's too busy trying to stay alive during this short period of time over which the film takes place to entertain any far-reaching retribution fantasies. And Atwood WAS killed.
"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan
At that point revenge would have been the last thing in Turner's mind . . . of course, it could be something else . . . how close was he to the girl . . . was it that deep? . . . there may be other variables involved . . .
shareTurner's not shooting Joubert is but one of innumerable illogical plot-points in this movie. Every time I see this scene I shout "Shoot the bastard - he murdered your girlfriend!" Instead, he seems to develop a man-crush for the guy.
The only explanation that comes to mind is that Turner figured that Joubert would be clever enough to surrepticiously unload the .45 before handing it to Turner; if Turner tried and failed to shoot Joubert, Joubert would then shoot Turner. So, he chickened out.
Trying to make sense of all the elements of this movie that make no sense will make you dizzy.
I don't remember if there was anything that indicated the Asian girl was all that much more than a dinner date for Turner. It seemed more like she was there just as a plot contrivance so Turner wouldn't be going to the other couple's apartment alone, maybe so the audience wouldn't think Turner was some kind of reclusive, book-reading geek. The filmmakers wanted to make it believable that Turner would be at ease seducing Faye Dunaway, and that's pretty much the only reason for the Turner-Asian girl relationship, whatever it might have been.
Still, it is odd that Turner didn't seem vengeful to kill Joubert in the least, if not for the Asian girl, for the entire CIA staff that was murdered. They were his co-workers who he presumably had a good working relationship.
Turner begins to see that Joubert not his real enemy, but the men who hired him are. Joubert is a professional killer; ironically it's nothing personal with Joubert. It's a job to him. He's cynical about nationalism and ideology. I don't think Joubert enjoys killing. I think he was trained to kill in the military and probably by the German intelligence. He's definitely a sociopath and fatalistic. He knows one day he will be eliminated when he's no longer useful.
"No one forgets the truth, Frank, they just get better at lying."-Richard Yates🔍