Wait, huh? What? Why....


So this clandestine literary agency is reading every book in the world and looking for common patterns or something in their plots... Ok, but why would they be looking for strategies in fictional books? What is the purpose of this? Who would have any use for this?

And I still don't understand what Turner discovered that was so important. Or I understand, but I don't get how he discovered it or how he came to his conclusion. Why would a secret CIA plan be in some fictional book being printed in numerous languages? Who wrote the book? What is the book about? Is this all coincidence? Why? WTF?

I'm still utterly confused by this movie.



~ That's much too vulgar a display of power, Karras.

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Fictional books are the best source . . . why not?

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[deleted]

I understand that, but my main question is about the book that Turner found. Was it written by Altwood's people, as sort of a code for their plans to invade a Middle Eastern country?

~ That's much too vulgar a display of power, Karras.

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Well, I myself believe that that book business was simply a cover for something much deeper . . . it may have triggered a negative reaction in the upper echelons, though I think it's something else that's really going on . . . whatever Turner uncovered just made it worse for him in the eyes of certain superiors . . .

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I understand that, but my main question is about the book that Turner found. Was it written by Altwood's people, as sort of a code for their plans to invade a Middle Eastern country?

I don't think it was actual plans per se. According to Higgins during the film's finale; it was more of a "just in case" contingency plan if the US Oil crisis of the 70's had reached a certain level. Perhaps Atwood wanted to make sure certain things to be in place when the right time came.

What makes it so disturbing is not only that Higgins sees the practicality of the Atwood's plan; but also goes to such great lengths (along with the rest of the CIA) to protect the secrecy of the plan.


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The movie has a plot hole?!?
EVERY FRIGGIN' MOVIE HAS A FRIGGIN' PLOT HOLE!!!!!

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Atwood was actually planning to do it.

Listen to Turner at the end with Higgins.

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Turner kinda accidentally stumbled onto Atwood's plan by readin a particular book and reporting on it to headquarters. If Atwood carried out the plan, Turner as an outsider in this rogue group woulda known it was Atwood who did it by way of Wicks who was Turner's chief.

Turner woulda connected the dots to Atwood. He and the whole Literary Society front had to be eliminated because they also may have seen or worked on Turner's report.

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Ok, that makes sense.

I guess what I don't understand is how Turner stumbled upon Atwood's plan. Why hide a top secret contingency plan in a published book?

~ I'm a 21st century man and I don't wanna be here.

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I think it was explained that Turner read everything and his job was to gleen anything in the way of plots that the CIA could use or were using. I think that somewhere it's explained in the movie ( or insinuated) that Turner stumbled onto a book or story that just by chance matched Atwood's plan.

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Yeah.

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I guess what I don't understand is how Turner stumbled upon Atwood's plan. Why hide a top secret contingency plan in a published book?

Not that I would do it myself; but I believe that the idea was to have the plan "hidden in plain sight". Who would even think to use published media as a means to convey secret plans?
(Yeah; it's kinda of a stretch but still....)

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The movie has a plot hole?!?
EVERY FRIGGIN' MOVIE HAS A FRIGGIN' PLOT HOLE!!!!!

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Back in those days the tradecraft for delivery message to your cohorts in a grand conspiracy was putting an ad in a newspaper or using a book for stenography cipher. The INSTITUTE was using old IBM mainframes (the supercomputer of the day) to comb through millions of lines of scanned text. You see the Japanese girl using a book page flipper to actually have the computer read the book into memory. It was Turner's (et al) job to look for stenography patterns in them with the computers help.

Actually the computer would find them and flag it for the analyst (Turner) to followup with hum discretion to see if the human agreed with it's assessment. This still goes on today and it's called OSINT (open source intelligence). Now it's more than books it's the Internet, SMS, Email, phones, etc. But it's more a N.S.A. thing then a C.I.A. thing today.

Evidently Turner kept sending reports back to Wickes in Langley about an unfolding plot to take over SW Asian oil fields and start a fake war to facilitate it. Much like starting a war over WMD's to disguise a huge oil pipeline between Caspian Sea and Gulf of Hormuz. Sound familiar? The secret messages were going out from C.I.A. Assistant Director and his cohorts in different countries. And Turner and his team uncovered it. What an inconvenient thing to happen? They probably thought like you "Who could actually figure all this out from just reading books?" Underestimating computers and smart analysts I guess.

Their way of cleaning up their own mistakes was wet-work (aka murder). Never has been a good idea since 1947 when C.I.A. was started as a intelligence clearing house by POTUS Truman. Killing people is messy, and well, very stupid when leverage always seems to works. Even the best wet-work contractors can screw the pooch as Joubert actually did. He made too many operational errors which he admits to in the movie. How the C.I.A. got to be a secret paramilitary operation is anyone's guess.

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This is one of the best replies I've had in IMDB. That was a great read, and yes, now that I think about it it does make sense for plans to be hidden in print or video media. Never knew steganography was a real strategy used by intelligence agencies. Reminds me of the recent TV show "Rubicon" where a CIA analyst discovers a secret plot in a newspaper cssword puzzle, although the show was no where near as good as TDotC though.

~ I'm a 21st century man and I don't wanna be here.

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Very good answer indeed...I just watched this movie for the first time and I find alarming similarities between this fictional plan and what happened in Iraq from 2003.

It almost makes me think the "plan" really existed in the 70s and they made it happen in the 2000s.

For the hidden messages inside books, I assume they were looking for some KGB orders to spies in the West and accidentally found the CIA plan.

Regarding wet works, it always been a part of black ops...think about Castro's assassination attempts. And the bay of the pigs, of course.

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

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Turner read an obscure (poorly selling) spy novel that had been translated into Dutch, Spanish, Arabic--not the usual languages for popular novels. What raised red flags for Turner was the usual languages for English spy novel translation would be French, German, Spanish, and Italian. Also, Hebrew more likely than Arabic.

Most petroleum engineers like my dad picked up on the significance a of these particular languages: the Dutch own Shell Oil, South America--especially Venezuela is a huge oil producer along with OPEC in the Middle East. I saw this movie during Christmas break in 1975. I remember all the oil rationing in 1972-73. Long gas lines. You could only buy gas on even or odd days according to your inspection sticker or license plate number. Some states had special stickers for your windshield.

Even though I was 14, I knew that oil was involved when they mentioned Dutch and Arabic languages.
If you want to read lose sleep at night, read about the Carlyle Group, Saudis, and CIA.

"No one forgets the truth, Frank, they just get better at lying."-Richard Yates🔍

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If you want to read lose sleep at night, read about the Carlyle Group, Saudis, and CIA.

One source is a 1985 book titled The American House of Saud: The Secret Petrodollar Connection by Steven Emerson, which exposed the oil connections in the Middle East, particularly during the two "oil shocks" of the 1970s.

Emerson went on to become a "terrorism expert" with a specific animus toward Arabs and Muslims, which comes across in his book along with the obligatory hosannas for Israel. It was Emerson who, as news of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing broke, wasted no time in declaring that it was undoubtedly the work of Middle Eastern terrorists with no regard for human life. (Remember that this is before 9/11, although after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing led by Ramzi Yusef.) Then Emerson was forced to backpedal when homegrown terrorist Timothy McVeigh was caught for the crime.

Nevertheless, my recollection is that Emerson does some decent reportage on relationships between the Saudis and the West; he particularly notes that while the Arab oil-producing states were making loads of petrodollars (remember how Britons were alarmed at how the Arabs were buying up London? It's even in an Elvis Costello song), Western oil companies were also raking in huge profits as a result of refining and distributing all those petroleum products, and although average Americans might have been hurting economically during the mid-decade recession, those oil companies such as Standard, BP, Royal Dutch Shell, and the others that used to be known collectively as the "Seven Sisters" were doing quite nicely during this time.

erudite925, it is interesting that you say your father was a petroleum engineer. My father was too, a chemical engineer in oil refining (at one point we lived in Kuwait for two years), and there is no question that between the two 1970s oil shocks we were living fairly high on the hog. My father also had a tendency to get fired, but like programmers during the tech boom, he would get another job practically the next day.

After the 1979 oil shock resulting from the Iranian revolution, and then Iraq's 1980 invasion of Iran, the good times ended with a worldwide recession that did not correct itself until the mid-1980s. Ironically, my father, then working for Fluor, did a lot of work in Iran in the 1980s despite all the "Great Satan" rhetoric and the enmity between Iran and the US. Of course, it helped that he also had Canadian citizenship. Capital knows no country.

As for the Carlyle Group, can you say George H.W. Bush Administration? Bush, James Baker, Frank Carlucci, Richard Darman. No surprise that they were so eager to liberate Kuwait following Iraq's 1990 invasion. I know Craig Unger has the book House of Bush, House of Saud, but I haven't read it yet.

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"The past is never dead. It isn't even past." -- William Faulkner

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Well, Real Life imitating Drama & all that.

After the movie made it big, someone in the KGB saw & actually thought it was such a good idea that the CIA had to have been doing it already (we weren't) so the KGB started it's own office.

It worked so well that the program went from a small office with a few staff to an entire building with hundreds of staff.

Even they reportedly used fictional books, published & written so they wouldn't sell, to carry codes through customs who would ignore it as fiction even if they took the time to skim through it.

Lots of travelers carry books & if its a book that was published & you can track it, why be suspicious of it?

The author, James Grady, made the program up, but after the Soviet Union fell a lot of the KGB files were included & he added the story to the new preface.



"Few people understand the psychology of dealing with a highway traffic cop."

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