Maybe one of the hardcore fans here can answer this.... - The Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975) Discussion

[–] ermathebody75 10 years ago

I wouldn't say Frank raped her, but its ovious why shes called a slut, two differnet men in one night, neitherof whom are her fiance Brad. But Janet being a slut isn't really pushed into the story that much, its just in there to show Frank N Furters sexuality, and that his 'children' turn on him. Eddie with Columbia, and Rocky with Janet. But to answer your question, i don't know how or who calling her a slut started.

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[–] CelticRose 10 years ago

That's still slut shaming though, isn't it? Kind of hypocritical for a fandom that's supposed to have a positive view of sexuality. (That's another thing that puzzles me: Frank isn't exactly a positive example of alternative sexuality, so why do people associate the movie and fandom with such?)

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[–] ermathebody75 10 years ago

Frank is a positive example. Encouraging people to 'give yourself over to absolute pleasure' and 'to swim the warm waters of sins of the flesh'.

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[–] Evcannon123 9 years ago

oh brother......give it up slut.

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[–] Ramonesgirl707 10 years ago

While I agree that slut shaming is a bad thing, you are reading too much into this. It isn't a way to shame Janet, it's simply a way to make fun of her character, like calling Brad *beep* I think half the joke is that she's so ~pure~ to the point of annoyance at the start of the film and then has sex with both Frank and Rocky, so it's poking fun in that way rather than in a "just shame women for having sex" way, I think.
Plus all of the fans I know are definitely not slut-shamey people, myself included x1000 (I can actually a total feminist killjoy.)

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[–] CelticRose 10 years ago

Okay, that does make sense. I thought it might be something along those lines. I consider myself something of a feminist as well, and I'm well aware that Rocky Horror fans are not the slut-shaming types (hence my confusion on the matter).

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] red_barchetta 10 years ago

You're not being a tight-ass at all--more people need to ask these kinds of questions for sure.

Here's my take on it. When I was with my shadow cast (Forbidden Fruit, Eugene's ONLY Rocky Horror Shadow Cast!), the script we wrote only directed us to call Janet a slut for the first half of the movie, i.e. before she has any kind of sex at all. This has the effect of reversing the audience's preconceptions about what a slut is. Every time Janet does anything for the first half of the movie, we call her a slut, to the point where the word ceases to mean anything.

After Frank and Janet's encounter (which I would hesitate to call rape, since she ultimately gave consent, but she was definitely coerced and deceived by Frank, which is not good at all), the cast calls her a slut only once more, but by that point, the audience has become so desensitized to the connotations of the word that they fail to make the connections between the word and what it means. By the time the word might actually have some teeth, it's become a funny noise that the audience makes whenever they see Janet. And after that one time, the cast doesn't call her a slut again for the rest of the movie.

That's how I justify it for myself, anyway. If you're truly uncomfortable with it, I know some casts who refrain from slut-calling and just say "Weissssssss" whenever Janet does something.

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[–] CelticRose 10 years ago

Thank you for your thoughtful response!

That's a good approach to it...kind of thought-provoking, actually. While I tend to overanalyze things, it's a relief to see that I'm not the only person who has asked these questions. (Given that the fanbase prides itself on acceptance and sex-positivity, I think it would be pretty hypocritical if you guys hadn't wondered about it at some point.)

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[–] gabby_bm 10 years ago

Uh... what exactly is "slut-shaming"? If a person engages in sluttish behavior, then they feel no shame in what they are doing (giving themselves over to absolute pleasure, so to speak). So calling Janet a slut for being a slut isn't any more shaming than calling David Duke a racist (is that bigot-shaming even though he takes pride in his racism?)

And yes, male or female, separately screwing two strangers in one night is being a slut. So what? Janet seemed to enjoy herself. Frank seemed to enjoy himself.
Give it over to absolute pleasure. The shaming can only occur if one feels shame about it.

**WARNING: MY POSTS MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS**
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[–] CelticRose 10 years ago

Slut shaming is when a person (in most cases, a woman) is attacked and made to feel guilty and/or inferior for their sexual behavior. It's false guilt that's imposed on you by others, not by your own conscience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming

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[–] gabby_bm 10 years ago

How can a person on screen be slut-shamed by the audience watching the film?

And if they are into giving themselves over to the pleasure, what guilt or inferiority would they possibly feel? She either wanted to boink the people she boinked or she was a rape victim.

I guess I don't really understand slut-shaming.

**WARNING: MY POSTS MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS**
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[–] CelticRose 10 years ago

Well, obviously, yeah, you're not literally trying to hurt the feelings of a fictional character. That would be pretty stupid.

I was inquiring more about the fact that a fandom that's supposed to be sex-positive and "progressive" seems (at least on a surface level) to be agreeing with society's idea that a woman who has sex and enjoys it is bad or deserves ridicule.

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[–] Morbius_Fitzgerald 10 years ago

I think its mainly because after she does have sex with Frank-N-Ferter, she starts going crazy with wanting sex as shown in songs. I'd agree with the fans for the most part about that except how mentally scarring would it be to lose your virginity to Tim Curry in drag?

"I have always valued my lifelessness."

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] CelticRose 10 years ago

If a person is easily offended, then yes, they should absolutely avoid the movie and the live showings of it at all costs. But just because someone asks questions about these things doesn't mean they're "thin-skinned" or overly politically correct. (If I were that sort of person, I wouldn't have watched the movie in the first place, and I certainly wouldn't have bothered inquiring about it from devoted fans; I would have just assumed you're all a bunch of unthinking, hypocritical *beep* and called it a day.) 😁

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[–] watcher101 10 years ago

First off, Janet ONLY had sex with Rocky, as was revealed in her song Ta-Ta Touch Me - "I've only ever kissed before.", "You mean she's...?", "Uh huh". That most likely means that she and Frank-N-Furter probably just messed around, but never actually did the deed. We knew he did go down on her though from his song Wise Up Janet Weiss - "Your apple pie don't taste so nice."

That being said, when she did do it with Rocky, there were certain variables at play. First, she was probably left wanting after whatever she and Frank-N-Footer did end up doing. She was also probably trying to get back at Brad for cheating on her too. She was distraught, emotional, and horny. That being said, when Rocky showed his affection for her, and she realized she wanted him as well, she gave in to her desires, and wasn't bothered by guilt for cheating on Brad since he had just cheated on her too, and the fact that it was a man probably left her even more distraught and confused since she may have felt that Brad found another man more desirable than her (not that there's anything wrong with being gay, I'm just examining Janet's feelings). There's also the fact that, according to her song, Brad never stirred up feelings and desires in her that Rocky apparently did. That's not to say she didn't love him, just perhaps in a different way than she fully thought, and this could perhaps be why their marriage was falling apart in the sequel.

As for calling her a slut, if you would label her as such, then you would also have to call both Brad and Frank-N-Furter man-whores or he-sluts. Brad cheated on Janet first, even if it was with a man. And how many people had Frank been with? Brad for sure, followed by messing around with Janet, intending to have a relationship with Rocky, and a past relationship with both Columbia and Eddy. So if the term "slut" wasn't specifically limited to women, who would be the real sluts?

Sexual relationships when it comes to men and women seem to have a double-standard. Guys can sleep around and be called studs while women can sleep around and be called sluts. It's hypocritical, yes, but the reason for it seems to be how courting has worked since the beginning of time. Generally, guys are meant to be the ones to chase after girls, and the girls make the guys work for it. In a crude way, they're sort of considered a conquest, or a prize to be won, and men also try to get their approval and prove to be suitable and worthy mates. When women no longer make men work, but instead just give it up, they're considered "easy", and this is when they receive the reputation as a slut. They don't want to be considered as sex objects, but then they go and act like them by sleeping around. That's why society looks tends to look down on women that sleep around, because they don't seem to consider themselves as someone worth fighting for, while men are always the ones fighting FOR them. And lets not forget the fact that, since ancient times, a woman's virginity was always considered to be sacred. At the same time, it's the opposite for men. If a man rather makes the woman work for sex, for decided he wants to wait, he's continued a wuss for not doing it. Hell, if a guy hasn't lost his virginity by the time he's 16, he's pretty much considered a loser these days. It's just the standard these days. Basically, a woman is "supposed" to make a man work for it, or she's a slut, and a man is supposed to work for it, or he's a "wuss".

That's not to say there are no exceptions or anything, it's just the norm of society, whether you share the same opinion or not. I'm not saying I share this opinion, it's just the reason behind slut-shaming. There's a similar label for men that sleep around, perverts, players, man-whores, etc, but society frowns more on women for being floozies than on men. Yes, it's sexist, but it's been the belief for thousands of years, and is not likely to change anytime soon regardless of gender equality. So that's the reason why people are so harsh on Janet's sexuality in the movie.

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[–] Talamasca2 9 years ago

First off, Janet ONLY had sex with Rocky, as was revealed in her song Ta-Ta Touch Me - "I've only ever kissed before.", "You mean she's...?", "Uh huh".

The lines from the film are "I'd only other kissed before." "You mean she...?" "Uh-huh." Before she slept with Rocky, they was speaking in the past tense. Frank asks Janet, "When we made it, did you hear a bell ring?" So, yes, Janet did have sex with Frank.

Brad cheated on Janet first, even if it was with a man. And how many people had Frank been with? Brad for sure, followed by messing around with Janet

Janet had sex with Frank first. Frank was still with Brad when Janet went back to the lab after sleeping with Frank. That's a live monitor in the lab, not a video playback. OtherWeiss, Frank would have had to sleep with Brad twice, sandwiching Janet in between his sessions with Brad. But it went: Rocky, Janet, then Brad... pool orgy. Frank was definitely the sluttiest, but you really have to admire the man's stamina! He bedded three people, all before dinner!

I'd also like to address a comment further up:

Frank is a positive example. Encouraging people to 'give yourself over to absolute pleasure' and 'to swim the warm waters of sins of the flesh'.

Right after Frank encourages people to do this, he is murdered for having a "lifestyle" that is "too extreme". That pronouncement is coming from another Transylvanian. (And since Frank succeeded in bringing Rocky to life, I'm a little confused as to what Frank's "mission" was, exactly how did he fail?) Dr.Scott calls the house a "trap" of "decadence" that they must escape.

Frank was disrespectful and violent towards his lovers, leaving a lot of turbulence in his wake. I am not sure that is a truly sex-positive role model.

Sex was definitely a theme of the film, and like all other horror films, there are consequences for sex. Ralph's car had "WAIT TIL TONITE SHE GOT HERS, NOW HE'LL 6ET HIS" sprayed on the side in shaving cream. The wedding march was played for Rocky and Frank while they were on the way to bed one another. And that was fine. Frank murdered Eddie from jealousy before he slept with Rocky. No consequences so far. (Except to Eddie. But that was pre-existing sex, not resulting from Frank sleeping with Rocky.)

But then Frank slept with Janet, giving Janet a taste of sin that made her restless and drove her from her room. Frank slept with Brad, which is discovered by Janet, giving her that extra push to sleep with Rocky. Brad and Frank then discover Janet with Rocky, and Janet's affair is outed publicly, not only in front of her fiancee, but her mentor, Dr.Scott. Frank holds a grudge against Janet. Emotional complications now abound, but the consequences are definitely heaviest for Janet. In spite of this, Janet eagerly embraces her new sex life, becoming instantly sexually liberated. (I feel released... my confidence has increased: Reality is here!) Whereas Brad seems disjointed, overwhelmed and confused. (I feel sexy, what's come over me? It's beyond me, help me, mommy.)

While it may seem accepting on the surface, the movie shows that women having sex with men other than their husband or brother only leads to trouble. (And seat wetting.) And if you're a slutty guy, the consequences WILL catch up to you eventually! Don't forget, at the end of the movie, in the Science Fiction/Double Feature (Reprise), we are told "Darkness has conquered Brad and Janet." They were not enlightened, experienced or sexually evolved, but by having extra-marital sex, they were Conquered By Darkness!

The song also tells us that "Frank has built and lost his creature." Rocky was killed after Frank, so the song must be referring to Rocky sleeping with Janet. It's the evil extra-marital sex rearing it's ugly head again! Sex is bad! Bad, bad, bad! (If you are willing to view this movie as a cautionary tale. Otherwise, don't dream it... be it!)

I also found it interesting that the other aliens from planet Transsexual, in the galaxy of Transylvania, were not transsexuals. Except for the stockings at the end, which seemed to be part of the uniform, Riff-Raff dressed as a male, Magenta dressed as a female. When imagining the audience, Frank saw older people all dressed in accordance to heteronormative earth gender roles, not at all dressed as he was. He wasn't imagining society changing to be like him, but allowed to be himself, while being accepted and admired by the mainstream.

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[–] activista 8 years ago

@watcher101

That's not to say there are no exceptions or anything, it's just the norm of society, whether you share the same opinion or not.

Actually, it was feminism that has challenged and changed some of those attitudes in the last 50 years or so. And,yeah, a lot of these attitudes are stupid,sexist and out of date-----women should have the right to enjoy sex whenever they want it, just like men do, and a lot of them do. So,yes some of those beliefs have changed,to some extent---they aren't written in stone or anything. That's why there was a sexual revolution in the '60s/70s which challenged the hell out of all those bull**** sexist notions. A woman is not "used goods" or "easy" just because she has a lot of sex----she's just having fun. Yet women have always been demonized and considered lower than dirt when they just want to explore their own sexuality, which is really stupid bull**** when you think about it. Yet men get high-fived and congratulated/celebrated on sleeping with as many women as possible. The whole double-standard thing is just plain bull****, even though it still persists to this day.

Here's a mans interesting and thoughtful take on that matter---I thought he hit on a lot of really good and pertinent points here---plus he hit the nail on the head about why these attitudes still exist, and why they're never been any damn good for women.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/harris-omalley/2014/10/the-myth-of-what-women-want-from-men/

Here's another good article from this same author about how the old definition of masculinity hurts men in some ways:

http://thoughtcatalog.com/harris-omalley/2014/12/when-masculinity-fails-men/http://thoughtcatalog.com/harris-omalley/2014/12/when-masculinity-fails-men/

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[–] elicitableporkfish 9 years ago

Also, keep in mind that the audience participation has been in practice for a very very long time - before slut-shaming. Slut-shaming became an issue when the world started becoming very aware of political correctness and the such. This movie was made long before political correctness was on people's minds.

The reason she's still called a slut in today's audience participation is because it is what's expected when watching the film or viewing the production. If the audience participation were only made within the last few years, I doubt people would be calling her a slut.

We do it because we've always done it.

And just to let you know, when I watch the movie in large groups or the one time I saw the production live, I called her a slut as well and I am a feminist. I didn't do it because I honestly thought that she was a slut. I'm very open and I do approve of exploring sexuality. I did it because it's an unwritten rule. I not only follow this one, but during the live production, I had rice, gloves, newspaper etc.

And as mentioned, calling the film-Janet a slut does nothing. She can't hear you and even if she could, Susan is only portraying a role. Also, in any stage production, a girl that auditions for the role of Janet will be aware that every night she gets on stage, there will be people calling her all sorts of names.

Personally, I'd be proud to play Janet in a live production and have the audience calling me names. I'd know that it was nothing personally against me and I would take it as a positive that they were getting into the Rocky Horror spirit.

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