Homoeroticism
Lets begin.
shareOn this subject, definately the relationship between Miranda and Sara.
It reminded me of the relationship between Jim Stark and Plato from Rebel Without a Cause. There was that hero worship that bordered on infatuation.
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The movie doesn't go into any great detail about the relationship between Miranda and Sara as they only share one significant scene together. In my opinion, the film left it up to the viewer to figure out what was happening between the two girls.
To me, Miranda came across as mature beyond her years and saw herself as a sort of big sister to Sara who seemed somewhat insecure and very clingy.
I believe that Miranda felt somewhat smothered by Sara as evidenced in her comment "You must find someone else to love". This comment may also be taken as suggesting that something a little more was going on between the girls.
I hope you enjoy the book
I believe that Miranda felt somewhat smothered by Sara as evidenced in her comment "You must find someone else to love". This comment may also be taken as suggesting that something a little more was going on between the girls.
That comment has also been taken in many interpretations I've read as an indication that Miranda knew in advance that she wouldn't be coming back from the trip to Hanging Rock. I think myself that it's intended that way, to add to the air of mystery.
But if we're talking about homoeroticism, there were pretty strong vibes in the scenes between Michael (the young English landowner) and Albert, the stablehand (who may or may not have been Sara's lost orphan brother). Whether they want to acknowledge them or not is another matter, but I don't see how anyone can miss them.
And as with the vibes between Miranda and Sara, I don't think Peter Weir intended to exploit them, and nor do I think he needed to. He just let them hang in the air, adding to the general air of Gothic sexuality about the movie. share
I guess that you can read what you want into it. Seeing as the film is set in a more upper class school at the turn of the century the phrase "You must find someone else to love" may not imply such a strong love as it might today. If you read literature from before, and sometimes around that time you'll find that the word 'love' is used far more liberally. To say that you loved a member of the opposite sex would more commonly be taken in a sense that you enjoyed their company in a friendly sense. I think that the love in this case, was more of a sisterly kind mixed in with a type of worship and admiration that Sara had for the lovable, self-confident Miranda. Sara had nobody else to look up to (an orphan; separated from her brother) and from the sounds of it was never treated right or kindly, so when somebody like Miranda came along, I guess that she couldn't help being attached to the girl that showed her kindness.
"But if we're talking about homoeroticism, there were pretty strong vibes in the scenes between Michael (the young English landowner) and Albert, the stablehand (who may or may not have been Sara's lost orphan brother). Whether they want to acknowledge them or not is another matter, but I don't see how anyone can miss them."
I have to agree there. Despite showing the boys as admiring the girls crossing the stream, I couldn't help but feel some sexual tension between the two. Maybe I'm just reading that into it (or perhaps I've just seen way too much of The Fast Show's depictions of the rich gentleman, Ralph, talking with the labourer on his land, Ted), but I could definitely sense something; even in the first scene with them fumbling with the drink bottle. Michael didn't send off the vibes as much; he did express his feelings on women very openly early in the film. But Albert, though we often see him musing over Miranda, seems to make absolutely no connection with the girl that is rescued, in fact he seems quite bored, and uninterested in her. It could just be his disappointment at not also finding Miranda, but it seemed somewhat deeper than that.
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And what about the relationship between the school principal and Miss McCraw, the teacher who dissapears??
That could explain severla things about what happened with Sara.
Loved the film!
I just rewatched the film and I indeed picked up on that. Appleyard's mention of Miss Megraw's masculine intellect and even dressing like her at the end.
I saw some paralel's between this and Sarah's relationship with Miranda.
Maybe even the reason why Appleyard disliked Sarah. Sarah's love was returned while Miss Appleyard's love was unrequited.
Did you ever notice that people who believe in creationism look realy un-evolved? - Bill Hicks
I felt it had alot to do with the repressed feelings and the old-world traditions of the super-conservative school, their feelings must have been bursting out.
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There is some homosexual vibe between miranda and Sarah, but it's hinted and subtle. In my opinion, in regard to Miranda she takes it as a sort of platonic form of friendship by Sarah, while Sarah's feelings are tuly much more intense. I reckon that Sarah herself might not be aware of the homosexual and romantic nature of her feelings for Miranda. I mean, this is early victorian 20th century here, and you can take with great certainty this girls might have never heard of homosexuality or that such a thing would exist.
Gsmooth is my stalker.
"there were pretty strong vibes in the scenes between Michael (the young English landowner) and Albert, the stablehand (who may or may not have been Sara's lost orphan brother)."
I think there is something between them - especially in their first scene together at the picnic where they are kind of looking at each other intently as they drink, but like everything else it is ambiguous.
The vibe you find between the two blokes is, in my view, resulted from something else, which nowdays most people overlook: the class difference.
One is a high society english gentlemen, most certainly a nobleman, while the other is a common man, and an australian native as well. We get two fundamental differences her,e both of social class and nationalities, one being the homecountry native and the other the colonial native. As such, and as it would happen to most people of that time, they would never be friends, they would keep their distance. But this two guys create a genuinaly true friendship that overcrossses social barriers. Today many would not think much ofit, but true is, for those times, where social class standing was paramount, you would find it quite a rarity.
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I have to agree with Memories-Of-Murder here. The only scene given as an example for any homosexual tension is the sharing of the wine bottle; and, to me, it displays social awkwardness more than anything. Because of their difference in status, they're unsure of how to act around each other.
Otherwise, I don't see how anyone can miss that these two are as heterosexual as they come. Both are fascinated when they glimpse the girls walking in the woods. Although Albert is more crude in his assessments, he pegs Michael as one who thinks as animalistically as he does (though I disagree and find that Michael is just more romantic). Michael has dreams about the girls (that leave him in "cold sweats" no less... does that sound gay to you?) Note the way he describes their features in detail to the police constable. They've definitely left an impression on him, particularly Miranda, for whom he feels an especially strong attraction that borders on a spiritual connection. And, if we needed more proof, he also embarks on an obsessive search for the young women. When Irma is found and brought to his uncle's to convalesce, we see him in her bedroom, watching over her solicitously as she sleeps. No doubt, these guys - especially Michael - love women.
"The vibe you find between the two blokes is, in my view, resulted from something else, which nowdays most people overlook: the class difference."
There is the class difference and awkwardness, true. But I also think there is an undercurrent of something else going on between the two men, as is the case between the female characters.
I agree also. The "tension" between the male characters is a function of class. In the wine bottle scene, Michael wanders over to Albert out of boredom. By society's conventions, he isn't supposed to be associating with Albert. The second time that Albert hands the bottle to Michael, Michael considers wiping off the top on his sleeve and then realizes that Albert is watching him so he doesn't. This is his way of acknowledging that he is treating Albert almost as an equal. I sense no sexual tension between them at all - I think people are looking too hard for things that aren't there.
As for the girls, Sara is obviously desperately in love with Miranda. She writes poems about her all the time even leaving them on the floor of the bathroom where other girls find them. As for a physical relationship, there is no evidence of it but it is not copletely outside the realm of possibility. But remember the time so even if there was one, it was probably pretty tame. As for the other girls, I think we are just talking about the normal close bonds that form between adolescents who are isolated in a repressive environment. See "Lost and Delirious" for another take on the exclusive girls school and the resulting relationships (which does include an explicit lesbian relationship).
It seems you are a woman, don't bash me if I am wrong. But gay closeted men, especially young tend to make great remarks about women, I know I've been there, but you sure enough find what you are looking for. I don't know if it was intended in the movie, but I saw and felt the gay thing between the guys too.
sharewhy can't they be bisexual? i definitely caught a vibe between them, but i also don't doubt michael's infatuation with miranda. it all seemed the general atmosphere of the movie - people bursting at the seams with things they can't express.
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i SAID good day, sir!
I disagree. While I can, upon reflection, see the class issues as well it seemed very obvious that there was some unresolved tension as well. Albert appears more confident and a little bit older. He mentions that the rest of their party never goes on walks (i.e. they're alone and unlikely to be discovered) and that they overestimate the time needed for the journey so they have an extra hour. This plus the performances and the awkwardness about the bottle that's already been commented on, buoyed by the other themes of sexual repression and homosexual tension seems to suggest that it was at least an implied undercurrent.
shareI´m a bit surprised that so many people wish to read in gay vibes between Michael and Albert. The "bottle scene" is in fact a beautiful display of both characters both showing and claiming respect from one another despite different class.
Think about it; Albert offers Michael a drink, but does not move , rather lets Michael take a step forward to get the bottle. Albert does this as if to say "I am not your slave". Michael acknowledges this, but at the same time unconsciously and automatically wipes the bottle showing he needs to "wipe off the lower class" before he drinks. Michael then offers the bottle back to Albert in the same manner. He does not move as if to say "I noticed what you did, so you will get the same treatment". This breaks the ice, and Albert laughs at the whole thing.The next time Michael gets the bottle he does not wipe it, in effect saying "we are on the same level, despite our different class". This scene has nothing to do with homoeroticism and everything to do with breaking class barriers.
As for Sarah and Miranda, there is clearly something going on, although I don´t believe the exchange of Valentines cards particularly is any evidence of a love affair as it seems all of the girls at the school were sending each other love notes as mere signs of friendship.
Love does not have to be physical to be deep, and a person can be gay without as much as having kissed someone of the same sex. I think Miranda and Sarah had deep feelings for each other, but considering the times probably never got physical.
Just brilliant, Pearl. Feel kinda funny responding to something that was posted 5 years ago. lol.
What we have here is a failure to give a *beep*
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Definitely - I took it that it was exclusively coming from Michael though as he became agitated when Albert began to talk about the girls' attractiveness...
shareYes, I quite agree. I saw the film again yesterday, and that is what struck me. I don't think Miranda had anything more than friendly feelings towards Sara, but I think Sara felt much more than that. She even wrote poems to Miranda, which I suspect are love poems, and I think that was the only way for her to express her feelings in those days.
I also see some homosexual connections between mrs. Appleyard and miss MacGraw for the reasons mention earlier. But I don't quite see that was the intention between Michael and Albert.
They blew up Congress! HAHAHA!!!
Sarah idolised Miranda. I didn't think their relationship was even remotely homosexual, to be honest. Everyone in the film idolised Miranda, so I think that Sarah happened to be just another person who was infatuated with her. She happened to be the same age and gender as Miranda and I presume that is why everyone is jumping the gun and assuming they are lovers.
share"I don't quite see that was the intention between Michael and Albert."
It's more subtle than between the female characters, but I think it's there. It's interesting that the two guys go off together at the end of the novel, rather than go off with the female characters.
Here's another thought--that the "homoerotic" vibes between the girls are at least partly due to being hormone-driven teenagers in an overwhelmingly female environment while at school. Irma certainly is capable of showing an interest in Michael, once out of the school situation--presumably Miranda or Sarah could also have such feelings, had they had the opportunity. The idea of having emotionally intense relationships with someone of the same gender while at boarding school, yet remaining essentially straight, is not exactly new, after all. Also, Miranda's comment that Sara needs to find someone else to love could simply be concern on the part of the older, soon to be graduating girl that the younger one has seemingly no other friends and will be lonelier than ever once Miranda has gone home for good.
shareIt is interesting watching the movie again in light of this thread. Having grown up with English novels, I can't say that I know what the original author Lindsay meant, or Weir for that matter... and I've read the novel.
I do know that between the girls (Sara and Miranda) looked to me like a pretty typical non- or suppressed homoeroticism. This kind of relationship used to happen between girls and doesn't need to be sexual. It would surprise me to learn either Lindsay or Weir intended a sexualized relationship.
That goes for the men as well. I didn't see it when I watched the movie in the early eighties and I don't see it now. It may be obvious but it missed me both times.
If I had a guess, I think the artists' had little or no intention to portray homoeroticism and it may be more what filters and experiences and current sensibilities the viewer brings to the movie than what is implicit or explicit in the execution of the film (if that makes any sense).
This movie is one of my top ten of all time. I can find no faults in the acting or the film-making.
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(Ever notice that people who believe in evolution look like chimps?)
Ever notice how people who believe in god don't have a sense of humor? And irony.
Did you ever notice that people who believe in creationism look really un-evolved? - Bill Hicks
"Ever notice how people who believe in god don't have a sense of humor?"
Nope, we has some religious comedians on TV the other day. So they had some sense of humour.
"And irony."
That's just Americans...
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It's not "sci-fi", it's SF!
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But if we're talking about homoeroticism, there were pretty strong vibes in the scenes between Michael (the young English landowner) and Albert, the stablehand (who may or may not have been Sara's lost orphan brother). Whether they want to acknowledge them or not is another matter, but I don't see how anyone can miss them.
Why? Because the blonde guy didn't wipe off the bottle before drinking out of it? It makes more sense he did that to appear more rugged and not so high class. They are boys of two opposite backgrounds so there had to be some character development and show how they became friends. I think you are reading into it too much due to the fact the movie already has homoerotic subtext among women, otherwise I don't think it would be noticable. Besides, the obsession with the girls clearly shows the blond guy was straight. The dark guy on the other hand totally didn't appear gay. share
And I didn't say they were gay.
It's an underlying theme of the film, that attraction and bonding are everywhere, as a symbol of overheated fecundity (hence shots of ants millimg around their nest, and the like). Miss McGraw, I think, says something about the fecund power, and it rises in the film through muted obsession and idealisation in all directions. But the only people who are actually having sex are also the only people in the place who are relatively normal and not bound-up and overheated — the maid and the gardener.
I don't think any of them are actually homosexual — it's just a thematic illustrtion of the emotional pressure-cooker that the place is, and I think it's clear that it's tied to the bizarre power welling from the Rock. And don't forget that it's Valentine's Day, after all. Much is made of that throughout the film.
I chuckle at people who wax lyrical about homoeroticism among the girls, but shy away from acknowledging it among the two young men as well. And lame claims of "you are reading too much into that" actually reflect on themselves more than on the people they're trying to invalidate. The girls weren't gay eiher, so why would it only be among them? And why should "you see what you want to see" only apply to the people who see homoeroticism in the scenes between Michael and Albert, and not to the people who so stiffly deny it?
You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.