MovieChat Forums > The Taking of Pelham One Two Three (1974) Discussion > One odd thing...

One odd thing...

posted 17 years ago by Pearl_Jade
25 replies | jump to latest

Garber asks Petrone to get the names of all NYC train drivers who were fired for just cause. His reason is that one of the hijackers knows how to drive a train and "you don't learn that on Sesame Street."

But how did he know that one of the hijackers was driving the train? When Mr. Blue says, "We have taken over your train," wouldn't Garber assume that Mr. Blue had a gun to the driver's head and was making him drive as instructed? After all, when criminals hijack a plane, they don't kick the pilot out of the cockpit and start flying the jet on their own (not until 9/11 anyway).

I'm pretty sure that Garber did not speak with Mr. Green (even though he overheard his sneezing and said "Gesundheit" a couple of times), so Mr. Green couldn't have told him that he was now the one driving. Also, at no time do I recall Mr. Blue ever mentioning that one of his gang is now the driver.

It appears that the hijackers let the motorman go (they told him to go to the 9 separated cars and order all the passengers out). But how could Garber know this at the time he makes his assumption about a hijacker driving? Also, Mr. Blue doesn't indicate that they let Doyle, the NYC driver, go.

... unless I'm forgetting something.

[–] jrs-8 17 years ago

The original motorman was released right away and presumably called in the hijacking. The only other person who may have been capable of driving the train was the new condutor and he was killed by Mr. Blue and Garber did know that. They had to assume one of them was driving the train then.

[–] Pearl_Jade 17 years ago

But Garber asked for the names of ex-motormen BEFORE the conductor was killed. This still leaves a bit of a conundrum for me.

- What you wrote about the original motorman is reasonable: He was released right away, and that fact was relayed to Garber. (At first I thought Garber requested a list of past operators before he could possibly know that the motorman had been released. Now I agree that there must have been more time between the two events.)

- But if Garber knows that there is also a conductor on board who can (I assume) drive the train, why does he still assume that one of the hijackers is driving?

I'm not well-versed in the New York subway system, so the answers to the next two questions could clear things up quite a bit:

(1) Is there always both a motorman AND a conductor in the lead car?

(2) Is the conductor able to drive the train, or is that strictly the motorman's job?

What is the difference between a conductor and a motorman anyway? Before I saw this movie, I thought that they were one and the same (i.e., the conductor drives the train). If anyone can enlighten me, that would be great.

[–] jrs-8 17 years ago

Garber knew the conductor had been killed as punishment for shots being fired at the train. He obviously knew no one else on the train could drive it plus the fact the hijackers had control of the train. Who else could drive it but one of the hijackers?

I am not well versed on the NY Subway system either but I can take a stab at your questions.

1) I don't think the motorman and conductor are always in the front car at once. Of course the motorman is but the conductor has to collect tickets from car to car.

2) I don't think the conductor knows how to drive the train. I think he can be promoted and trained to do it but as a conductor - no.

The motorman simply drives the train. The conductor mingles with the passengers, tears tickets - things like that.

I hope that helps.

[–] Pearl_Jade 17 years ago

Thanks jrs-8. I'm still a little puzzled about conductors. I was recently on the London subway (the "tube") and before that the Toronto subway; and I never saw a conductor collect tickets, check the cars, etc. If you didn't have a valid token/ticket, then you couldn't get past the turnstile, which in turn meant that you couldn't get to the platform in order to catch the train in the first place. It seems to me that technology made the conductor's job redundant.

Then again, in 1974 they probably did need conductors. Also, I don't know if they're still used on the NYC subways. Anyone know if conductors are still around?

[–] jrs-8 17 years ago

You're welcome. The reason I mention the conductor collecting tickets is that I read the train into Chicago every day and need a ticket to give him. Actually the train is big enough there are at least 2 conductors and neither gets near the motorman. They usually hang out at the back of one of the cars.

[–] hellfire666 17 years ago

jrs-8's answer seems logical. They released the motorman because they didn't need him, otherwise they would have released the conductor.
What I don't understand is why Garber isn't sure that one of the hijackers in an ex-motorman, Mr Green tells Denny Doyle that he was written up twice. Didn't Doyle report that when he was released?

[–] spin40 17 years ago

As of 2007, both "motormen" and "conductors" are still in place on NYC subway cars.

The "motorman," of course male or female, is in the frontmost car, "driving" the train, and the "conductor" is in a car somewhere mid-train. The film has a pretty good profiling of the responsibilities of the conductor in the training scene about 5 minutes in. From my experience, strictly through observation, the conductor announces the station (from a script), opens & closes the doors and monitors to ensure that no one is being dragged by doors prematurely closing on their garments, legs, hands, etc. The only time the conductor leaves the cabin is to switch sides of the train as platforms are not always on the same side of the station. The "motorman" never leaves the cabin until the end-of-the-line, when they walk to the other end of the train to head back. Insofar as needing conductors, this is an open-debate. AirTrain, the monorail that services terminals at JFK & Newark International Airports, is on auto-pilot with neither conductor not "motorman."

[–] paulcoxwell 17 years ago

I was recently on the London subway (the "tube") and before that the Toronto subway; and I never saw a conductor collect tickets, check the cars, etc.

They used to exist on all London Underground trains. In British terminology they were known as guards rather than conductors, just like their counterparts on regular surface trains.

Unlike regular trains though, the Underground guard didn't really do much in the way of ticket checking. He was there to help with the safe operation of the train, and rode in the last car. If you've ever been in the older train stock you'll have seen the "guard's panel" at the end of a car from which he could open and close the doors on each side, signal the driver to start, etc. As a kid riding the Underground in the 1970s I loved to get in the end car and watch all the operations, as well as chat with the guard about the trains.

From his vantage point at the rear of the train, the guard could look along the platform to see when it was clear to close the doors, and to keep a watchful eye as he signaled the driver to start and the train pulled out of the station (just like the trainee conductor in Pelham 1-2-3). The older London subway cars had amber pilot lights all along the roofs above each set of doors, which didn't extinguish until that particular door was fully closed, so the guard could easily see if anything or anyone was causing a door not to shut properly.

The guards had other associated duties, like helping the driver with train equipment checks before starting the day's running, etc.

Gradually though, London Transport switched to newer train stock designed for one-man operation, and the guards have disappeared. The opening and closing of doors is now done by the driver from the cab, and CCTV cameras and monitors on the end wall of the station allow the driver himself to see what's going on along the platform without having to lean out of his cab.

[–] nvasapper 14 years ago

What you indicate about the conductor would be correct when speaking about a commuter rail line like Metro-North or the Long Island Rail Road, but not with the New York City subway system. There isn't any "ticket-collecting" or "ticket-tearing" in our system. At the time the movie was made, you bought a token from the token-booth clerk which you deposited in a turnstile to gain entrance to the system. No paper tickets! Now we use the Metrocard, which has a magnetic strip that you swipe at the turnstile to get in. The motorman drives the train and the conductor is usually stationed in a middle car, where he operates the doors and can scan the platform both along the rear and front sections of the train to check for any passengers who might get caught in the doors and dragged. You're right- upon passing the Civil Service exam for Motorman, the conductor can be promoted to that job position. He wouldn't necessarily know the ins and outs of operating the train before he gets the promotion and receives the training, although he may have a general idea of what's involved without knowing all of the specifics.

[–] tribalmaggot 15 years ago

Green said he could drive the subway car right in front of Doyle before he was released. That information was likely relayed to Garber.

[–] Venus-25 15 years ago

That was also the conductor's first day on the job. We can't assume he knew everything he would have needed to know about driving the train.

The Fabio Principle: Puffy shirts look best on men who look even better without them.

[–] JJC-3 17 years ago

In the NYC subway conductors can not drive the train, only the motorman is authorized. They do not take tickets, all fares are paid at the turnstiles.

[–] ocelot-t 16 years ago

Another point is Mr. Blue specifically states he is holding 17 passengers and the conductor hostage. From which Garber can perhaps assumer the driver isn't on the train any more. SO assuming conductors don't know how to drive trains, Garber could then make a reasonable assumption that someone amongst the hijackers knows how to drive the train.

[–] sinistercard 16 years ago

And to further add....since the hijackers are the ones "in control"...they themselves must have one of their own to operate and override the "deadman feature" and NOT rely on the regular crew to follow through...they have to make their escape...so Garber presumes correctly that one of the hijackers knows his stuff....

[–] bradford-1 15 years ago

Maybe to clarify: the conductor is a trainee and in his scene with the veteran conductor, the vet tells him he should go to "motorman school" within a few months, assuming he is kept on as a conductor. I take that to mean that motorman was a step up the ladder ( at that time, at least) and that conductors wouldn't be expected to know how to handle trains.
As an NYC resdient, I doubt if the conductor position will be eliminated anytime soon. There are too many riders, and too much train traffic to not have a human presence on each train to be able to take control in emergencies. NOT a motorman, who should be concentrating on driving, no matter what. In case of fire, a crash, or injuries, I would feel much better having a human around than some disembodied computer voice.

[–] lawson14 11 years ago

In Washington, DC Metro subway system, there is only the train operator who leans out of the window to check that all is clear before the doors are closed and there is no conductor at all. They have an emergency call button in each car so that passengers can contact the train operator. Also, they have a clearly marked system by which the doors can be opened manually by the passengers in case of emergency.

[–] lawson14 11 years ago

In the Washington, DC Metro subway system, there is only the train operator who leans out of the window to check that all is clear before the doors are closed and there is no conductor at all. They have an emergency call button in each car so that passengers can contact the train operator. Also, they have a clearly marked system by which the doors can be opened manually by the passengers in case of emergency.

[–] TorontoJediMaster 9 years ago

In the book, it says that one becomes a motorman by initially becoming a conductor. You were supposed to be on the job six months as a conductor and then could take the test to move up to motorman.

[–] Naldoman 15 years ago

The first time they talk to the hijackers, Mr. Blue says "We have total control of Pelham 123".

The second time they talk to the hijackers, Garber tries to chat up Mr. Green by asking him "How much time he's had running trains. Mr. Green goofs by starting to answer the question, until Mr. Blue shuts him up.

[–] DropGems 15 years ago

"The second time they talk to the hijackers, Garber tries to chat up Mr. Green by asking him "How much time he's had running trains. Mr. Green goofs by starting to answer the question, until Mr. Blue shuts him up."

That wasn't Garber, that was the conductor.

[–] nvasapper 14 years ago

Incorrect, sir. Garber never talks to "Mr. Green" while he's on the train. The motorman, Denny Doyle (played by James Broderick) is the one Green talks to in the motorman's booth. Green asks him if he has ever been written up and Doyle says, "Yeah, once, for running a red signal." He then asks Green if he had ever gotten written up and Green starts to say "Twice. Once on the Canarsie..." before Robert Shaw steps in and says "That's right, Mr. Green. Tell him all about yourself, why don't you."

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] vpilutis 11 years ago

In NYC it used to be like in the film conductor then train to be a motorman
(my kid brother is a Motorman he came under the old system)
Now days they train as both

See some stars here
http://www.vbphoto.biz/

[–] trainman1969-1 11 years ago

This might be an inside joke.

Around the same time as this movie was made, Sesame Street would show a film set to music, called "Listen for the Train", which depicted two children riding a train on the Staten Island Rapid Transit system (the song never mentions the SIRT by name, but does mention the Dongan Hills Station, which is on the SIRT).

In this film, there is a cab shot of the motorman, and it clearly shows one hand on the controller and the other one on the brake. So, in theory, back then you could almost learn how to drive a train "watching Sesame Street."

[–] TorontoJediMaster 9 years ago

In the Toronto system, it's two certified operators on the train at any one time. One acts as motorman, the other is the conductor. During the course of the shift, they switch roles (at the end of the line when they turn around to go the other way, usually), every run.

In the film, Doyle, the motorman, is released and takes the rest of the passengers back the station they'd just left. He would've immediately provided the details of what had happened -namely that one of the hijackers knew how to operate the train.

(I'm more surprised that the extra information Mr. Green provides -two write ups and the location of the first one- didn't help them narrow the search down a bit more.)