"Honey", "Baby", Estrada trolling for stewardess poon, i'm sure I'm leaving a lot of stuff out.
shareDon't people still call each other "Honey" and "Baby" anymore? It seems an all purpose term of endearment, men to women, women to men....
shareEvery film of that and earlier eras, had male characters addressing female co-workers that way, it's not of interest to the Wokies. Not unless the film is being heralded as progressive or a feminist milestone by people older than they are, because there's nothing they like better attacking things that people older than themselves love, and attacking their allies over petty things while leaving their real enemies understood.
I'm an old Leftie, but I think the damn Wokies are a bunch of spoiled, cowardly children.
Yeah, its too bad.
By the way, I'm older but I find often when I deal with females "at the counter" these days, and they are a bit older too, I get "honey" from them a lot. "Here you go, honey." I think it is an affectation, but I like to hear it!.
I have been known to use "Hon" on the job when appropriate, as it isn't gender-specific and doesn't imply any sort of close relationship, as "baby" does.
If people are using more professional language today I'm glad, I've never worked in an environment where the men called the women "baby" and the women called the men "Mister ____", or there was a marked inequality of personal addresses. That shit has gone the way of the dinosaur and is less missed! No, for the last few decades everyone's called everyone by their first names, bosses and housekeeping alike, it's an improvement.
Well, that's true.
I am mixing apples and oranges here -- affection between two loving partners (as Chuck Heston and Karen Black are in Airport 1975) would seem to allow for "honey" and "baby" all the time.
Male bosses calling female underlings "baby" or "honey" is out of line. Or frankly bosses to employees across all sexual persuasions. Professional terms are always better and I use them.
I'm not sure why I get called "honey" sometimes by female clerks, but it doesn't strike me as a romantic overture. Just friendly, I guess. Still...I notice it, every time.
Using "honey" to a customer is IMHO okay within limited circumstances, when things are already established as friendly and sexual interest has been tacitly ruled out. And of course it's fine between two people, when sexual interest has been firmly established, as in this movie, although strict professionalism would say that it's better used when they're alone together.
Now wasn't addressing female employees and co-workers by demeaning or sexual terms part of the whole "Mad Men" culture of the mid century? Back then men with the best jobs liked to play cock-of-the-walk at work, which must have been pretty damn hard to deal with.
Using "honey" to a customer is IMHO okay within limited circumstances, when things are already established as friendly and sexual interest has been tacitly ruled out.
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Yes.
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And of course it's fine between two people, when sexual interest has been firmly established, as in this movie, although strict professionalism would say that it's better used when they're alone together.
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I suppose indeed even in this movie, Heston continually calling Black "baby" while guiding her on flying the plane is a bit...unprofessional. Some of it is Heston's wooden acting, as well -- you never really FEEL these two are a couple.
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Now wasn't addressing female employees and co-workers by demeaning or sexual terms part of the whole "Mad Men" culture of the mid century? Back then men with the best jobs liked to play cock-of-the-walk at work, which must have been pretty damn hard to deal with.
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Oh, yeah. I don't go back THAT far for working environments, but I saw it in the 70's and 80s. The power dynamic was such that male bosses could say that to female underlings and MALE underlings couldn't do anything about it(this continued on as a corollary to "Me Too" harrassment.)
But I'd say its gotten a lot better, a lot more respectful and I simply don't see this anymore between men and women in my workplaces. On the other hand, I HAVE seen perfectly respectful men and women working together eventually reveal themselves as a romantic couple. They got that done in private. Heh.
Wow, you must not be too far off my age! I'm in my early sixties, and entered the work force forty-odd years ago, but not at a level where I was anywhere near those cock-of-the-walk types. With a bit of luck you don't see that sort of thing in the kind of dead-end jobs I had when I was young, it was only around the late 1990s that things changed up and I was around the sort of people who brought unrestrained egos to the workplace.
By then the message had been received that flirting on the job was considered sexual harassment and was bad for a person's career prospects, and none of the women were out to marry these guys, so things were more subtle than they were on "Mad Men". Like the guy who'd only exchange polite "good morning" chatter with th youngest, best-looking women who worked there.
none of the women were out to marry these guys, so things were more subtle than they were on "Mad Men". Like the guy who'd only exchange polite "good morning" chatter with th youngest, best-looking women who worked there.
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A couple of points. When Mad Men premiered in 2007, its first episodes were set in 1960, and we got the "newbie secretary" Peggy Olsen(Elizabeth Moss) under rather constant sexual harrassment by a bunch of "frat guy" young advertising men. I mean, these guys never stopped. I personally felt it was overdone. I have no background on 1960 workplace for real, but it just seemed too much...like showrunner Matt Weiner BELIEVED that sexual harrassment was this overt.
However, in the first episode, Peggy as Don Draper's new secretary did make a romantic gesture to him -- she put her hand on his in a sexually inviting way -- and he firmly refused her. The message here seems to be: young secretaries went on the make for men in the office as much as men went for women. Hey, maybe.
This IS true and MeToo rather besmirched it: once you get out of high school or college and into the workplace as a single person, the workplace is where you ARE going to find possible lovers and spouses. Its only natural, it happens a lot(in my experience, including my own) and then somebody usually has to switch jobs if the couple is going to last. Complicated.
One more thing about Mad Men being "wrong" about the 60s: they had a scene where Betty Draper didn't notice or care that her kids were wearing dry cleaner bags on their heads and faces. Didn't she know they could SUFFOCATE! It was meant to be a dark joke about Betty being clueless but hey...I WAS a kid in the 60's and my mother was ALL OVER us not to put those bags on our heads, we could suffocate.
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In other words, "a fictional guess"(Weiner assuming that mother Betty Draper wouldn't notice her kids wearing lethal bags on their heads) versus "reality" (I was told NOT to wear such bags on my head.)
This MIGHT translate to sexual harrassment 1960 workplaces , too. Fictional(TV show on the workplace) versus reality(REAL workplaces.)
Maybe -- in SOME businesses -- even in 1960 women were treated with the requisite respect by men. I mean there is a history of many women "even back then" making it in the business world.
I know this: modernly and for a long time now, I am nothing but professional with women in the offices in which I work. I no longer even say "that's a nice dress" or "your hair looks good." And I figure some women would LIKE that compliment but...no can do.
BTW, Otter, I expect I am near your age, a bit older, but I have come to the very nice feeling now that the later years are here that one can stay pretty damn "young in the mind" even as the body starts to fail. As Clint Eastwood says, "the key is to keep the old man out," and I just don't feel old.
In the mind. Physically, uh, some things have needed to be dealt with. And will. But the mind remains fertile.
I was a kid in the 1960s, and we had a song about suffocation by bag - "First you take a plastic bag, then you put it on your head. Go to bed, wake up dead, oooohhhhhh..."! So yes, the dangers of plastic bags were known by every school child in my area.
Anyway, nice to meet a fellow oldster, but one thing"
"the workplace is where you ARE going to find possible lovers and spouses"
I've always remembered the old saying "Don't shit where you eat", and after seeing a few nasty workplace breakups I've stuck to that. Even when I was young people were aware that workplace relationships could become a huge problem, but then, that was after the time when women in the workplace were assumed to be there in search of a husband.
Well I agree on the workplace danger of shitting where you are eating.
I'd say it is only truly successful when one of the partners voluntarily elects to move to a new job. Which is a pretty big sacrifice unless one or both are in "entry level" positions and moving on is not a big problem.
Speaking of "Mad Men," after Don's first wife Betty divorces him and he's living on his own, he sequentially:
ONE: Has a one night stand with his secretary who MUST quit her job in the aftermath.
TWO: Has a one night stand with his NEXT secretary, who is of "better stock" and hence becomes his second wife AND his co-worker in the office -- he promotes her to ad job. But she REALLY wants to be an actress in commercials -- and then Hollywood. All SORTS of trouble ensues.
THREE: Is given a real old battleax secretary after the first two end up as his bedmates.
So THAT show got it.
But still: boys and girls together under one roof on a daily basis...romances do occur.
When women were assumed to be ready to leave the workforce as soon as they found a husband, that shit about finding another job made a bit of sense, even if it was totally unfair and one-sided. After all, she'd failed to find a husband at that job, why would she want to stay at a place that had failed to provide her with a husband? Which was a horribly limited view at the time, and fortunately it seems to have all gone away some times around the 1970s.
But of course people still shit where they eat, and it leads to situations like the one at my last job, where two exes who hated each other in spite of their growing child still worked at the same place, because damned if either was going to give up the excellent jobs they both held. They didn't have to work together directly, they avoided interacting, which didn't stop the office busybodies from constantly gossiping about them both.
So if anyone but Roger is reading this remember: Don't shit where you eat!
When women were assumed to be ready to leave the workforce as soon as they found a husband, that shit about finding another job made a bit of sense, even if it was totally unfair and one-sided. After all, she'd failed to find a husband at that job, why would she want to stay at a place that had failed to provide her with a husband? Which was a horribly limited view at the time, and fortunately it seems to have all gone away some times around the 1970s.
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Well, I'll take that point, but in my experience with some of the couples at the workplace I knew, the MAN left for other work. It really depended upon mobility.
I think in certain government jobs(police?) if couples are formed, the rules REQUIRE someone to quit. Its a tough situation, really.
But honestly, and again, from my own experience. Lots and lots of men and women work together and its professional and usually these men and women have spouses "outside" and contrary to all the "affair movies" and such...its cool. Husbands and wives are OUTSIDE the company, co-workers are off limits to married workers. Until they aren't. The real world.
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But of course people still shit where they eat, and it leads to situations like the one at my last job, where two exes who hated each other in spite of their growing child still worked at the same place, because damned if either was going to give up the excellent jobs they both held. They didn't have to work together directly, they avoided interacting, which didn't stop the office busybodies from constantly gossiping about them both.
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Well, that's when the shit/eat issue becomes real hard. Because...you just have to live with it when you break up. Can we?
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So if anyone but Roger is reading this remember: Don't shit where you eat!
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And Roger also notes this: one other route (so famous in the press) to coupledom is : internships. People coming through temporarily, so they can be pursued when they leave.
Nothing's easy about love.
No, nothing is ever easy about love, which is both why I haven't married and why I'm okay with not being married. Finding someone is difficult, keeping someone is difficult, making it really work over a lifetime is rare. So well done you, and I'm not so bad either!
All the young people who expect it to be easy know nothing.
Heh...one benefit of the years, I suppose.
But of course, when its going well, nothing beats it....