?
That's what I felt when I watched Katie doing all the chasing and pursuing.
Well, Hubbell's looks and "all American" life put him in the position of pretty much having any girl he wanted. Katie had to run after him and get in his face to even attract his attention.
shareyep, that pretty much sums it up.
WHen you take away all the political drama and whatever issues they want to make out of it relating to the failure of their marriage...it really all boils down to Hubble not being that into Katie.
Katie did all the changing and adjustments to "win" Hubble. The only thing Hubble did for the marriage was to be more "tolerant" of Katie's abrasive personality. But even that was made easy for him 'coz Katie was doing all the personality mellowing. When it came for Hubble's turn to get out of his comfort zone (leaving Hollywood to write the novel in France), he wouldn't budge.
Yep, Katie loved him more than he loved her.
Hubbell was, for a time, most definitely "into Katie." In the 1947 scene in which J.J. and Hubbell were on the sailboat naming their favorite year, Hubbell named 1944, then 1945, then 1946 - all of them years in which Katie played a major part in his life. The film made it clear why Katie would appeal to Hubbell, given how passionate she was about his talent (it's been pointed out before, but the other women in his life looked like they'd been sprayed with gray mist). I'm sure Hubbell didn't believe he would reach his full potential as a writer without Katie.
However, I think the two of them defined Hubbell's "full potential" in different ways. Katie thought it meant moving to France to write a great novel, but Hubbell never shared that view; by 1947, it appeared he already felt his talent had taken him as far as he would go - or perhaps, as far as he wanted to go.
And this is something that Katie ultimately recognized. In the original script, the reason for their split (before director Sydney Pollack made his cuts) was because Hubbell wanted to continue working in the film industry but couldn't because his wife had been identified as a Communist. In order to stay married, Katie would have been forced to name names - something she would have never done. So she agreed to end the marriage; all she wanted was for Hubbell to stay with her until the baby was born.
Oh wow - thanks for the extra insight. That's answered a question for me that has bugged me for years. This is my favourite movie EVER and the only part I didn't like is that there seemed to be no good reason for them to split. Contrary to what the OP says, Hubbell very obviously DID love Katie. My take on it up to this point has always been that he couldn't live up to her expectations...or rather, he didnt want to have to keep trying. Unlike almost everything else in his life, Katie wasn't easy.
Any idea where I could find the script? PM would be fine if you have a link.
"I was never good at 'should'...and don't intend to train myself, either"
I'm not sure if the screenplay was ever published, but the novel by Arthur Laurents (also entitled The Way We Were) is still available through Amazon.com, and it reflects the the storyline that appeared in Laurents' original script.
The most recent DVD release of The Way We Were includes a documentary on the making of the film, and all the deleted scenes (many of which clarify Hubbell & Katie's break up) are part of the documentary. I can understand why some of the scenes were cut, but I think it was a mistake to to remove the one where Hubbell informs Katie that her old comrade Frankie McVeigh has appeared before the HUAC Committee and named her as a communist. This is when Katie realizes she's faced with nothing but terrible options -
1) Stay with Hubbell and cooperate with the Committee,
2) Defy the Committee, which would place Hubbell on the blacklist and destroy his career, or
3) End the marriage
Naturally she chooses the third option, which will at least allow her to live with her conscience (and not destroy someone else's livelihood). But it also costs her what is arguably the most meaningful relationship in her life; this is the "ultimate sacrifice" that she makes for Hubbell.
if Hubbell really loved Katie, he wouldn't even subject her to considering those options.
He would change careers, pronto!
A man who values his career more than his wife obviously doesn't love his wife as much as he loves his job. It's that simple.
Hubbell could still be a writer, just not for Hollywood. If he truly loved Katie as much as she loved him, that choice wouldn't have been so difficult. His situation was not that desperate. So it truly leads me to believe that Hubbell just didn't love Katie as much as she loved him.
Hubbell could still be a writer, just not for Hollywood.
HUBBELL: You never give up, do you?
KATIE: Only when I'm absolutely forced to. But I'm a good loser.
HUBBELL: Better than I am.
I knew all about that backstory of the scene that was deleted. But even with that deleted scene, it still comes off as Hubbel still valuing his need to be a Hollywood writer more than wanting to be with Katie.
I'm sorry, in real life, a truly principled man who truly loves his wife wouldn't sacrifice his marriage for a job.
The choice didn't have to rest on Katie alone. Hubbel, if he REALLY wanted Katie with him, could have left the Hollywood career. Other people make great sacrifices out of love for family. It's not a revolutionary move. Just something done out of love.
Hubbel was weak. And simply incapable of loving Katie deeply. I think he just wasn't the sort to really love passionately. It's consistent with the other aspects of his life. He loved Katie in his own way, but it's not the type of great love where Katie is number one in his life and he will stick with her no matter what. With Katie, Hubbel was ALWAYS number one in her life. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. The whole time in their relationship, it was truly Katie putting all the effort to make it work. WHen she gave up, it broke down. She was the one holding it up because she wanted it MORE than he did.
No one is denying that Hubbell was weak, and no one ever said Hubbell's feelings for Katie could be described as "the type of great love where Katie is number one in his life and he will stick with her no matter what." But you're missing the point when you say "If Hubbell really loved Katie, he wouldn't even subject her to considering those options." What Arthur Laurents wanted to establish with Katie was that she was the type of person who would never put herself in a position where she would destroy someone's livelihood - she wouldn't do it to someone she knew casually, and she certainly wouldn't do it to Hubbell. Even if he had said, "Screw Hollywood; I'll sell sporting equipment," she wouldn't have allowed it. She knew what Hubbell really wanted to do with his life, and she wasn't going to stand in his way.
And you have to admit that you made Hubbell sound incredibly passive with descriptions like "it really all boils down to Hubble not being that into Katie" and "Katie did all the changing and adjustments to win Hubble" and "the only thing Hubble did for the marriage was to be more tolerant of Katie's abrasive personality." Words like this make Hubbell sound like a disinterested bystander, which he most definitely was not. The fact is, he clearly loved Katie and was most definitely "into" her; otherwise he wouldn't have married her. And it was also clear he admired her commitment and her passion. However, she had her problem areas - she was relentless, exhausting, and given to "tantrums" (as she called them).
HUBBELL: You think you're easy? Compared to what, the Hundred Years' War?
KATIE: Hubbell, people are their principles.
Hubbel IS passive when it comes to Katie.
Do you think if Katie didn't pursue him relentlessly he would have ever married her? If Katie didn't adjust, do you think Hubbel would have tolerated her that long? Hubbel NEVER goes out of his comfort zone. It's katie who keeps doing it. She does all the begging and badgering. Hubbel merely reacts.
When their relationship is challenged by the Witchunt...I think it's safe to say that it's Hubbel who can do the most to save their relationship. And what does he do? He just makes it clear that he wants to keep his job leaving Katie not much of any choice.
Which is again, why I agree with the OP. No one is saying that Hubbel didn't care at all about Katie. But merely that the depth of his love is not much compared to how Katie feels about him. Love is as love does, isn't that the saying? And I'm sorry, but Hubbel doesn't do much. And when the ball was in his court, he totally dropped it.
The idea of "what you value/love more" is an idea explored in the movie. Didn't Katie's friend in hollywood ask her a similar question in one scene with Katie ultimately answering that she loved Hubbel more that's why she was still in hollywood? And as you have already said, Katie chose to end the marriage out of love for Hubbel since she didn't want to put him in a difficult situation. Again! It's Katie displaying concrete actions that express her love for the man.
Do you think if Katie didn't pursue him relentlessly he would have ever married her?
HUBBELL: No, don't change. You're your own girl, you have your own style.
HUBBELL: Do you think if I come back it's going to be OK by magic? What's going to change? What's going to be different? We'll both be wrong; we'll both lose.
KATIE: Couldn't we both win?
Huh? Since when did disagreeing to someone's post meant "jumping" on them? In any case, if I caused offense, then I apologize.
Anyway, back to the discussion...
Hubbel might have come back to Katie after that incident in Beekman Place, but look at what Katie did to get him back. She made that tearful phone call about him being her only best friend. *shudders*. This woman literally has no pride when it comes to Hubbel. And while he might have proposed marriage to her, their life afterwards was pretty clear to be heavily inclined to support Hubbel's career. Katie obviously hated the Hollywood scene but adjusted for Hubbel's sake.
Arthur Lament can keep his POV that it's "wrong" to keep people from pursuing professions because of a relationship. But that's HIS opinion on relationships. The truth is, for some people, their jobs or careers don't define them. Their relationships with their spouses and the life they build together is what's more important. People actually change religions/ faiths just so they can marry someone they love. It all boils down to what's more important to them.
Which is why it's not surprising that even for those who saw the "deleted" scene, Hubbel and Katie's break-up still comes across as Hubbel loving his job more than he did Katie. If Hubbel had willingly and wholeheartedly gone to France and written that novel, I'm sure Katie would still be married to him.
Didn't Redford initially refused to take this role? He complained that it didn't require much from him but to stand around and look handsome. Even he saw the passivity that is inherent in Hubbel's character. That deleted scene was suppose to add substance to his character, but IMO, it doesn't add much. He still had options to save that marriage if he really wanted to, but he doesn't take them. Katie magnanimously offering divorce to save his career shows her love for him, but it does nothing to prove how much he cares for her. Which is probably why test audiences gave the movie a negative rating when that version of the film was shown. It actually makes Hubbel (on top of sleeping with Carol Ann) appear more selfish and shallow and Katie look more noble.
Huh? Since when did disagreeing to someone's post meant "jumping" on them? In any case, if I caused offense, then I apologize.
While you can cite the screenplay as canon and a definitive display of the author's intention , it is possible that the characters were played out (even with the deleted scene) in such a way that the intention wasn't made clear. Intention and execution are two different things. Even if that was Lament's intention, the scenes that dealt with Hubbel and Katie weren't enough to convince me of his point (and there are other user reviews of this movie who've also seen the deleted scene also share this view). All I can see from scenes with Katie and Hubbel is that she repeatedly has to convince Hubbel that they can have a relationship. You can see from the start that it's Katie who wants their relationship badly, and not Hubbel. Hubbel is never really shown to want their relationship as bad as Katie does.
You can't expect viewers to simply accept that Hubbel loves Katie deeply just because the writer says it so. Viewers have to judge his character based on how the writer lets his character display that love. And I'm sorry, but the depiction of Hubbel in his screenplay really comes up short. With or without the deleted scene.
We're talking about two different things. You keep referring to the cut made by Sydney Pollack, and you're making assumptions based on that cut. I'm talking about the script that was written by Arthur Laurents, which was the same script that both Streisand and Redford agreed to film. And it's the same script that was distorted by Pollack's cuts.
While you can cite the screenplay as canon and a definitive display of the author's intention, it is possible that the characters were played out (even with the deleted scene) in such a way that the intention wasn't made clear.
if the point of Hubbel deeply in love with Katie is so clear to the audience, then why is it that this board has users tagging Hubbels character with the words, "jerk" and "got on my nerves" and why do we even have this thread to begin with?
Oh and I never questioned that Hubbel and Katie loved each other. I already mentioned that Hubbel also loved and cared for Katie, just not in the same way she did him. The point I was trying to make was that Katie loved Hubbel more than he did her. Which is also possible in any relationship and also the point of this thread.
The other point I'm making is even if with that scene of Redford saying, "the trouble is we do"...it still comes off as a lame declaration of his love given that it follows his infidelity to a pregnant Katie with Carol Ann. It's just not enough to convince an audience Hubbel cares as much for Katie as she does him. The things that his character does negates the intention of Lament. It's not just about the lines, it's also about what the character does.
if the point of Hubbel deeply in love with Katie is so clear to the audience, then why is it that this board has users tagging Hubbels character with the words, "jerk" and "got on my nerves" and why do we even have this thread to begin with?
[deleted]
"Which is again, why I agree with the OP. No one is saying that Hubbel didn't care at all about Katie. But merely that the depth of his love is not much compared to how Katie feels about him."
From the version of The Way We Were that I watched recently on YouTube, I’d have to agree with you.
Hubbell leaves Katie twice during their initial courtship, and returns only upon her insistence (and possibly because he finds her unreserved devotion flattering). If his love for her ever grew beyond their mutual companionship, it’s not really explained how or why; we simply see a medley of scenes of their sharing fun and friendship. They have apparently gotten beyond the challenges posed initially by any ideological or behavioral incompatibilities.
However, it seems that, ultimately, the glue that holds their relationship together is Katie's continued infatuation and devoted love; she makes the necessary sacrifices while Hubbell pursues his own lifestyle and career in a kind of ‘unwittingly self-centered’ manner, and with her willingly in tow. He may love her in his own way, or indeed love the way that she loves him, but the bottom line is that it’s eventually not enough for him to remain sexually faithful, or to stay with her, even for the sake of their child.
I’m guessing that Hubbell’s dalliance with Carol Ann partly reflects his frustration at being unable to experience the ‘magic’ that Katie feels about him. Unable to manufacture feelings that were never there, he is unfulfilled, and although perhaps torn to some degree, he ends up following the free-spirited desires of his heart.
I see the film’s major themes as being: (1) Katie’s responses to the heartache that she feels, as much of the story is essentially told from her point of view; (2) how there are different types of love, and the level of significance that they hold for each one of us; and (3) how we attempt to exercise choice, but are ultimately enslaved, at least to a certain degree, by the desires of our hearts.
Of course my impression is based on the characters as they are portrayed by Barbra and RR. The original script apparently provides reasons that are absent from the production version of the film.
What I took away from this movie was that Katie bamboozled Hubbell into marriage. She nagged and chased and cried and pleaded and begged until he felt so sorry for her, that he married her. Big mistake on his part. I did not like this movie at all, particularly the fact that it tried to make a heroine out of a Communist. The whole movie was just in poor taste.
shareI have so enjoyed reading all of the opinions on The Way We Were.
I believe that the mistake some people may be making is dealing with this subject as though they were a real life couple. They were two people in a story written by someone who was making a point. To disregard his message is counterintuitive. They are not a real couple, they are a made up couple out of the mind a man who used them to tell a story he wanted told.
Hubble loved Katie and Katie loved Hubble. However, I believe that Hubble admired Katie and on some level was jealous of her for values, believing in things so deeply and having the courage to stand up and act on her beliefs. He knew he wasn't as good as her on some level I think. His friend even says something like "... you'll never find another like her" after they split and he was so obviously a broken man himself.
The way the characters were written; as two very very different people that basically exhausted one another, and having to turn themselves into pretzels to be with the other, I'm not sure how they could have made it long term with the vast difference in values 'in the real world'. Its just too exhausting.
While Hubble's lack of confidence, ambition or courage. or the fact that he really didn't stand for anything, may be as true as Katie's lack of discretion, judgemental nature and difficult firebrand personality, if Laurent(?) said it was about the McCarthy era in Hollywood and the choices people had to make, the lives and marriages ruined, then that is what its about. There isn't really much room for speculation or personal conjecture, though is a fantastic discussion. Maybe as great as Redford and Streisand are they didn't communicate their onscreen relationship well enough, maybe it was Pollock's direction!
I find it interesting the Pollock purposely left out a very key clue to the end of their relationship and I wonder why. Its so obvious at the end that Hubble is broken seeing her, while in classic Katie fashion she's latched onto something else to fight for and about.
Anyways, that's my opinion.
I agree..
I watched it last night and the two of them are talking. Hubbell says something like why do you have to push...take things so seriously?
Katie responds by saying how can you not...not fight for what's right?
Hubbell did love Katie a great deal. She obsessed too much, like she did with everything she cared for. She pushed him too hard and he just couldn't deal with that..He loved her principles, strength and her quirky ways. He respected her.
With Katie, Hubbel was ALWAYS number one in her life.
Arthur Laurents, in his autobiography Original Story By..., states that Katie and Hubbell were two characters who loved each other "despite," not "because." They were incompatible people who managed to surmount the difficulties their disparate personalities created.
I so agree and from Hubble's point of view, I have to wonder if he didn't feel like a failure because he could never meet her expectations of who she THOUGHT he should/ could be, not seeing who he really was and that he had limitations, fears, lack of confidence etc. He was a settler anything that didn't come easily he couldn't bring himself to fight for it seemed.
shareA very good analysis! It's very true, but again this is where Pollack's cuts ruin the movie.
There is a deleted scene in which Hubbell is having trouble finishing a chapter. He gets fed up and pleads that they get out of the apartment after being "couped up" for 2 days. But, Katie won't budge and insists they stay in until he finishes the chapter.
Without some of the deleted scenes, it really seems like Katie is the one doing all the changing and adjusting. Hubbell didn't have to go as far as Katie, according to the deleted scenes, he was also trying to fit her expectations as well.
I agree with part of what you say, but from the beginning, Hubbel is intrigued by what Katie has to say.
He remembers her when they reconnect. This turns into respect and ultimately he falls in love with her.
I think it's the other way around. She's too into her idealism to ever compromise enough to make the marriage work.
Always the officiant, never the bride.http://www.withthiskissitheewed.com
IMHO, he liked her and admired her, but never loved her.
"The music is all that matters, nothing but the music!" The Red Shoes
I always thought he loved her so much it hurt him. Literally.
Katie loved her ideals more.
It's a good discussion starter for what love means to different people.
Katie's the kind of person who loves humanity in general, but no one in particular because she is unable to do what it takes to put the relationship first.
Always the officiant, never the bride. http://www.withthiskissitheewed.com
I don't agree. She bent over backwards trying to be the kind of girl she thought he wanted. It wasn't like he really compromised for her either. She'd have no problem compromising with a guy who really "got" her. If you have to change everything you are to make a relationship work, you're in big trouble.
"The music is all that matters, nothing but the music!" The Red Shoes
:)
Well, whatever the reasons, the cost was to lose themselves or stay together. They both tried to make it work after they reconciled the night she called him to sit with her so she could fall asleep. They loved each other, I think, genuinely.
He wasn't blameless, he knew better, but wanted it to work because he loved her. She was such an idealist she thought she could will it to work.
They both had limitations in how much they could give the relationship before losing themselves.
At least, that's my interpretation of how it went down. Sad nonetheless. Always makes me cry.
Always the officiant, never the bride. http://www.withthiskissitheewed.com
LOL. I cry at the drop of a hat, but not for this movie. I think it is great for BOTH of them when the finally break up. :)
"The music is all that matters, nothing but the music!" The Red Shoes
That's why it's so sad, because they had to let each other go in order to stay sane. But they never stopped loving.
One thing that really bothers me about the ending though, is that Hubbell never had any kind of relationship with his daughter. The scene in the hospital when she gives birth is the last time he saw his daughter. That was pretty callous I thought. It guess the filmmakers wanted to show how they still felt a great deal for one another even after the passing of so many years.
I think the filmmakers wrote a fatal flaw into his character for that.
Always the officiant, never the bride. http://www.withthiskissitheewed.com
IMHO, I think Hubbel did love Katie, just not the way she loved him. I think she was willing to do just about everything for him, but he wasn't willing to do the same.
In other words, at least for me, Hubbel was the love of Katie's life, but I don't think she was the love of his.
Yeah, you're probably right.
Always the officiant, never the bride. http://www.withthiskissitheewed.com
Love the use of the phrase 'just not that into her" for this movie. Works.
shareOne thing that really bothers me about the ending though, is that Hubbell never had any kind of relationship with his daughter. The scene in the hospital when she gives birth is the last time he saw his daughter. That was pretty callous I thought.
To some degree. But I lived in those decades, and mostly all of us with divorced parents in our social cluster had relationships with our natural fathers. It wasn't as equitable as it is today about custody, but we did have relationships with our dads.
I still think this aspect was a strange one in the film.
I mentioned that it was a school of thought and common, not that it was universal, and it should be borne in mind by anyone reading this that it was meant in the context of divorce's being much less mainstream than it is now. Just to cite "mostly all of us with divorced parents" would have been downright bizarre, akin to "mostly all of us with Martian heritage" or "royal blood," when I was a child in the '50s and '60s, at least in the very mainstream middle-class suburb where I grew up (it was mostly Italian). I didn't encounter any peers with divorced parents until I was 10 and although none of us treated her differently, it branded her in a way because divorce was exotic and associated with failure, something one read about movie stars doing. She saw her father but not often as he'd relocated nearly a thousand miles away (again, much more common under the circumstances than now).
I don't think it's strange at all, considering the times. I do think it's sad, though. We'll have to agree to disagree.
YES I agree ... things had to be her way because she felt superior in some way.
shareI know I'm a few yrs too late, but---Hubbell is not so much attracted to Katie as intrigued by her fascinating personality. You can see this in the very first scene, when she's making that speech on campus. When the camera focuses on Hubbell, you can see that he's definitely into her--intrigued by her, fascinated by her. He looks at her with a look that doesn't say "love at first sight," but that does say "intrigue at first sight." He doesn't look at his other girls that way; they are too empty. At the end, they separate because it's just too difficult making it work. with Katie. He's still definitely intrigued by her, but it's too much work. But he was definitely "into" her, I think.
Allen Roth
"I look up, I look down..."
I think Hubble eventually loved Katie, though she definitely fell for him first. He became this all-encompassing sort of crush for her. A combination of gorgeous good looks and what she thought to be a strong personality with depth to it. For me, it was one of those "plain girl gets gorgeous guy because she looks at him with adoration and brings out the best in him through her single-minded faith and confidence" situations.
It's just that at the end, Hubble was tired of trying to live up to what Katie thought he should be. He was quite content with where he landed in life, and he had no real ambition to make waves or be the next-great-novelist.
And Katie...I think Katie still loved him, despite his faults. She knew she couldn't be with him, and I think a small part of her felt sorry for him, but she never stopped loving him. However, I'm not so sure Hubble felt the same way. I think he was more relieved to see her gone than anything else. I think he loved her at one time. And I think he enjoyed the early years he had with her. However, he strikes me as a character who can quietly shelve emotions or associations without too much effort. Meeting her at the end brought up the love he once felt for her, but I just didn't get the impression that he thought of her at other times and that part of the reason he didn't accept her invitation was because he wanted to quickly "forget" her again and resume his life.
In my youth, I cried when they didn't get back together. I believed as you state that he couldn't measure up to her standards and she would never accept him. That's not a great love at all. But when I was younger I would have fought to the finish that they were star-crossed lovers, and love should have been enough. Today, I don't believe that. Katie never loved Hubbell, but who he could be. What she saw. Hubbell may have loved Katie for whom she was, but he required that she do the same. When she couldn't, it was over.
At there first break-up he knew their future, but she couldn't believe because she never gave herself credit that he wanted her. She took the easy way by attacking her looks, as many did, and still do. Then when she wasn't angry, she said the truth, that they were too different. But because they loved each other they would try again. That's not a bad plan, but as Hubbell said what will change. As we see, nothing changed. Their core values were competing, and there was no safe place for their hearts.
If we can save humanity, we become the caretakers of the world
Hubble loved Katie, but not enough to work at staying together. He was more concerned about his career as a screenwriter. I think in the final scene he realizes just how much he has lost. Katie is remarried and another man is raising his daughter. I always get tears in my eyes when she brushes his hair aside that last time.
share[deleted]