MovieChat Forums > Theatre of Blood (1973) Discussion > Compared to Phibes?

Compared to Phibes?

posted 11 years ago by Swift-12
18 replies | jump to latest

Is this better than the two Phibes movies? My wife and brother were disappointed by the 1st Dr Phibes movie, & I thought ToB might be superior to it. Diana Rigg alone would be a huge boost, compared to Phibes' lackluster assistant (They were also put off that the girl had no identity or motive to explain why she helped Phibes)
First the cast certainly looks better -- not that Phibes' cast was weak, but ToB staffs even the small roles with weighty names.
I don't remember ToB but were the deaths & the black humor better?
How would you rank the three movies?

[–] xenophonnelson 11 years ago

I recently watched the first Phibes movie after a long marathon of Vincent Price movies on TCM last month and I say Theatre of Blood is by far Price's best film. In the first Phibes movie the doctors seem undeserving of punishment as they were trying to save his wife, whereas the critics in Theatre of Blood are complete snobs. Diana Rigg has more personality than the mute girl from Phibes and Edward Lionheart has wonderful over the top monologues whereas Phibes can only talk through a stethoscope. The gore also boosts the menace of Lionheart and his cronies while also serving to make the humor much darker. A masterpiece of the horror genre.

[–] Swift-12 11 years ago

Thanks, I thought as much. I recently revisited Phibes too ... probably the same marathon you caught. If I've even seen ToB at all, it's been ages -- & maybe just a few scenes at that.

Don't recall much of the second Phibes either, but the original was a mixed bag when it came to the executions. The locusts were horrific but a pretty lame premise... I mean, what victim wouldn't wake up? Same thing with Terry-Thomas' death scene... He just sits there compliant.

Eh, maybe I should log these complaints on the Phibes page, but I would like to encourage comparisons and contrasts in the three movies.

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[–] Tresix 11 years ago

If I recall, I think they pumped knockout gas into the nurse's room during the locust scene in the Phibes movie. I like them both, but I prefer "Theatre of Blood" more. It actually seems to be within the realm of reality whereas "Abominable Dr. Phibes" was a little over the top. Also, like someone else said, the doctors and nurses in "…Phibes" have some sympathy coming to them as they were trying to save a life but simply couldn't while the critics from "Theatre…" (though they may have been right) could be perceived as kind of having it coming to them. The victims in the second Phibes kind of had it coming, but the movie seemed so dull.

"I'm in such bad shape, I'm wearing prescription underwear." Phyllis Diller 1917-2012

[–] Swift-12 11 years ago

Thanks. I missed the knock-out-gas detail. I recalled only two tubes: one with the gloppy green veggie mix that dribbled onto her head and would attract the locusts, and the second line with the locusts crawling through.

The only thing I remember about the second Phibes was that it was set at an ancient dig-site in Egypt, and that one victim was crushed by a mechanical sleeping-bag.

I agree that the THEATER OF BLOOD premise is much closer reality than PHIBES.

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[–] Tresix 11 years ago

There was supposed to have been a third Phibes movie that would have pitted him against Nazis. THAT would have been interesting!

"I'm in such bad shape, I'm wearing prescription underwear." Phyllis Diller 1917-2012

[–] Swift-12 11 years ago

There was supposed to have been a third Phibes movie that would have pitted him against Nazis. THAT would have been interesting!

Maybe that would have been a rare case of jumping the shark -- with the outcome an improvement!

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[–] mrannah 11 years ago

additional point, it is implied that the nurse took sleeping pills before going to sleep.

It is not entirely clear why Terry Thomas' character remained mute during his 'draining' though given the clime of the setting, and the fact that he had a film that could possibly gotten him arrested, he may have been conflicted in whether he wanted help. his silence does seem at the very least odd, if not outright foolish, but this is a phibes movie we're talking about

[–] ElectricWarlock 8 years ago

I actually thought this felt very similar to the first Doctor Phibes movie. It really reminded me of it a lot of the time. I liked the first Doctor Phibes much better than the second one myself. I'd place "The Abominable Dr. Phibes" first, "Theatre of Blood" a close second, and "Dr. Phibes Rises Again" in third.

[–] Swift-12 8 years ago

I agree that the first PHIBES movie is better of the two. And so I wrongly assumed THEATER OF BLOOD was made first, followed by the PHIBES movies -- thinking that the model started out strong and finished with the weakest. But -- I see now that ToB was the last of the three. So there was a stumble on the second, and then they nailed it strong with the last one.

Maybe it's noteworthy that the production companies are different. The PHIBES flicks were AIP (American International), but ToB was Harbour Productions and Cineman Films, and feels more British for it.

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[–] telegonus 8 years ago

I liked the first Phibes movie better than the sequel, have always managed to miss Theater Of Blood. Go figure. I remember the audience at the art house theater Dr. Phibes played in being full and wholly in tune with the movie's strangeness and humor. That was pretty much the end for Gothic horror as we came to know and love it as kids: after that it was The Exorcist here, a Texas Chainsaw there, the teen slasher flicks. At least the Gothics went out with maybe not a bang but with a certain sense of style, even dignity, panache. I wouldn't call that a whimper. Gothic is probably gone for good now, but we have a lot to be thankful for what we had. Speaking of which, I stayed up to a ridiculous hour to watch the Pigeons From Hell episode of Thriller the other night. It was worth it.

[–] Swift-12 8 years ago

Your description of the good reception for the first PHIBES movie jogged a memory: I recall quite a bit of media build-up for PHIBES (I think it was also pitched as a fitting vehicle for Vincent Price's 100th film). There was a lot of stuff on TV about PHIBES beyond the typical ad campaign.

You have an interesting insight how the basic nature of horror films shifted after PHIBES, veering away from Gothic. And even when Gothic window-dressing was retained, an onslaught of gore replaced the atmospheric buildup and suspense of the older movies.

Where do you find THRILLER available to watch???

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[–] telegonus 8 years ago

The movie was regarded as of sufficient importance in that amazing movie year of 1971 to warrant lengthy review by no less than Andrew Sarris in The Village Voice entitled, appropriately, given the film's pictorial qualities and emphasis on art direction, No, No, Van Nest!, a jokey title even this at the time nineteen year old got the in-joke of (even as IRL art director Van Nest Polglase was a longtime RKO employee, not a Universal one, but no matter). That the review's title was an obvious play on words on the Broadway musical No, No, Nanette! was one of its many charms.

Yes, that was pretty much the end of the Gothic cycle, but what a cycle! What an ending! It went back to the silent era but really began in earnest when talkies came in with the one/two punch of Universal's Dracula, then Frankenstein, after which Gothic horror was off to the races. Even the Production Code couldn't kill the genre, though it did put a damper on it. Besides, stylistically, the Gothic horror influence could still be seen in detective and mystery films, even in the A Thin Man series, many if not most of the Fox Charlie Chan entries from 1935-42; and then, of course, the sublime Universal Sherlock Holmes pictures of the war years.

That the Gothic proved malleable and Americanizable (sic) can be seen in the noir cycle of the 40s-50s period, from Stranger On the Third Floor and I Wake Up Screaming right through Orson Welles' Touch Of Evil. Welles was a great one for adding horror touches to his films anyway. The horror revival that began with the Hammer and William Castle series of the late 50s, a bandwagon Roger Corman jumped on with his Poe series with Vincent Price, brought horror, Gothic horror, back in a big way.

On television there was more than a touch of the Gothic on the One Step Beyond and Twilight Zone series, but the one real true Gothic horror show that had a decent run, Thriller, really brought classic era Gothic back, and, fittingly, in black and white. On broadcast TV it's been reduced to Sunday nights/ early Monday mornings at 4AM on the MeTV channel, and it's worth looking for or recording. Better still, it's worth buying the DVD. A fair number of the episodes are more crime and mystery than horror, especially early on. Thriller didn't find its "horror legs" till the middle of its first season. Even then, it was never 100% horror, but many of the crime episodes are creepy, retain the spooky ambiance even as there's no horror per se.

It is, btw. great to see you posting again, my friend  . Your absence as a regular here on the IMDB boards has been, for those of us who know you, a great loss.

[–] Swift-12 8 years ago

I just finished the 1926 silent The Magician starring Paul Wegener, and loved the sets of the tower/laboratory. Very beautiful, weird, atmospheric -- I wish the CGI gurus of today would look back at this heritage and ratchet things down a notch to capture the appeal of reality. (What a novel concept.) But no, our characters now inhabit a video game universe. Rex Ingram directed it, and I wonder if at the time of Frankenstein, comparisons were made to The Magician. Whale and his production company owe a tip of the hat to Ingram, but they also elevated the creepy laboratory set to a whole new level. Wegener's earlier German Expressionist The Golem (1920) must've also influenced Universal's Gothic sensibility.
I wonder what happened to Wegener? He was an imposing-looking figure, but I don't think he transitioned into the sound era. Need to look him up. He reminds me of Oscar Homolka -- maybe Oscar filled his niche later.)

EDIT: Btw, The Magician is based on a 1908 book by Somerset Maugham, and it is strongly influenced by Svengali, I'd say. I wonder if he was criticized for that, but I'd like to read both source materials to compare. (Recently watched Barrymore's version of SVENGALI and loved it. He and Marian Marsh were both great. Much better than the later British version starring Donald Wolfit.

I've heard of meTV but can't figure how it works. Do you subscribe to it like Netflix? Can you access it through cable or satellite -- or is it only available transmitted to an aerial? I've seen a few of the early episodes of THRILLER, but the only copy in our library is constantly checked out, and I just don't want to binge-watch it.

"Your presence as a regular here on the IMDB boards has been, for those of us who know you, a great loss." Welllll, thanks. I guess. It's funny how you word that: indeed, there probably ARE a number of people here who would regard a new post from me "a great loss". 😉 (I know what you mean. Thanks.)

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[–] telegonus 8 years ago

I meant absence!   This has been happening more and more with me lately. Incipient Alzheimer's? Aphasia? I meant, of course, absence,--as in that you're no longer a regular presence--and why I didn't phrase it that way is a mystery to me. Some of it is that I'm using a lap now, my only good pc, and the keyboard is smaller than most, and things do get mixed up, something intrinsic to the keyboard itself, which "automatically" moves a word here, a phrase there, around, sometimes to another paragraph! This makes what ought to be routine editing a major chore.

Anywhoo. I've never seen The Magician. From what I know of it the Somerset Maugham novel it was based on was in turn based on the "career" (if that's the word for it) and life of Aleister Crowley. My (briefly) good cyberpal, Gwynplaine MacIntyre, now long dead, was a huge admirer of Crowley, even wrote a novel about him (which I was never able to track down). According to him, Crowley (and his "circle") provided the basis for the "Palladists" in the Val Lewton The Seventh Victim as as the character of Karswell in Curse Of the Demon, to name just two. There are apparently many other "Crowley figures" in film and fiction. The last time I watched Bride Of Frankenstein when Ernest Thesiger's Dr. Praetorious first showed up the words "Aleister Crowley" popped into my head. Praetorious had that diabolical vibe as well as the air of the charlatan. He'd have made a wonderful Crowley in a film based on his life, though he'd have had to have shaved that resplendent head of hair.

Indeed, so far as I'm concerned CGI has damn near ruined movies. So much of the craftsmanship is gone, or has become obsolete. Who needs casts of thousands when they can be "filled in" later? Same with art direction and, especially, architectural design. Rebecca's Manderley may well have been a miniature when shown from afar, but it was a meticulously crafted one. Then there's "sequelitis" and remakes. Just about every classic film message board on the IMDB has threads started by whippersnappers  with the heading "time for a remake", or some such, the thinking (apparently) being that movies, like cars and refrigerators, need to be redesigned, upgraded every few years.

[–] Swift-12 8 years ago

... as usual we're wandering far afield from the main topic. Theater of ...? Theater of Blood?

Sounds like your keyboard has a case of "autocorrect". It's fun to read some of the worst examples of autocorrect -- some guy is texting is mom and a word gets changed so it sounds like he's asking to do something vulgar with him. But as embarrassed as the victims are ("DAMN YOU AUTOCORRECT!"), they still have to hope the person doesn't ask, "hmmmm, but why WAS that word in your autocorrect -- if You DON't USE it OFTEN?!"

Like Svengali, The Magician was a mesmerist who puts a young lady under his total hypnotic control.

And you were synchronistic with your comment out of the blue about REBECCA... Full-circle: Daphne DuMaurier's father was the author of SVENGALI

There's an interesting true story about one of Crowley's followers. An engineer/scientist/physicist with some brilliant ideas. The coven he was in probably had a lot of "open relations" if you catch my drift. And he died or went missing (in the 1930s?) -- all very mysterious without any resolution of the case. I never read the book about it, but wonder if it would make a great film.

Gwynplaine was quite a character. Wish I had got to know him, or at least whatever persona he'd deign to project. I did find an article about his fate -- weird story. Sounds like you could never tell what was real about his bio or not. (I wonder what his real name was). Many of his IMDB reviews are for films that are long lost. He'd write up detailed synopses and descriptions like he'd really seen them, which of course has caused a lot of confusion for people who stumble across these. I have one of his books, but haven't got around to reading it. It does look intriguing, a sci-fi fantasy about an invisible woman who gets tattooed so she can be seen.

You missed my question about meTV earlier. I'd like to use it but don't understand how to get it. (Available only through the Internet? Subscription, like Netflix or Hulu? Available only through aerial transmission?)

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[–] telegonus 8 years ago

...I'll try to get back on track. Not sure about Autocorrect. You're probably right.

Svengali is a film I've never seen in any form. I know the origins, have seen the John Barrymore follow-up, The Mad Genius, which sort of plays like a mad doctor film without a mad doctor. Barrymore was in his element in those roles.

I actually read a Crowley biography when I was friends with Fergus, as F.G. MacIntyre liked to be called by his friends, so for about six to eight months I qualified. Fergus had a way of "falling out" with people. If you said the wrong thing, ruffled his feathers, he could turn cold as ice. I tried to reconnect by answering some of his posts on message boards. No dice. We used to communicate via PM.

That's an interesting anecdote you related. Another Crowley connection: Rosemary's Baby. It's loose but it's there for anyone who knows of the time Crowley spent in New York, in the Village. They switched things around but basically Sidney Blackmer's Roman Castavets was like the diabolical reincarnation of Aleister Crowley.

Alas, I've never seen Theater Of Blood in its entirety but I think there was some basis, as with The Dresser, with British actor Sir Donald Wolfit (sp?), whom I believe played Svengali once, had a weird reputation. He also appeared made up to look like Bela Lugosi in the British horror Blood Of the Vampire (it may have other titles).

My time is limited, as I'm visiting the library as I write so I'll have to cut this short. I do hope you'll return to the boards, if only semi-regularly.

[–] Swift-12 8 years ago

Oh, there's nothing wrong with wandering off track. It's just fun/funny how things will go. Don't know about returning to the boards, but I do reply when I get an alert that someone's responding to an old thread. That's how this "return" happened.

I'd like to see more of Wolfit. Sounds like he was a brilliant actor but his big flaw was evidently a professional vanity (masking for insecurity I bet), and he always surrounded himself with lesser talents in his troupes. (I imagine THE DRESSER brings this out a lot.) But there were some big talents who were able to emerge from out of his shadow, like Peter O'Toole. Supposedly he and Gielgud detested each other, and avoided one another at all costs. They both appear in BECKET, but didn't have scenes together, so a blood-letting didn't occur. It's humorous that both O'Toole and Richard Burton agreed before filming to behave and stay sober for fear of disappointing their mentors (Burton followed Gielgud, and O'Toole Wolfit) -- but the real bad-boys on the set could have turned out to be the older gents.
Anyway, I wasn't as impressed with Woflit's SVENGALI compared to Barrymore, although much of that can be laid on the directorial choices and the differences in narrative treatment. Interestingly, Wolfit took the part at the last moment, when Robert Newton went AWOL and fled the production. (I never knew until hearing this anecdote that he was hopelessly alcoholic and died not much later.) If Wolfit hadn't turned up immediately as a replacement, the film would've been scrapped as a financial disaster. Newton's scenes had to be reshot, but supposedly he can be seen in a few long shots.

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[–] telegonus 8 years ago

To not wander off altogether: MeTV is a digital sub-station. In Boston it's channel 5's, hence it's 5.2 on the dial or whatever they call it now. This changes from city to city and if you go to Titan TV (my bible for such things) and enter your zip code, you can find it. If you're cable, it's probably a Comcast channel,--this confusing, I know--if not, like me, it's regular. You can adjust Titan to either Broadcast or cable. It's a bit confusing at first, and if you use a registry cleaner even semi-regularly it will erase your settings and you'll have to re-login,--O, the Internet!--but it's a useful tool as to what's up as to broadcast TV. I don't have cable anymore, haven't for years, don't really want it.

As to the DVD, I've heard good things about it, and the guys who did the commentary have a blog callled A Thriller A Day, which is great fun to read, and to which I've contributed under another name, which I'm sure if you go there you can easily "decipher" by my attitude . One of the best of the regulars,--it's a clubby place, sometimes too much for my liking--Gary Gerani, is a great guy. He's defended Pigeons From Hell from all "attackers" by defining its aesthetic as that of a "fever dream", as he calls it, as distinct from a drama, which is to say it plays by its own oneiric logic, shouldn't be judged by using reason, which destroys the dream-like effect which is its strongest point. A Thriller A Day is a part of a larger Blogger Dashboard. If you're a Google member you're half-way there, and if not, all you have to do is join. Some great stuff, includes blogs on Kraft Suspense Theater, the Hitchcock shows, various kind of science fiction films. The same crew did We Are Controlling Transmission,--an Outer Limits blog--which, like the other blog, covers every episode of a classic show, leaves places for visitors to comment and join the discussion.

To return to the distinguished Mr. Wolfit: his love of the stage limited his film work, which was his choice. His film career reminds me a little of Tod Slaughter's, by which I mean he was used for his weirdness. Slaughter was like that on stage. Wolfit, for all his quirks, apparently wasn't. Difficult, yes, but not literally bizarre. It's just as well they used Blackmer for the Crowley/Castavets character in Rosmeary's Baby. Wolfit would have thrown the film off-kilter. Another distinguished Brit, Maurice Evans, beautifully played Rosemary's one true ally, Hutch, but I can't see Wolfit in that role, either. Unambiguous virtue is a quality I cannot see him easily conveying. Interesting comparison with Robert Newton. They were really different types: the camera loved Newton, and he came off as larger than life on screen. There was a lovable, benign quality to him, even when playing Bill Sykes, Long John Silver or Blackbeard the Pirate, a quality Wolfit lacked.