Big problem with the fake FBI ending - The Sting (1973) Discussion

[–] jrs-8 11 years ago

How could the bunko cop explain to Lonnigan that it was all a con when he was being conned too? Lonnigan wanted his half million back as he was being dragged out but they had just (supposedly) witnessed two people being shot and killed. Lonnigan was rushed out because, with his reputation, there was no way he could be thought involved in that scenario. That is what the bunko cop was doing - getting Lonnigan as far away as quickly as possible. Lonnigan knew his money was gone.

No, of course they won't forget they were conned. The bunko cop likely couldn't do a thing about it. Lonnigan would have wanted revenge. My thought is....how would Lonnigan have known it was a con? Everyone in the room was in on it besides him and the bunko cop. As soon as the con ended they were all packing up and heading out. I am sure Gondorf and Hooker got as far away as possible and kept low profiles under new identities so there is a very good chance Lonnigan may have never even known he was conned. Lonnigan never made the connection that Hooker was the same guy who conned him out of his stash at the beginning of the movie so it's quite plausible they would have never been caught.

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[–] thievingstars 11 years ago

Sorry I re-read my post an can see how it is confusing. My point was only that I think with a small amount of homework the bunko cop could figure it out. I realize by then it's too late. But I think they would come after the con men once they figured it out. Or maybe not. Maybe since it is supposed to be hush hush since there was a murder they never would question it. That's how cons work. :)

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[–] jrs-8 11 years ago

Oh ok. Well I don't think there is any doubt those conned would want to come after the con men but I think the movie seems to suggest they are all high tailing it out of town that night after their shares are doled out. You can imagine Hooker and Gondorf went somewhere and changed their identities.

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[–] markfilipak 11 years ago

...I think with a small amount of homework the bunko cop could figure it out.

...ummm... I guess I'd better write: ***Caution! Spoilers ahead***

I'll go beyond that. I think that Snyder (the Joliet bunko cop) would figure it out, and would do so that evening or maybe earlier (like, as he's leading Lonnegan away). Remember, he knows that 'Kelly' is really Hooker, and he might even figure out that 'Shaw' is really Gondorff - Snyder is a bunko cop so he'd at least have heard of Gondorff.

Another thing. What would Snyder and Lonnegan think when tomorrow's Chicago newspaper says nothing about an FBI bust in South Chicago with 2 shooting deaths? Wouldn't Snyder be surprised that the paper says nothing about Johnny Hooker being killed? Also, though Snyder is from Joliet, wouldn't he 'check in' with the Chicago cops? The Chicago cops would know nothing about an off-track betting parlor at that location. And they'd very easily be able to figure out that the betting parlor was there for only a few days.

Why would Snyder & Lonnegan bother with that sort of an investigation? One reason: $500-thousand.

No, I don't think Hooker & Gondorff would get away with it.

The Sting is a wonderful movie, but, as with most movies, you have to suspend disbelief.

If you want a bunko film in which the mark really is convincingly duped try Confidence (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0310910/).

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[–] crood 11 years ago

There was nothing for Snyder to figure out. "Polk" told him they were breaking in on a con run by Henry Gondorff. Presumably Snyder never said anything because "Polk" actually did give him some of those "reward bucks" he mentioned. If Snyder ever figured anything out, he'd have to keep his mouth shut because he'd actually taken a split from the con. Lonnegan would want him just as dead. Also, keep in mind that Snyder was from Joliet, not Chicago, so he wouldn't necessarily hung around afterwards.

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[–] markfilipak 11 years ago

Presumably Snyder never said anything because "Polk" actually did give him some of those "reward bucks" he mentioned.

Hahahaha... You should have been a scriptwriter on The Sting. Sure, if we speculate that "Polk" cut Snyder in on the deal, then Snyder would keep his mouth shut, but maybe not. It's totally speculative. I could speculate that Hooker & Gondorff are safe because, when they got out of the alley, Snyder & Lonnegan were hit by an asteroid.

Regardless, it doesn't matter what Snyder does or doesn't do. Forget Snyder. What will Lonnegan think & do when tomorrow's newspaper says nothing about an FBI bust in South Chicago with 2 shooting deaths? How long do you think it'd be before he goes headhunting for 'Kelly' & 'Shaw'? And would he find them? Ummm... Yes. He's a mob boss and has $500-thousand worth of motivation.

Nope. Enjoyable though it may be, The Sting kinda falls apart at the end.

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[–] MyDarkStar 10 years ago

What will Lonnegan think & do when tomorrow's newspaper says nothing about an FBI bust in South Chicago with 2 shooting deaths? How long do you think it'd be before he goes headhunting for 'Kelly' & 'Shaw'? And would he find them?

The Sting II

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[–] markfilipak 10 years ago

The Sting II

ohmygod! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086370. I really didn't even know there had been a sequel. So the shooting ruse was just to get 'Kelly' & 'Shaw' out of there that day, not to permanently trick Lonnegan. That makes me feel better about the ending of The Sting. Thanks for that.

== EDIT ==
On second thought, it doesn't make me feel better about the ending of The Sting. A sting tricks the 'mark'. In a sting, the 'mark' never learns the truth. The movie makes that very clear. If Lonnegan figured the situation out, then The Sting failed and should be renamed The Theft.
_____
I don't have a dog. And furthermore, my dog doesn't bite. And furthermore, you provoked him.

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[–] phreschke 10 years ago

A sting tricks the 'mark'. In a sting, the 'mark' never learns the truth. The movie makes that very clear.

No, no, no. Not at all. Of course the mark learns the truth eventually! He has to, at some point, when he realizes his money's gone. In fact, the very first con we see in the movie ends with the mark opening an envelope that should contain sixteen grand to find it filled with a wad of paper - thus realizing he's been conned.

The mark eventually finds out in the end, always. The point is just making sure the grifters are long gone by the time he does.

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[–] rtw416 9 years ago

I think in the 1920's during prohibition,the world was a larger place.It was much easier to disappear,change identities.Snyder could've looked into whether the Feds were involved,but Gandolf could also of covered his bases that deep-meaning who ever Snyder called to check up on the Feds would of been involved also...So,I think it is doable.
Someone like Lonegan would always look at the big picture back then and easily walk away from 500k.Rather than take the chance and get caught up in s double murder.

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[–] gottaluvafriend 8 years ago

I see no reason why Snyder (bunko cop) or Lonnegan should be expected to know it was a con.

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[–] thievingstars 11 years ago

Also to answer your question: the bunko cop knew that the horse races were a con. He could have told Lonnigan that it was a con (and still not know that he was conned as well as far as the FBI part was concerned)

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[–] kausix777 11 years ago

The con job referred to by "FBI" to Snyder was not the race con.

My take is this: "FBI" makes Snyder think they're after Gandorf about a con job Gandorf was planning (a one time con job, not the ongoing race "business"). They also ask him to get Hooker as Hooker was the only one who could lead them to Gandorf (this was of course to prevent Snyder from taking Hooker to the real cops or to Lonnegan).

The raid on the race "business" was not actually a raid on the race "business". It was a raid to catch Gandorf (who was "underground").

So, in summary, Snyder did not know the horse races were a con. All he knew was he handed Hooker to "FBI", "FBI" got Hooker to lead them to Gandorf, "FBI" raided the place to arrest Gandorf, "FBI" let Hooker go, resulting in the shootout where both Gandorf and Hooker get killed, and possibly that whatever "con was being planned by Gandorf" would be scuttled now that he was dead.

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[–] J-Star 10 years ago

"Snyder did not know the horse races were a con."

Yes he did... ever since "Polk" brought him in the first time he is let to know that there is a sting happening. Snyder is willing to let everything play out because he knows that 1) he'll get rewarded for bringing down Gondorff 2) if Hooker gets to keep the money from the sting, he can do what he always does: muscle him for a big share of it.

Then out comes the guns and everything turns to "panic"... he just knows he needs to get Lonnegan out of there as fast as possible... the rest of the mess he expects to clear up later.

/J-Star

De gustibus non est disputandum

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[–] hurk130 11 years ago

I noticed that Gondorff told Lonnigan to leave his bodyguards at the door the first time he came down to the betting room. "This is a class joint.", I think he said. I believe he did this to control guns with blanks and guns that were real. He didn't want a shootout with the fake FBI and real gangsters. As far as Snyder goes, one thing about a con is that you get the person to fall for it with the personality type he is. Snyder wanted to be more than just a Bunko cop from Juliette. This way he played with the big boys from Washington and got to be a FED for a little bit. Ego stroke for sure. Even if Snyder knew the con was on, I don't think he had any idea that two would be dead and was told to get the legit "Banker" (Lonnigan) out of there which is what he did. You only have to keep up the con long enough to get out of town (or line of sight). Just my opinion. I have loved this movie since the first time I saw it. The director is skilled at letting us see just enough to think we know what is going on. Being conned over and over. I had no idea that the FBI was fake until the end which was what the director was trying to do. I still watch it to this day but in Blu-Ray, the colors and detail are really cool. A few inaccuracies here and there but not distracting at all. I have fun watching the movie which is the point....for me. Your mileage might vary.

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[–] J-Star 10 years ago

Of course Lonnegan will want to get his money back but what is he going to do? Try to explain to - what he thinks is - the FBI "I was trying to commit a crime by participating in illegal gambling with half a million dollars... can I have them back please?". Not gonna happen.

Snyder has no interest in explaining there was a con because he expects - when the con plays out successfully - to do what he always does: pressure Hooker to give him a big part of the share.

After the con gang shakes things up with the "shootings" he - still - doesn't want to let Lonnegan know "I knew you were going to get conned for half a million dollar... and then lose the money in an FBI raid... and I let it happen". He knows all about Doyle Lonnegan and what a dangerous man he is (that we hear already in the first shakedown when he pressures Hooker for $2 000), so Snyder is going to keep very tight-lipped about all that. If the gang is really clever they will not let Snyder know that the mark was actually Lonnegan - yeah, that Lonnegan - until after it has all played out.

/J-Star

De gustibus non est disputandum

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[–] colagada 10 years ago

This was referenced in the movie: "You have to keep this con even after you take his money."

Lonnigan knew that it was a con game when "Agent Combs" came in to make the bust, addressed Gondorf, and then told Hooker that he could leave.

The FBI element was the "blow-off"; this is how Lonnigan's con was kept afterwards; he knew that he'd been conned by Hooker and Gondorf, but he assumed that they were dead from the shootout, that the FBI busted everybody else, and then confiscated Lonnigan's money and all of the equipment. Since the FBI answered to nobody in those days and was unscrupulously honest, any inquiries to the FBI by Lonnigan, Snyder, or anybody else would have gone unanswered.

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[–] jwalsh67 10 years ago

And let's not forget that Lonnigan was led to believe that he bungled the bet himself and therefore "legitimately" lost his money.

The Sting II was a gross insult to the Lonnigan character brilliantly portrayed by the late Robert Shaw. Lonnigan does, in fact, figure out that he had been conned by Hooker and Gondorff and is even able to track them down. Does he kill them as would be expected? No...he tries to play a silly con on them, which, of course, backfires.

He who conquers himself is mightier than he who conquers a city.

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[–] Soujurn 9 years ago

Lonnigan would have informants in the government who would inform him that no real FBI operation was taking place. Even if it took years, Lonnigan would learn the truth. Gondorff and Hooker are dead men walking.

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."
-Dennis

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[–] Soujurn 9 years ago

Lonnigan would have informants in the government who would inform him that no real FBI operation was taking place. Even if it took years, Lonnigan would learn the truth. Gondorff and Hooker are dead men walking.

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."
-Dennis

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