If the FBI hadn't raided the betting parlor, how were Gondorff and co. going to get Lonnegan out of there and accept his defeat? He had to be dragged out kicking and screaming by Lt. Snyder as it was. Without the Feds' involvement, would Lonnegan have simply accepted his loss or wouldn't he have wanted some "justice," maybe call in his boys and mess up Gondorff and Kid Twist (who gave him the bad tip) if only out of spite?
shareWithout the fake Feds, Lonnegan had no choice but to accept his loss because he bet improperly. By the time he could round up his boys to return to the betting parlor, everything inside would be gone. So would all the men, especialy the ringleaders who would have skipped town.
shareYeah, but Lonnegan's first reaction was to grab the cashier by the lapels and yell, "There's been a mistake!" He was inconsolable. What was it going to take to calm him down and make him accept the loss? Obviously, Gondorff's play was to come by after the race and rub Lonnegan's nose some more. I'm not so sure Lonnegan was just going to walk out of there. I think he would've taken it out on someone. Maybe Kid Twist, maybe Hooker.
My point being, I think the "Feds" were an essential ingredient to the con, whether they conned Lt. Snyder or not. I think con men often used the "police" to close the deal on a confidence job.
True, we did not know what the original "plan" was before Lt. Snyder entered the picture and threatened to undermine the con. Perhaps the fake Feds would have busted in anyway, without Lt. Snyder, to raid the betting parlor and even shoot Gondorff after he pulled out his gun. The shooting of Hooker may have been what Gondorff meant when he told Hooker, "....now we have to do something about it", referring to Lt. Snyder after he nearly arrested Hooker.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with your closing remark.
Of course, there's still the little problem of if the Feds raid the place, somebody's still got to get Lonnegan out of there. You can't let him stick around and NOT arrest him. Maybe Joe Erie would've pulled him out. I'm not sure. Still, because this is a representation of an actual con, we should assume it was logically worked out.
share....You realize the feds were fake, right? Part of the plan from the very beginning?
TDK hammered them to desperation in their desperation they turned to a movie they dont understand.
Yes we do. While the feds were part of the original con, coonning Lt. Snyder was not part of the con so Gondorff had to improvise in order to get him out of the way.
shareThe fake Feds were more than likely part of the original scam. So was the "death" of Gondorff and Hooker. With them dead, at least so far as Lonnegan knew, who was he gonna go back at?
And by conning Snyder and getting the local law involved, it made the fake Feds seem that much more real.
Lastly, Lonnegan had taken the money from somewhere else, and it was now gone. He's got more serious problems to worry about than getting even with a pair of grifters.
-"BB"-
Even with the "Feds" busting into the parlor and Gondorff and Hooker shooting each other, somebody still has to pull Lonnegan out of there. If Snyder had not been incorporated into the plot, Gondorff would've had to get somebody from within the scam to get Lonnegan out. Remember, at no put does he initiate his own departure. Like I wrote in a previous post, the most likely guy would've been Joe Erie.
shareI dunno. Joe Erie was the younger guy with the busted nose; the one he got from Snyder in Boudreau's place, right?
I think it would be been Kid Twist to try to drag him out of there. Remember, Lonnegan had been working with him (Twist was the voice on the phone) on the scam; Twist was the one who told him about the 'wrong' bet; and he was there in the wire shop at Lonnegan's elbow already.
-"BB"-
I agree with you. Twist was the one who was sitting with Lonnegan at the betting parlor through part of the race. Twist was the one who would have a strong motive to get out of there if/when the feds raided the place - he was a Western Union officer (to Lonnegan) and would probably get into some trouble if he were "caught" in a betting parlor he was releasing betting results to.
shareI like the debate..! I've read, while researching this 'con' stuff, that to make these confidence games work, you HAD to get the 'Mark' to participate in something illegal or extremely shady. A darkly funny example of this is the hapless 'Mattola', the numbers runner. He steals Luther's money, after promising to make a 'drop' for him. - Can he go to the police and lay a complaint that he was conned?
So, Lonnegan, for all he knew, was also participating in a highly illegal act: wire fraud!! and we have learned that he was trying to build a 'respectable image.' Hence, once the FBI team raided at the end, with or without Snider in the equation, and once Lonnegan got over his anger about the lost cash, he would have been forced to beat a hasty retreat one way or another. And he couldn't really go to the Police to lay a complaint, could he? lol - He would assume that the cash on hand at Shaw's betting parlor would be confiscated by the Feds.
All in all, while we can speculate that Lonnegan would eventually get word that he had been conned, I think the plot ties up very nicely. To those who think these 'cons' don't happen in real life, consider Mr. Madoff, his 40 billion $ scam, and his 150-year sentence! (Madoff, by the way, hopes to get this sentence cut in half (--: )
:-) canuckteach (--:
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I like the debate..! I've read, while researching this 'con' stuff, that to make these confidence games work, you HAD to get the 'Mark' to participate in something illegal or extremely shady. A darkly funny example of this is the hapless 'Mattola', the numbers runner. He steals Luther's money, after promising to make a 'drop' for him. - Can he go to the police and lay a complaint that he was conned?The theme that you can't con an honest man is a constant throughout the story leading to my favorite quote from the film:
Good point. In fact, Lonnegan is pulled out of the den by Snyder; somebody he doesn't know at all.
shareThis is a good thread. The "feds" punctuated the con nicely by arriving when Lonnegan realized that he had made a betting error. I agree that they were a part of the con regardless of Snyder's beef with Hooker. If Snyder had not been after Hooker, the team probably would have had some other man disguised as one of the local Joliet authorities to usher Lonnegan out. My question is, why was Lonnegan allowed to leave? Sure, the feds told Snyder that Lonnegan was some "bigtime wheel" in NY and they didn't want him around when the press showed up. But in Lonnegan's mind, there was no reason for him to be allowed to go free. Did Lonnegan realize at that point that he had been conned but didn't want to go after his money because the feds (and a couple of dead guys) were on the scene?
This is the way I see Lonnegan thinking:
Twist tells him he screwed the bet up. Lonnegan thinks, "Oh, S**T, I messed up, I need to get my money back!".
The feds arrive (and call Shaw "Henry"). Lonnegan thinks, "They must be here because they got wise to the past-posting operation!".
Hooker and Gondorff end up "dead and bloody". Lonnegan is, for some reason, taken outside to go free (while nobody else is allowed to leave). Lonnegan thinks, "They must have been after me all along. They intentionally made me screw up the bet. If I had put the money on Lucky Dan to "place", Twist would have told me, 'no, you were supposed to PLACE it on him TO WIN!'. I'll get even with those two sons of...oh, wait, they're already dead. And the rest of the con gang are being arrested by the FBI. I'm free as a bird to skip and sing and do cartwheels down the street. That's worth half a million bucks!"
I welcome any second opinions to this!
He who conquers himself is mightier than he who conquers a city.
I like your thinking here, particularly that Lonnegan realizes the FBI got wise to the past-posting operation and he's lucky to get away. The only problem is Lonnegan was so angry he has to be dragged out of the betting parlor ("But my money's in there!"). He's irrational enough to want to go back into the parlor even though it's an established "crime scene." I think Snyder's motive for taking Lonnegan out is that the "FBI" told him, "There might be some reward bucks in it for you." But Lonnegan's such a tough nut all he knows is he wants his money back.
You pose another interesting question. What if Lonnegan had taken Twist's tip literally and "placed" his bet on Lucky Dan? Obviously, he had been set up by the two previous races to pick winners, but it's in the realm of possibility that Lonnegan could've realized his horse would run second, thus ruining the entire con.
I think the idea was to make Lonnegan believe he made a betting error no matter what. If Twist really wanted the money bet on Lucky Dan to place rather than win, he would have said, "BET it on Lucky Dan to PLACE...". It was left intentionally ambiguous so that Lonnegan would "screw up" the bet--and thus not think that he was entitled to his enormous cut of the winnings.
My initial question still stands, however. Let's suppose that Snyder was not involved at all, and they had to remove Lonnegan at the end. Would Lonnegan not find it a bit suspicious that he was being allowed to walk despite being a part of the illegal past-posting operation?
He who conquers himself is mightier than he who conquers a city.
I thought about your first point, too, but the sting relied on the fact that Lonnegan was betting the outcome of real races; so Lucky Dan DID finish second. Now, they could've lied to Lonnegan and said the horse finished first or third, then the con men could've split the money then split the scene. But when Lonnegan finds out he lost his money on a race he really won the grifters run the risk of Lonnegan figuring out he's been conned (the way it is now, he just thinks he lost a bet), which may make him vengeful enough to go all-out to find the con men.
The other point you raise is why did the "Feds" allow Lonnegan to go free. I think the point here is that they were so rapt up in the fact that there are two "dead" men in the room they're too distracted to notice somebody leaving. I mean, the con men are not set up to create a real crime scene with ambulances and police cars. They have to rely on the chaos of the immediate situation allowing the mark to think he is escaping unnoticed. In fact, there lies the problem. Lonnegan doesn't want to leave, he wants to stick around and get his money back. The way the con is set up, the mark is supposed to be so frightened over what transpired and his own discovery that he doesn't need any assistance in getting the hell out of the den of thieves he's in. Lonnegan behaves just the opposite way.
I think you got me on that first point! Yes, I recall that they were basing their bets on real races, so it would stand to reason that Lonnegan would eventually check to see the results of that particular race. I now believe that the con team took advantage of Lonnegan's ignorance of the wire, so they knew that when they said "place it on Lucky Dan", Lonnegan would invariably place it on him to win. Then afterwards, when Lonnegan checked the race results, he would not feel conned.
He who conquers himself is mightier than he who conquers a city.
Y'know, "Walshy," I've got a problem with this "wire" con. I know it probably worked like a charm in real life. But suppose when Lonnegan got the call from Twist he had the clarity of mind to ask for clarification: "Hold on there, Twist, you said to 'place' it on Lucky Dan. Do you mean put it on his nose to win or place it on him to show?" The con would've gone out the window at that point and they would've had to "shut out" Lonnegan again just to get out of the situation. I know this is unlikely as Lonnegan is so greedy and can't get the idea of revenge out of his head.
Actually, I guess the con men know the psychology of their marks so well that they know a man like Lonnegan would never be thinking that clearly.
I think Twist hung up the phone as soon as he told him to "place it on Lucky Dan...." so Lonnegan could not ask him that key question. We saw Lonnegan hesitate for a few seconds before leaving the phone booth, presumably pondering that very issue.
Lonnegan was unable to recover his money because of the (faked) killings and his quick exit to avoid supposed exposure of his gambling. Those fake killings took place before the "race" had actually finished so Lonnegan would not have known if he had won no matter how he bet (until much later, when it would be too late even if he had won).
I agree with what you said about Lonnegan's greed, as greed is the means by which con men of any type con their marks.
You're absolutely right about the phone call (there's no time for Lonnegan to question Twist). If fact, the essence of the con is in keeping Lonnegan off balance. When he goes to the Western Union office, for example, the con men can't allow Lonnegan inside ostensibly because Twist might get caught by a supervisor, but in reality a real Western Union employee might enter the office and ruin the charade. Still, I think even if Gondorff and co. had the time to make their own wire office, they would not have allowed Lonnegan access as it would give him too much time to to poke holes in the flimsy set-up.
Something else which was brought up in an earlier post and is a point of conflict is when the Feds raid the parlor, Hickey calls Gondorff by his real name: Henry. So, at this point the con is directed to Snyder who knows Hooker and Gondorff's real identity. Thus, Snyder and Lonnegan think the raid is going on for two different reasons. Lonnegan thinks they're breaking up an illegal bookie operation while Snyder thinks the Feds are busting a con ring. So, it's not out of the realm of possibility that when Snyder gets Lonnegan safely away he might tell Lonnegan the real identities of Shaw and Kelly and the bust is not about the betting parlor, but about a notorious grifter. Not that Lonnegan would do much about it, but it could put additional suspicion in his mind.
The first thing to remember is that the team had to con TWO people — Lonnegan and Snyder. The second thing is that there were no real Feds involved in this; they were part of the sting group also (we just weren't told that ahead of time) and their main purpose was to buffalo Snyder.
As far as Lonnegan knew, Twist was the voice on the phone, and also the man he had seen at the Western Union office. Twist was supposedly making the call from the Western Union office; the call could have gone something like this: "Place it on Lucky Dan in the fourth race" (or whatever race it was) — and then immediately hang up the phone.
Lonnegan knew enough about past-posting to be aware that he had only a couple of minutes to get from the drugstore to the betting parlor in order to get the bet down. He didn't really have time to bandy words if he wanted to get the bet placed before the window closed — and remember too he had already been shut out once before. Since Lonnegan also thought that the man (Twist) was calling from the Western Union shop a short, one-sentence-and-then-hang-up message was in order, since the manager at the Western Union shop obviously couldn't take the chance of someone else in the shop — like the secretary in the outer office — overhearing him making such a call.
Now, as to why Twist was able to show up at the betting office within five or six minutes after making the call from the Western Union office — *THAT* could have been a faux pas that might have alerted Lonnegan that not everything was on the level....but let's leave that possible goof for some other time.
Then, when the fake Feds showed up with Snyder, they had already convinced Snyder that they were using Hooker to get at Gondorff, and that Lonnegan didn't need to be messed up in all this — so Snyder becomes an unwitting accomplice in the scam himself. He is now the "blow-off", being given the task of getting Lonnegan clear on the pretext that Lonnegan was an "innocent bystander" and, by virtue of his being the big banking exec that he was in NYC, he couldn't take the chance of tarnishing his reputation by becoming embroiled in a bust of an illegal gambling parlor. Note too that this tactic also blows off Snyder himself and takes him out of the picture as well.
Keep in mind too that Snyder was not exactly a paragon of law and order, and we have no idea what thoughts were running through his mind at this time. Maybe he thought that by getting Lonnegan away from the trouble he would have made a powerful friend in shady places; or perhaps he was thinking that he could then hold this over Lonnegan's head for a possible blackmail payoff.
So now, cue the bogus gunplay for the benefit of Lonnegan and Snyder; and they take off like someone had set their arses on fire. All Lonnegan can think about at the moment is that he has lost the money; and even if he does come to realize later that the betting shop itself had been a scam and he had been set up, he still believes it was a legitimate bust of Gondorff that went bad. As far as he knows the two main players are now dead — and as I said before, he was using half a million worth of money that wasn't his so he's got more pressing problems to deal with. Snyder also believes that Hooker and Gondorff are dead, although Chicago is his town and no doubt word would eventually get back to him that they hadn't bought it in the basement. But by then Hooker and Gondorff are long gone.
Frankly, they just don't make movies like this any more; and whoever came up with the plotline for this thing had to have been a twisted, sadistic, evil genius.
-"BB"-
Nice summary, BikeBill, but I think the original question posed remains. Simply put, Snyder was not part of the original operation. Gondorff and co. had to improvise him into the plot. Of course, it all works out in the end for the grifters, but how would the sting have worked if Snyder had not involved himself in the caper? It would've been left to one of the con men, it seems, to get Lonnegan out of the "betting parlor." I think that task would've fell to Kid Twist. Whoever had that responsibility would'v had his hands full with Lonnegan as he was inconsolable and fighting Snyder every inch of the way as he's led out of the basement.
shareI had been wondering about all this as well.
The Final Verdict:
The FBI was always part of the con. Their role was to bust in, etc as we know. Twist most likely would have had the job of hustling Lonnegan out as the WU guy would have motive for leaving. Lonnegan, being a 'legit' banker with "half the politicians and judges" in his pocket would have soon realized that, as Snyder says, he can't get mixed up in that. Judges and pols on the pad can do you favors, but if you really step in it they are likely to fade. In a real situation the place would have soon been swarming with dozens of reporters and photographers. NY BANKER CAUGHT IN BOOKIE RAID - TWO MEN KILLED Not good publicity for someone trying to maintain an above board image.
When Snyder became a problem he was just woven into the plot.
Additionally, as it is 'the Feds' that bust the parlor, Lonnegan may have realized that his pull with the locals wouldn't help.
Just for fun: The next time you're caught in an illegal activity try asking the cops if you can just have your money back and go home :)
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I think Gondorff already have the FBI (or something like it) in mind for the blow off. However, once Hooker reveals that Snyder is onto him, Gondorff improvised his plan and incorporated Snyder into the scam, with the added bonus that he now have a real police escorting the mark off the place. That's what a good grifter do, improvised as the situation provided.
shareBy all outward appearances Lonnegan was a respectable New York banker. It would be easy for him to believe that the FBI was getting him out of there to avoid a scandel, something not unheard of back then.
A heart can be broken, but it still keeps a-beatin' just the same.
Win or lose, when the "FBI" busts in Lonnegan would have been ushered out before he realized what was really happening.
A heart can be broken, but it still keeps a-beatin' just the same.
By the way, we forget the great irony is Snyder is a "bunko" detective who is being conned. Priceless.
shareThe con always involved the fake FBI agents. If Lonnegan had bet on Lucky Dan to place then Gondolf wouldn't have authorized the bet and they would have folded the con. That's the purpose of the scene after he first announces the bet and Eddie goes to Gondolf for permission. Gondolf asks Lonnegan if there's a problem and he reiterates that he wants to place half a million dollars on Lucky Dan to win. If Snyder had not been involved to whisk Lonnegan out of the parlour after the fake raid then I think the "normal" con would involve a couple of the fake FBI agents taking Lonnegan back to their ad hoc office in the warehouse district and xplain to him that they could implicate him in the raid but they had no real interest in his involvement in the illegal betting parlour. Then they'd either call him a cab to leave or take him to his hotel. He'd go away thinking that the FBI legitimately raided the parlour, seized all the assests as eveidence, Gondolf and Kelly were dead, and he was just out of luck trying to gain vengence on Gondolf via illegal means.
shareBarney-Robel,
I think you hit the nail on the head for the most reasonable explanation of how the con was supposed to work had Snyder not been "improvised" into the con. You're right, it would've been up to Gondorff not to accept Lonnegan's action if he "placed" his bet on Lucky Dan (Gondorff still would've had to do some fancy footwork to prevent Lonnegan from making his bet). After Lonnegan called Gondorff "a gutless cheat," Gondorff's only reasonable response would've been, "Yep, that's me. Now get out."
I can't agree, however, that the phony FBI men would've brought Lonnegan back to their "headquarters." I can't see the con men hanging out with Lonnegan any longer than necessary, especially after they've taken his money. With a normal mark, once he sees the principles have killed each other the natural response should be to beat a hasty retreat. Lonnegan doesn't run away, and in fact, doesn't want to leave the betting parlor. Without Snyder to guide him outside (which Lonnegan does kicking and screaming), we've concluded, that it would've been up to Twist to somehow urge him to clear out.
This is what I was thinking, also.
Agent Polk, after shooting Henry, yells at Snyder to get Lonnegan out of there. He could just as easily have yelled at one of the other FBI agents to remove Lonnegan, and the result would have been the same.
Having Snyder there to do the work just means they scammed Snyder and got rid of him, as well.
Win-win.
(And yes, I know Polk wasn't a real FBI agent, and he didn't really shoot Henry. This is all shorthand to keep the post readable.)
I think we've cleaned up most of the questionable points of logic in this final scene. Without Snyder's involvement, Hickey would've called on his own "men" to clear out Lonnegan. I think they would've had a more authoritative presence than Kid Twist. They could've "blown off" Lonnegan after a block or two and disappeared. Lonnegan would've griped, as he does with Snyder, but with "Feds" at his elbow, I don't think he would've entertained the idea of going back into the betting parlor.
share[deleted]
"Whether Lonnegan "places" the money for the horse to finish first or second wouldn't matter, because he's not getting it back, regardless. The bet would have been accepted either way.
"Lonnegan's mistaken "place" it on Lucky Dan and horror at losing his money was for the benefit of the audience, not for the overall con."
This is great except for Gandoff's line, "You've gotta keep the con" long after the con is finished. How is Lonnegan going to think he's really lost a race the next day if he reads in the paper his horse came in second? (That is, assuming Lonnegan took Twist's word literally and indeed "placed" it on Lucky Dan)
"But how would the feds get people to leave, you ask, especially Lonnegan?
"First, it's an illegal gambling establishment. The feds are likely to arrest you, and you're certainly not going to get your money back by explaining that you've just won a bet, so please can the federal government pay you off?"
This would be a perfect explanation also if Lonnegan was trying to get out of the den, but he wasn't. In fact, he wanted to go back even after Snyder had pulled him out ("But my money's down there!")
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another thing is, Gondorf probably knew about Snyder from the start, as he had a guy protecting Hooker (the guy that kills Salino).. so if he knew about Salino, he had to have known Snyder was on Hooker's trail too
and now for my alternate ending: WHAT IF.. Lonnegan wins the bet, so $500,000 with 4 to 1 odds, they pay him $2,000,000 back, he leaves happy, and they disappear with his $500,000... the twist is, the 2 million is counterfeit (as we've seen Hooker dealing with earlier in the movie) so they now have $500,000 in clean money.. that would create a real poopstorm for Lonnegan to deal with lol
share
quote Shiddy:
"WHAT IF.. Lonnegan wins the bet, so $500,000 with 4 to 1 odds, they pay him $2,000,000 back, he leaves happy, and they disappear with his $500,000... the twist is, the 2 million is counterfeit."
I would also think that obtaining $500K in counterfeit bills would take quite a bit of effort.
shareActually, I think the "place versus win" blunder was set up so that Lonnegan would be eager to forget the entire situation down the line. It was overkill, but it made the con that much more secure. Think about it, Lonnegan was relieved to be free from the hands of the law despite his monetary loss. Sure he hesitated on his way out, but he was not about to go back inside and face the "Feds"--with or without Snyder's pursuasion. To top it off, never would he be tempted to think about the two million that could have been "his", because it was HE that bungled the bet. To dwell on it would only be embarrassing to him.
Gondorff: "You've got to keep his con even after you take his money, he can't know that you conned him!"
He who conquers himself is mightier than he who conquers a city.
Like you thinking, jwalsh67. But all Lonnegan had to do was read the next day's papers to find out if he won or lost. I think if he had taken Twist literally and "placed" his bet, Gondorff would've been forced to fold the con. What makes the con work is that the first two bets were to win which was supposed to get Lonnegan in the habit of putting his bet on the winner.
I think Lonnegan proves early on he's not a man to forget easily. The fact that he went after the small-time grifters shows he's petty and vindictive. Let's not forget that Lonnegan's last line is not "Let's get outta here!", but "My money's down there!" which would seem to me that is his major concern, not the FBI.
Mr. Farley, I think you and I had this conversation before. I was responding more to another poster who suggested that the "win versus place" bungle was for audience shock value only. To me, it was a necessary and planned part of the con. The crew knew that Lonnegan would place it on Lucky Dan to win, and they took advantage of it so that he would bet incorrectly. As you stated long ago, the next-day papers would report Lucky Dan as coming in second. Lonnegan would not be thinking, "it could have been mine!", because he blew the bet. Are you suggesting that Lonnegan would have gone back into the joint if Snyder hadn't convinced him to leave? Do you think the "win versus place" thing was part of the con? There really are no right or wrong answers. I'd just be curious to hear your opinion.
SPOILER ALERT:
Of course, if you had the displeasure of watching 'The Sting II', which completely emasculated Lonnegan, you would see that Lonnegan supposedly found out that the whole thing was a con. It was awful.
He who conquers himself is mightier than he who conquers a city.
Spoiler Alerts!!!
As you pointed out, Twist doesn't give Lonnegan enough time on the phone to question him, as he simply says "Place it on Lucky Dan." - Click. There's no way for Lonnegan to decipher what the bet should be. He just bets Lucky Dan to win out of "habit." He does, however, pause for a moment before jetting to the betting parlor, so maybe there is some doubt in his mind which way to place the bet. What we do know is that this particular con is based in reality, so we should probably find out how it worked with real deal con men.
The Feds were always part of the con.
This was to blow off Lonnegan so he couldn't get his money back, and think it
was a legitimate raid.
They had to incorporate Snyder into it. Which added more realism.
As for the "place" misdirection, again, this is used so the mark believes that
he is the one who made the honest mistake, so as not to think he was swindled.
In the phone call before the last one, the voice on the phone clearly says
the name of a horse TO WIN, another TO PLACE, and another TO SHOW.
So the seed is planted later when he says: Place it on Lucky Dan, and Lonnegan
makes the error.
Good point about the previous call. The grifters are clearly setting up Lonnegan with differing language. It's not always just such-and-such a horse "to win."
shareHere are the 3 phone calls from Kid Twist to Lonnegan:
Blue Note TO WIN in the 4th race, Naragansett.
In the 6th race at Belmont:
Wrecking Crew TO WIN Black Mischief TO PLACEWhichaway TO SHOW
PLACE IT on Lucky Dan 3rd race at Riverside Park.
Thanks for the info, MarcusWhiteFury. Yes, that dialogue shows that the con involved mixing up the language to confuse Lonnegan. The grifters were lucky that Lonnegan didn't walk up to the window and "place" it on Lucky Dan or they would've had to fold the con. How they could've done that at that late date is anyone's guess, but it seems the mark is so used to placing "winning" bets that Lonnegan took it for granted to bet on Lucky Dan to win, and attributed the error to his own mis-understanding.
shareI think even if they allowed Lonnegan to win the bet,
the FBI raid confiscates the money.
But their way, "you have to keep the con, he can't know he's been taken"
is a little stronger.
And by having Lonnegan realize he is the one who made the mistake, he may not
look as hard to get it back.
MarcusWhiteFury, thank you for your two recent posts, especially the one with the actual dialog on the phone calls. I was trying to remember the exact words he was told by Twist each time he was to make a bet.
Two points I would like to make on this topic are:
(1) Recall the look on Lonnegan's face after he took the "Place it Lucky Dan" call. He seemed puzzled, wondering (at least it looked that way to me) if he was supposed to bet on Lucky Dan to WIN or to come in second place. HE paused for a few seconds before leaving the store to go to the betting parlor.
(2) Didn't the fake FBI raid take place BEFORE the race had actually ended? IIRC, Lonnegan was at the betting window screaming at the clerk to get his money back or change his bet (he had just been told by Twist that he had bet incorrectly) but to no avail. Lonnegan was hustled out of the betting parlor by Snyder before he actually heard the results of the race he had bet on, so even if he had bet correctly he had no real way of collecting his winnings.
They did bust in during the race.
Assuming they are the real FBI and it is an illegal horse parlor,
that money is federal evidence.
So he's not getting it back.
Lonnegan doesn't have to wait for the results because he
KNEW the horse was going to come second, because he is betting on
races that have already been run, and Twist just told him.
"You've nothing to worry about. Half a million dollars to win on Lucky Dan."
"To win? I said place! Place it on Lucky Dan, that horse is going to run second!"
"There's been a mistake, give me my money back!"
Fake FBI and Snyder burst in.
Maybe but Snyder is a loose thread at the end, at least in relation to Lonnegan. If Snyder had any real contact with Lonnegan after he gets him out of the gambling house there could have been real trouble. Snyder knew it was a con. If Lonnegan knew and found out that Hooker was the one who conned his money runner at the beginning of the film things would have definitely have gone south. While the guys quickly disappear I'm sure that Lonnegan has some connections to be able to find those involved in the con and even find out that Hooker and Gondorf are still alive.
The only way for everything to work out in the end is to make sure Snyder has no contact with Lonnegan ever again. The grifters involved would have to spend the rest of their life looking over their shoulder.
turn in you IMDb membership card---u are no longer allowed to post, after asking such an idiotic question....
shareY'know what's funny scrabbler-2, if Lonnegan had correctly bet Lucky Dan to "place," I don't see any way out of it for Gondorff and his crew (of course, the con men know human nature and had to be pretty sure that Lonnegan would bet to win), but they couldn't possibly do the "shut out" again. Once Lonnegan's at the window to bet before the start of the race, it's an all or nothing situation, and the gang has to just hope he doesn't interpret Twist's call correctly.
shareEven if he bet Lucky Dan to place,
the FBI (fake, but he thinks legit),
burst in DURING the race. He's never
going to be able to collect his illegal winnings.
No no no no no....
Kid Twist checked in the back to see what exactly Lonnegan bet...and would just tell him anything different than what he said/bet....!
Don't quite understand "...and would just tell him anything different than what he said/bet"
shareWhat I mean is....if Lonnegan had told Kid Twist he got the bet down in time, for Blue Note to WIN, kid Twist would have said....NO, I told you to bet PLACE, and if he tells him that he made abet for the horse to place, Kid would have said to WIN.
It's like this, whatever Lonnegan tells Twist, Twist will tell him he made the wrong bet....!!!
If he bet the horse to Place, and it won, you get paid off for Place.
So that's not logical.
Kid Twist is in on the con. He's there intentionally.
It doesn't matter about the bet, because the FBI raided an illegal betting parlor.
It's just that this way, Lonnegan made a mistake and can't collect even if there
was no raid.
Waitaminute, Brentnevers, not that I know anything about horse racing, but as far as I know there's no prize for finishing second when you bet your horse to win.
The only problem with the con is that Lonnegan is not remotely afraid when the "FBI" raids the parlor. He's just kind of puzzled about what's going on. He even takes a second to observe Kelly's corpse to make sure he's dead. He doesn't start limping out of there until Snyder starts dragging him out. This kind of goes back to an earlier question: if Snyder hadn't been improvised into the con, who would've been the person to escort Lonnegan out of there? I think we concluded it would've been Twist, but that would have been dangerous for the Kid, walking alone with a angry and murderous gangster, who's main concern is getting his money back.
Obviously, the real wire cons were performed on "legitimate" businessmen, who would run like hell when the "Authorities" raided the place. But in THE STING, the mark is a hardened gangster who's not easily frightened by the law.
If you bet a horse to "place", you are betting that the horse will either win or come in second. You can also bet a horse to "show", meaning that you think it will finish either first, second, or third.
Take a look at this picture of a result/payout scoreboard at a racetrack:
http://equestrisol.com/nl/102910/images/weg-churchilldowns-jump.jpg
Reading it across, the first column shows the results of the race; the second column is the payout for a "win" bet; the third column is for a "place" bet; and the fourth column is for a "show" bet. As you can see, horse #4 won and a straight "win" bet paid 9-1; that is, a $2.00 bet won $18.00. But if you had bet horse #4 to "place"; well, the horse still won but your payout was less...only $8.80 because you had hedged your bet by betting him to either win or come in second. You increase your chances of winning your bet because the horse can finish in one of two positions, but you accept lower payback odds to do so.
In the movie, "Lucky Dan" was going to come in second, but he was (supposedly) such a long-shot to finish even that high that the payout on a half-million dollars would have been a crushing blow to Gondorff and the betting parlor.
-"BB"-
I'm going to go to Belmont Park right now and try this out. Thanks for the insight, BB. Let me see if I can grasp this enigma. So, let's assume Lonnegan did bet Lucky Dan to "Place," would he have collected less than for a winning bet, but still enough to ruin Shaw's operation. So, we're still left with the problem if for some chance, Lonnegan heard Twist correctly and did "place" the bet, Shaw and co. would have had to fold the con on the fly.
Another question: Gondorff/Shaw told Lonnegan he could never pay-off a bet for $1/2 million. Since Lonnegan knows he is going to win, why does he allow the parlor to take his money except to teach Shaw a lesson? Lonnegan's thinking here must be, "When I win and Shaw tells me he doesn't have the money to pay me, I'll work him over and then put him in my employ and make him work off his payments."
They don't have to fold the con if the FBI raids the place before the end of the race. Since all illegal wagers would be kept in "evidence".
Even if he bet to place, there was probably a contingency plan to make off with the funds, as more than one scenario is possible, and the Big Con players know that.
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There was a real con that was worked in the 1920's which took place on a train - I'm not sure if it was run by the Yellow Kid or not - but it went something like this: A wealthy train-riding mark, who was well-researched by the grifters, would see a huge muscular man working out for a bout in his Pullman compartment. The mark would be told by the boxer's "handlers" that the Champ was going to get off the train in St. Louis or wherever to fight an exhibition for some high stakes gamblers. The mark is intrigued, gets off the train in St. Louis and goes to a warehouse where the fight is scheduled. Dozens of gamblers and onlookers crowd the "arena." Soon, a scrawny underweight man enters the ring. The mark thinks there's no way this little guy can whip the Champ so he lays down his money (because it's high stakes there's a minimum layout of several thousand dollars).
The fight starts, the big man is walloping the little man beating him to a pulp and bloodying him up when the little man lands a lucky haymaker and not only flattens the Champ but "kills" him. Suddenly, there's panic. Soon, the police arrive to break up the illegal operation, and the mark finds himself in a perilous situation. One of the "locals" knows a back way out of the warehouse and the mark is only too happy to follow. He flees the scene feeling lucky to escape the wrath of justice, but also leaving his money behind.
I think the fake Feds were always going to be the final part of the con. I remember Gondorf saying something like they had to keep the con even after they had the money, he can't know he's been taken. The part about neutralizing the Snyder threat was added as the situation demanded it.
A heart can be broken, but it still keeps a-beatin' just the same.
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Right. Snyder is the wrinkle to the plot. What's interesting is that Snyder is implicated into the sting itself. He's the guy Gondorff taps to get Lonnegan out of the betting parlor. I'm sure Snyder could have been blown off some easier way by the grifters without him ever knowing about Lonnegan or the big con. Gondorff simply decides to kill two birds with one stone: con Lonnegan and scare off Snyder.
shareA post so nice, you posted it twice.
"'Extremely High Voltage.' Well, I don't need safety gloves, because I'm Homer Simps--" - Frank Grimes
An associated question:
As soon as Lonnegan starts yelling that he made a mistake, the Feds bust in, and ALL THE NOISE STOPS. Well, yes, all the people in the room would be a bit stunned, but JJ's not speaking on the intercom any more - at all - for quite a while, nearly an entire minute before Snyder drags Lonnegan out of the room. Wouldn't Lonnegan get suspicious when the race voice-over just stops talking? Or are we/Lonnegan supposed to think that someone "turned down the radio" to hear what the Feds are saying/doing?
Good point. I don't think it would matter though. Lonnegan is in a room with a couple of dead guys, dozens of "witnesses" and Federal agents. While he doesn't seem to be in a hurry to leave, I don't think he would bother to notice that the live feed from racetrack was no longer playing. More likely that Snyder would notice since he doesn't have as much of a stake in the situation, but he seems more interested in seeing if Hooker and Gondorff are really dead.
shareNot sure if you are "here" on moviechat, as I think yours is a migrated imdb comment, but here's how I have always understood it:
The end game of the con was meant to be:
1. Lonnegan loses the bet because of the miscommunication, "place it all on Lucky Dan" meaning 2nd place, not 1st, so Gondorff and Hooker and the rest have the satisfaction of seeing him frantic and humiliated.
2. They know that he'll eventually figure it out, and come after them, so they reveal to him "it was all a con!" by having the (fake) FBI agents bust in.
3. Lonnegan never finds out the FBI agents were a part of the con. He lives out his life thinking that the grifter Johnny Hooker, whom he'd been trying to kill, got the better of him, but was killed by the FBI in the raid. He has no reason to seek out revenge on Hooker or Gondorff, as they're dead, as far as he knows anyway, and the money is long gone-- taken by the FBI, again as far as he knows.
It's the perfect con. It's the most brilliantly conceived deception ever put onto film. Every single detail dovetails nicely into the next, and Lonnegan is left not only bilked out of $500k (Over $9 million in today's dollars) but he was made to look like a whining, crying ass when it happened, AND he knows full well he was conned but has no recourse for revenge.
I have to agree with you, it's an elaborate and brilliant script. I read somewhere that the screenwriter took over a year working out all the details, he read a lot of old con artist books from the 40's on..one author successfully sued the studio for plagiarism and settled for 300 grand.
For his tireless work, Screenwriter David Ward rightly received the 1973 Academy Award for Best Screenplay.
There is no radio. My understanding is that bookie joints at the time ran exactly how they did in the con... a guy was in the back room reading off a teletype. If this were radio then the Western Union connection wouldn't work since there wouldn't be a delay in the race results.
shareThey weren't real Feds. That was part of the con.
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